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Confused with frost2h please help

6 replies to this topic Started by Vuoq, Nov 16 2012 02:32 PM
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Posted 16 November 2012 - 02:32 PM

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Vuoq
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Hello fellow DK’s Im looking for some clarification to the way I should be playing my frost 2h DK with the Runic Empowerment talent. From what I think I understand, the talent only has a 45% chance to proc with frost strike when two of the same rune is on cooldown. Firstly, when it does proc does that mean it restores the fully-depleted rune completely, meaning both frost runes or both unholy runes or bot death runes etc? since they are paired for the criteria anyway? Right now what I am doing is, starting the boss fight with outbreak and I summon my ghoul while running to the boss , and pop pillar of frost instantly. I think spam as much obliterate as I can, with HB on any rime procs that come my way. However after this I get confused, as now I can use some frost strikes but sometimes KM procs, so is is it better for me to wait say 2-3 seconds left on obliterate to use for the KM proc or should I just use the frost strike. Usually once I use the obliterate again then some frost strike spam, I am left with nothing to press, no runes no runic power, I assume this is because of the RNG of the talent? But should I really be spamming frost strike or only use 1 or 2 to try get the talent to proc obliterate runes. The other thing I would like clarification on, is when and how to use our full rune reset cooldown, Empower rune weapon. The way I see it is, if I go in with my intial rotation and once I have used all the obliterates I can, should I use it then while pillar or frost is still up, to get the most dmg out of it? But then I will have a lot of runic power because of the initial RP built then more with this CD’s runes, so I will easily pass 100 rp? Or If I use my obliterates, then dump the RP , then pop the cooldown, but if the frost strikes used to dump the rp generated some runes, I am not making full use of the cooldown.. I seem to come quite abit behind the other DKs in our group especially at the start of the encounter, when I feel like I have followed the priority correctly and I have literally nothing else to press for dps, and yet they are shooting higher than me. Granted they have the elegon normal sword and I have lfr, and some other small lower ilvl in pieces, but surely it shouldn’t matter that much.. My biggest thing is im not sure if I am losing DPS if I wait for obliterate runes when KM is procced (provided it isn’t like 5+seconds to go) or if I should just use whatever I can. I find that if I use whatever I can during KM, I end up using frost strike more often for KM than I do obliterate.. and that cant be good for dps 2h..but is the alternative better? I have read around and a lot of different answers on this. Sorry for the long post, I really hope someone can help me get my head around all this. Thank you.!

Posted 16 November 2012 - 03:52 PM

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Vlad
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Hey there.

These are all actually excellent questions. It's what makes 2H Frost interesting to play, difficult to play, and frustrating to play.

First of all, when Runic Empowerment procs, it will refresh ONE of the two runes of the same kind, specifically the one that is currently fully depleted. So, if you've got both Unholy runes down (one is at 0%, the other is at 50%), and Runic Empowerment procs, it's going to refresh your 0% Unholy rune.

Secondly, your starting rotation is good. For completeness' sake, I would make a few mentions. Pre-channel Army of the Dead (unless the fight isn't suited for it, such as Elegon where you want to channel it at the end of the second Stage Three, or Will of the Emperor, where it depends on your raid's strategy when you channel it), and pre-pot as well. You should cast your Ghoul right away since he takes a while to get up and running. Pillar of Frost only when you're in range of the boss, and make sure you also use anything else like on-use trinkets, or Blood Fury (if you're an Orc). Now you can go to town with Obliterates, making sure to use Rime procs whenever they come up. After 3 Obliterates, you're going to be out of runes, capped on runic power. Personally, I use Empower Rune Weapon here (yes, wasting the 25 runic power it gives), and follow up with a few more Obliterates (and Rime proc Howling Blasts), until I run out of runes again. Then, I start the "actual" rotation. I don't know if this sequence is truly optimal in terms of maximum DPS, but the wasted runic power seems to me to be heavily outweighed by getting in so many more Obliterates with all cooldowns (and potion) up at once.

Then, you run into the "normal rotation". To get things out of the way, only ever Howling Blast on a Rime proc. That leaves Frost Strike and Obliterate usage. You want to only Frost Strike if you have two runes of the same kind down. This means that you need to watch your runes after every Frost Strike, and see if Runic Empowerment procced or not. Regarding Killing Machine procs, this is where it gets tricky indeed. You don't want to ever use them on Frost Strikes, because Obliterate is basically twice the damage of a Frost Strike. But as you no doubt have discovered, this isn't always easy. Sometimes, you'll just be happily Frost Striking away to dump your runic power and to get some Runic Empowerment procs, when suddenly you get a Killing Machine proc and it's gone on a Frost Strike before you even have a chance to blink.

Get a swing timer addon. I'm going to update the guide today or tomorrow with more of this information, and suggesting an addon. You should get a swing timer addon and never use a Frost Strike within 0.2 seconds before or after a swing finishes. Wait for each swing, see if you get a Killing Machine proc, and then if you didn't, you can use Frost Strike again (provided Runic Empowerment can proc).

The second problem with Killing Machine procs is when you get one and your Obliterate is not available for a number of seconds. Here, you've got two options. Either Frost Strike anyway to keep your rotation going, wasting the KM proc on Frost Strike, or wait for Obliterate. There is a massive amount of contention and debate regarding this point. However, I'd say that you shouldn't generally wait very long for Obliterate. 1-2 seconds is the limit I'd impose. If you have more than that to wait, just use a Frost Strike and keep the rotation going that way. It might waste that particular Killing Machine proc - but that same proc could have been over-ridden anyway by a new proc in the 2-5 seconds you were waiting, so you could have lost it anyway. Also, if you Frost Strike, you're working on proccing Runic Empowerment, which means you're working towards more Obliterates, which is always good.

Something else you can do if you get into the situation of a long CD (so to speak) on Obliterate, and a Killing Machine proc, is Plague Leech and re-apply quickly with Outbreak (assuming both are available), which, in case all you were missing was one rune, allows you to Obliterate right away.

For overall advice, you really really need to look at how you can use your cooldowns (Pillar of Frost and Empower Rune Weapon) to maximum effect, after the initial usage. This means making sure you don't use them when you can't attack, that you always couple a Pillar of Frost with your second potion, ideally also with Heroism/Bloodlust. Also, make sure to use your second Empower Rune Weapon during your second potion, and the afore-mentioned factors, etc. If your guild is one-shotting stuff, and you don't get much practice on encounters, you won't be able to get this technique down, but if you're wiping a lot, always be on the look-out for opportunities.

That ended up being a long post. I don't know how much clearer I made any of it for you - but feel free to repost with any questions or comments :)

Posted 16 November 2012 - 11:44 PM

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Vuoq
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Heya, Firstly thank you for taking the time to read and responding. It has cleared alot up for me, I do use army etc at the start of pull or if called for later by raid leader. However I think my problem was not summoning ghoul quick enough, forgetting he takes awhile to get going, and that when I did use my ERW, I usually waited a fed seconds out of indecision by which time pot and pillar of frost had gone so I miss the chance to maximise the dmg there as you pointed out. I have a built in swing timer with LUI, I do clearly see it, but its just with all the new boss tactics I am having to learn, hof,mogushan and now terrace lol, im trying to focus on tactics while also watching runes etc, it becomes hard to watch how far I am from next swing :P About what you said regarding frost strike and how it works, it makes alot more sense to me now. However you say to watch my runes after each time I frost strike, but in theory since I can use obliterate only if I have a certain ruin combo, if it doesnt light up, I still cant use it, and if obliterate is priority over everything anyway, with exception of rime/disease. Do I really need to watch runes while im frost striking ? What I mean is, it is safe to just spam frost strike a little slowly (so I dont keep spamming if obliterate is up), and just use obliterate as soon as i see the skill is 'ready' ? Something a little off the rotation itself, do you know if a weapon upgrade is the biggest possible upgrade since its alot of extra raw attack power? as opposoed to any other armor piece. I mean ofcourse overall higer str/gear ilvl iis a upgrade but weapon outweighs any piece? Am I correct in assuming that? Just trying to understand how the other DK's are doing alot more dmg, they have slightly better gear in some slots but its mainly the weapon that im lacking on too. Thank you for your help so far, really appreciate it

Posted 17 November 2012 - 12:19 AM

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Vlad
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Heya,

Firstly thank you for taking the time to read and responding.

It has cleared alot up for me, I do use army etc at the start of pull or if called for later by raid leader. However I think my problem was not summoning ghoul quick enough, forgetting he takes awhile to get going, and that when I did use my ERW, I usually waited a fed seconds out of indecision by which time pot and pillar of frost had gone so I miss the chance to maximise the dmg there as you pointed out.

I have a built in swing timer with LUI, I do clearly see it, but its just with all the new boss tactics I am having to learn, hof,mogushan and now terrace lol, im trying to focus on tactics while also watching runes etc, it becomes hard to watch how far I am from next swing Posted Image

About what you said regarding frost strike and how it works, it makes alot more sense to me now. However you say to watch my runes after each time I frost strike, but in theory since I can use obliterate only if I have a certain ruin combo, if it doesnt light up, I still cant use it, and if obliterate is priority over everything anyway, with exception of rime/disease. Do I really need to watch runes while im frost striking ?

What I mean is, it is safe to just spam frost strike a little slowly (so I dont keep spamming if obliterate is up), and just use obliterate as soon as i see the skill is 'ready' ?

Something a little off the rotation itself, do you know if a weapon upgrade is the biggest possible upgrade since its alot of extra raw attack power? as opposoed to any other armor piece. I mean ofcourse overall higer str/gear ilvl iis a upgrade but weapon outweighs any piece? Am I correct in assuming that? Just trying to understand how the other DK's are doing alot more dmg, they have slightly better gear in some slots but its mainly the weapon that im lacking on too.

Thank you for your help so far, really appreciate it


Hey.

Glad you found something helpful in what I've said. You are right about the rune-watching, it's not really needed and you can just use Frost Strike to proc Runic Empowerment if Obliterate is unavailable.

You are certainly right, there are a lot of things to watch out for and a lot of stuff to keep track of, so it's hard to also always be looking at your swing timer.

A weapon upgrade is a huge upgrade. Ask Mr Robot, for example, gives weapon DPS a weight of 9.1, whereas Strength is 2.72. So, as you can see, it's a huge upgrade. This is mainly because of the fact that Obliterate scales so well with weapon damage. So, having a better weapon will certainly be a gigantic DPS increase, much more so than a few stats here in there. The normal version of Starshatter is a 477 weapon DPS increase over the Looking For Raid version. At the same time, normal move vs. LFR of Nullification Greathelm offers 131 Strength, 96 Crit, and 73 Haste. So, the Starshatter upgrade is worth 4340 points, whereas the Nullification Greathelm upgrade is worth 591 points. This is just rough maths I did here in 30 seconds, so don't quote me on it, but you get the idea.

Again, glad to help, let me know if you have any other questions :)

Posted 17 November 2012 - 01:21 AM

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Vuoq
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Thats great news, Because I know im not perfect with my rotation and I was not coupling my offensives together with pots etc as much as I should but the huge difference in dps still felt insane to me, but it really helps to know that lfr weapon and regular weapon is a huge boost, I mean when I got my lfr weapon with all other gear the same at the time, (up from heroic dungeon wep), my dps went up by 20k just with that. Thanks again for your help, I will try what I have learnt in raid tomorrow and next few days !

Posted 11 December 2012 - 05:25 PM

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ok, i see something interesting here. weapons and weapons and weapon upgrades. what do you say on sha of fear LFR axe gemmed with 500 str. gem versus a normal 489 starshatter? and in your opinion what is more worthy to upgrade in this matter: 483 gemmed axe or 489 sword. yours always Che.

Edited by cheguevarra, 11 December 2012 - 05:25 PM.

Posted 11 December 2012 - 05:59 PM

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Vlad
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ok, i see something interesting here. weapons and weapons and weapon upgrades. what do you say on sha of fear LFR axe gemmed with 500 str. gem versus a normal 489 starshatter? and in your opinion what is more worthy to upgrade in this matter: 483 gemmed axe or 489 sword.

yours always Che.


Ask Mr. Robot's stat weights currently calculate that it is a best to use Normal (489) Starshatter instead of LFR Sha of Fear weapon with the legendary gem. The difference is pretty minor, but basically the 500 Strength from the gem doesn't make up for the loss of DPS from weapon DPS.

So, what I would advise in this case is to upgrade your Starshatter.

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