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Prot Pally Dmg

5 replies to this topic Started by Eazyboy, Nov 21 2012 04:48 AM Damge tanking
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Posted 21 November 2012 - 04:48 AM

#1
Eazyboy
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hey there, ive have had a pally tank sice FL cata and and back in cata dps was never a problem with me until MoP hit now when i raid people seem to take my aggro so easily bcuz the damage im dealing is low i follow the rotation and am ilvl 466 but i cant seem to hold aggro anymore help me

Posted 22 November 2012 - 03:32 AM

#2
Auracle
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Holy run-on sentence Batman. :P

Ok there is a lot of required information missing from this for people to pinpoint possible areas of issue, but I'll try some basics.

1) Are you talking trash, or bosses?
2) Careful with DPS vs TPS (threat per second). They are correlated, but simply because your DPS is low does not mean that you should automatically have threat issues.
3) Paladin tanks are, (this is very general so take with a grain of salt) a comparatively low opening burst DPS/TPS tanking class this expansion. However, you only have a couple of extra seconds of ramp up time, so as long as your DPS aren't being idiots, this should be a complete non-issue.
4) You need to have a firm grasp of vengeance mechanics if you are tanking this expansion. Read the guides here, and since you're a pally, go to maintankadin.failsafedesign.com and delve into the wealth of info over there. Also www.sacredduty.net, invaluable resource, Theck is a legend.

Aside from the above I cant think of much elswe that will help.

General tanking skills will win out every time unless you're utterly outgeared by your DPS and they have no respect for you whatsoever. At least at the entry level of tanking, as you gear up, you will need to be prepared for the occasional threat break, some difficulties on large pulls etc. Use your toolkit, you have HoPs, salvs, stuns, some interesting glyphs. Get threatplates so you can easily see which mobs on large pulls you have weaker threat on, use marks to let dps know which targets to focus.

I'm kind of throwing everything I can think of at you, hopefully something will help with your issue.

Good luck!

Posted 31 January 2013 - 10:39 AM

#3
Polini
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Auracle.
3. You said pala tanks got weak opening. But if you glyph Holy avenger and use it at the pull your dps goes straight up. On like Elagon HC i open with 100k dps for the first 10sec. (Elagon does start with a breath i think which gives a nice starting vengeance.)

But i'm a wondering aswell if anyone could look for increasing my dps (what i could change or do).
Yesterday we started on Will of Emperor HC, we had 1 attempt from 8.55 min and 42% remaining on boss. My Dps as pala tank was 95k but when i look at WorldOfLogs alot of palas are at 140k ish. Although some has to do with gear (im at 490 equipped and dont got DPS trinkets to equip as most tanks seem to be doing)
My armory: http://eu.battle.net...Elvera/advanced
WorldOfLogs for the good attempt: http://www.worldoflo.../?s=9388&e=9924

I know that i should be using Hammer of Rightoues more (not quite used to doing it, useally a dps does it and im only 5 weeks (4weeks raiding) on wow after a year break and back then i never had to do it.
And i also noticed holy wrath doing slighty more dmg on single target then a consecration (so ill swap those in my bars).
But is there any other way of increasing my dmg? I heard some people gain Vengeance on some bosses like spirit kings by getting hit on purpose by Annahilate, is there some similar trick on Will of Emporer? (cause not avoiding the Dev. combo doesnt seem smart caus of debuff and lack of the O strike)

Posted 02 February 2013 - 06:49 PM

#4
Casterly
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I started raiding when i was in a similar situation to OP, so my experiences may give some assistance. At 466 item level as a paladin, your stats are let's just say terrible. But with some toying around with gear readily available in the heroics you should be able to get the the following stats: 7.5% hit ~9% expertise In order to keep threat we paladin's need to hit every single thing we can, the best way to get that expertise up at lower gear levels is find ways to get around it. Like a Ghost Iron Dragonling, I used the Dragonling until i was 2 or 3 in heroic modes. The best advice i can give to up that expertise is run LFR, try and get those tier pieces, the helmet and shoulders give so much Expertise that they are just so good for gearing up. Some DPS (i know this because i used to play dps, i always wanted to squeeze the meters, even if it annoyed the hell out of tanks) just burst right at the start, use avenging wrath, pre-pot (strength potion ofc) do whatever you can to get that little bit of dps right at the start of a fight. Polini, on Will of the Emperor, there really is nothing you can do to give an instant boost to your vengeance, the one thing i could say (warn your healers before you do it) is butt-tank for a hit or 2. This might solve your vengeance query.

Posted 03 February 2013 - 02:16 AM

#5
Lightrox
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3) Paladin tanks are, (this is very general so take with a grain of salt) a comparatively low opening burst DPS/TPS tanking class this expansion.
4) ... Theck is a legend.

....Get threatplates so you can easily see which mobs on large pulls you have weaker threat on, use marks to let dps know which targets to focus.


Threat Plates (part of Tidy Plates) are a must! And I have to agree Theck is a legend. I have followed his advice (with some small tweaking for group/playstyle) and have been extremely successful.

3. You said pala tanks got weak opening. But if you glyph Holy avenger and use it at the pull your dps goes straight up.

...But i'm a wondering aswell if anyone could look for increasing my dps (what i could change or do).


Pally's are comparatively weak openers, as compared to say a Blood DK (which I tank w/ fulltime). However, if you're stats are balanced right, you'll be VERY close to any other tanks' threat most times. DKs are such beasts btw, b/c they can spread their diseases to and entire pack. If you want to out threat a DK tank, you have to watch the adds and grab them as they switch. Each add gives you more vengence, and the tank with the more vengence will steadily pull the remaining adds aggro.

I do however have to STRONGLY DISAGREE with running Glyph of Holy Avenger except for certain boss pulls. With an 8sec taunt CD, taking a smart multi-target spell that can be used as an opener I feel can be detrimental overall. It *IS* however a DPS boost if attacking a single target. I still prefer not to use it and have not threat issues, regardless of dps/ot tank gear.

...
At 466 item level as a paladin, your stats are let's just say terrible. But with some toying around with gear readily available in the heroics you should be able to get the the following stats:
7.5% hit
~9% expertise

In order to keep threat we paladin's need to hit every single thing we can, the best way to get that expertise up at lower gear levels is find ways to get around it. Like a Ghost Iron Dragonling, I used the Dragonling until i was 2 or 3 in heroic modes.
....
Polini, on Will of the Emperor, there really is nothing you can do to give an instant boost to your vengeance, the one thing i could say (warn your healers before you do it) is butt-tank for a hit or 2. This might solve your vengeance query.


I agree with Casterly's premise, but don't think he goes far enough. As a general mindset, forget your old pally ways. You are now a tank who must LAND attacks to stay alive. Pallys are balanced in such a way now you really can play 3 different styles. However, if you're looking for the most bang for you buck and to really hold threat and give your healers a helping hand, here's what you're looking for:

Stats - Go Strength! I don't run any Stamina buffs. Early on you may want a little extra stamina, but I made the switch to Strength pretty early gear wise and never looked back. Strength Flask, Strenth Pots, Strength food, Strength Trinkets:
  • The 'X' factor in all of this is how much stamina you want? I choose 28000 stamina overall. It works for me, and I'd recommend it as a good starting point.
  • 7.5% Hit
  • ~15% Exp (yes 15%. For those who disagree, its not only a dps loss, but a healing loss as well).
  • Haste
  • whatevers left put into mastery

Seal:
  • You should be using Seal of Insight. Yes I know that seems dumb, you want more Threat. Seal of Insight beats out both others in threat unless you have a **LOT** of mobs stacked up.
  • You can switch to the others generally only if threat is not a problem, your party/raid is staying topped of constantly, and you are trying to boost your dps on a single target or on an extreme amount of mobs stacked up.
Glyphs
  • Alabaster Shield - Boosts your DPS & Long term threat
  • Battle Healer - Heals a LOT which means LOTs of threat
  • Your choice (I typically use Divine Protection)
Talents
  • Divine Purpose - Unless there is a specific high dmg point your CDs can't absorb, i recommend DP. Its up more often giving you more ShoTR hits (or WoG) which boosts DPS / Threat.
  • Holy Prism - With Vengence, this can be a huge threat boost. It hits your target pretty hard, then heals 5 party members (smart heals) at the same time.
The purpose behind all of this counter-intuitive setup is this. You make sure your hit, everytime. Everytime you swing your weapon. This means more threat and more holy power. You do not recieve Holy Power if you miss. With so much more Holy Power, you're causing more threat and you're also keeping your Shield of the Righteous up more, meaning you take less dmg. While you're taking less damage and doing more DPS, you're turning a good portion of that into healing. Most fights I now heal for around 50% of what one of healers does in a single target fight. If tanking multiple targets, I can heal equal to the healers or even lead the meters (sometimes by a good portion). That much extra healing helps you hold aggro a lot better and also means you're helping to keep your raid/party alive.

These are obviously what work for ME. I realize they don't work for everyone, but thats the beauty of paladins now. There is no one "set" way.. Of course I feel my way is the best way :) Check out the Theck threads, as he can show you the math behind it...

Posted 05 February 2013 - 02:42 PM

#6
Casterly
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Hm i don't agree with the last few bits for talents. Holy prism is definitly amazing for bosses like Heroic Elegon if you are the glorified add tank, which i am in my guild. But perhaps to boost damage, atleast single target you should use Execution Sentence, then AoE using Hammer is the way to go. I tend to use prism because of it's utility on most heroic fights (personal preferance, they are all excellent talents, in a melee heavy group atleast for healing assist, hammer is much better.) The Divine Purpose is completely wrong, i used it for Heroic Gara'jal progression but then after that i switched right back to Holy Avenger, much better control of your SHotR buff uptime.

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