Ghuerilla

LW>FS and Stamp>AMoC?

21 posts in this topic

Hello, I have run into a weird situation simming my character.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/arthas/Extortation/advanced

 

I ran 4 different sims in this gear: 1) Stamp/FS. 2) Stamp/LW. 3) AMoC/LW. 4) AMoC/FS.

 

Stamp/FS: 29783

Stamp/LW: 30654

AMoC/LW: 30647

AMoC/FS: 30131.

 

Clearly for me the sims show that stamp/LW is actually the best choice! My simcraft is up to date and everything, nothing seems off in my settings, however every time I have received a new piece of gear, for the past 10 pieces or so, I have simmed myself and always Stamp/LW has come out on top. Is this just an anomaly specific to my gear or could Stamp/LW actually be better than AMoC/FS?

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Not sure what settings you have simc setup with, but this is what I get when I simmed you:

Edit: inyGGyI.png

Here's the results with the correct APL.

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Thank you for these results, I had not tested anything together with SF yet as I always go TotH so that explains those results, however it seems strange that Toth/Crows/Bar/FS is above Toth/Stamp/GT/LW? In any case, the default Toth/Stamp/GT/LW setup that I have been using is only 264 DPS off the much harder to use SF/Crows/Bar/FS so is it safe to assume that my setup is still currently the best to use at least for single target considering that the extra 264 DPS will probably end up being negated by movement within fights? 

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Thank you for these results, I had not tested anything together with SF yet as I always go TotH so that explains those results, however it seems strange that Toth/Crows/Bar/FS is above Toth/Stamp/GT/LW? In any case, the default Toth/Stamp/GT/LW setup that I have been using is only 264 DPS off the much harder to use SF/Crows/Bar/FS so is it safe to assume that my setup is still currently the best to use at least for single target considering that the extra 264 DPS will probably end up being negated by movement within fights? 

You know GT and Barrage cast on cooldown are a DPS loss, right?

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I never use barrage for single target but I will use GT only if BA, ES, Crows/Stamp, and ET are all on CD and there are no TotH procs.

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I never use barrage for single target but I will use GT only if BA, ES, Crows/Stamp, and ET are all on CD and there are no TotH procs.

Did you specify for simcraft to do that too?

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Not sure how to do that :/ I read a basic guide on Altered-Time on how to use Simcraft but I'm pretty clueless about how to do anything advanced. Anywhere good to read up on this?

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I'm wondering though if LW will be more viable for fights like gruul and oregorger (ST with a decent amount of movement) with the 2 and 4 piece. Also, it's not that SF is hard to use, it's that TotH is more practical to use for movement and multidotting.

I'd give you my APL, but I'm on mobile for the next 2 hours for class and can't access my simc profiles. However, if you look in Azor's guide, I took the APL he used for his simcrafting and you find it pretty easily.

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Not sure how to do that :/ I read a basic guide on Altered-Time on how to use Simcraft but I'm pretty clueless about how to do anything advanced. Anywhere good to read up on this?

The official simcraft documentation is good, but can be overwhelming. https://code.google.com/p/simulationcraft/wiki/DocumentationTOC

 

You can just piece it together from existing simcraft APL:

 

actions+=/glaive_toss,if=!buff.thrill_of_the_hunt.react

 

This will make sure GT is used only when there's no TotH proc, and to ensure it's used only when BA / ES / AMoC / Stampede are on cooldown, just place it below them in APL. Can also add a focus limit:

 

actions+=/glaive_toss,if=!buff.thrill_of_the_hunt.react&focus>30

 

To make sure you always have focus for BA / ES after GT. 

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Ok, now that I'm back, here's the APL that I use:

actions=auto_shot
actions+=/arcane_torrent,if=focus.deficit>=30
actions+=/blood_fury
actions+=/berserking
actions+=/potion,name=draenic_agility,if=(((cooldown.stampede.remains<1)&(cooldown.a_murder_of_crows.remains<1))&(trinket.stat.any.up|buff.archmages_greater_incandescence_agi.up))|target.time_to_die<=25
actions+=/call_action_list,name=aoe,if=active_enemies>1
actions+=/stampede,if=buff.potion.up|(cooldown.potion.remains&(buff.archmages_greater_incandescence_agi.up|trinket.stat.any.up))|target.time_to_die<=25
actions+=/a_murder_of_crows
actions+=/black_arrow,if=!ticking
actions+=/explosive_shot
actions+=/dire_beast
actions+=/arcane_shot,if=buff.thrill_of_the_hunt.react&focus>35&cast_regen<=focus.deficit|dot.serpent_sting.remains<=3|target.time_to_die<4.5
actions+=/glaive_toss
actions+=/barrage
actions+=/powershot
actions+=/explosive_trap
# Cast a second shot for steady focus if that won't cap us.
actions+=/cobra_shot,if=buff.pre_steady_focus.up&buff.steady_focus.remains<5&(14+cast_regen)<=focus.deficit
actions+=/arcane_shot,if=focus>=80|talent.focusing_shot.enabled
actions+=/focusing_shot
actions+=/cobra_shot

actions.aoe=stampede,if=buff.potion.up|(cooldown.potion.remains&(buff.archmages_greater_incandescence_agi.up|trinket.stat.any.up|buff.archmages_incandescence_agi.up))
actions.aoe+=/explosive_shot,if=buff.lock_and_load.react&(!talent.barrage.enabled|cooldown.barrage.remains>0)
actions.aoe+=/barrage
actions.aoe+=/black_arrow,if=!ticking
actions.aoe+=/explosive_shot,if=active_enemies<5
actions.aoe+=/explosive_trap,if=!ticking
actions.aoe+=/a_murder_of_crows
actions.aoe+=/dire_beast
actions.aoe+=/multishot,if=buff.thrill_of_the_hunt.react&focus>55&cast_regen<=focus.deficit|dot.serpent_sting.remains<=5|target.time_to_die<4.5
actions.aoe+=/glaive_toss
actions.aoe+=/powershot
actions.aoe+=/cobra_shot,if=buff.pre_steady_focus.up&buff.steady_focus.remains<5&focus+14+cast_regen<80
actions.aoe+=/multishot,if=focus>=70|talent.focusing_shot.enabled
actions.aoe+=/focusing_shot
actions.aoe+=/cobra_shot

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Ok, now that I'm back, here's the APL that I use:

actions=auto_shot
actions+=/arcane_torrent,if=focus.deficit>=30
actions+=/blood_fury
actions+=/berserking
actions+=/potion,name=draenic_agility,if=(((cooldown.stampede.remains<1)&(cooldown.a_murder_of_crows.remains<1))&(trinket.stat.any.up|buff.archmages_greater_incandescence_agi.up))|target.time_to_die<=25
actions+=/call_action_list,name=aoe,if=active_enemies>1
actions+=/stampede,if=buff.potion.up|(cooldown.potion.remains&(buff.archmages_greater_incandescence_agi.up|trinket.stat.any.up))|target.time_to_die<=25
actions+=/a_murder_of_crows
actions+=/black_arrow,if=!ticking
actions+=/explosive_shot
actions+=/dire_beast
actions+=/arcane_shot,if=buff.thrill_of_the_hunt.react&focus>35&cast_regen<=focus.deficit|dot.serpent_sting.remains<=3|target.time_to_die<4.5
actions+=/glaive_toss
actions+=/barrage
actions+=/powershot
actions+=/explosive_trap
# Cast a second shot for steady focus if that won't cap us.
actions+=/cobra_shot,if=buff.pre_steady_focus.up&buff.steady_focus.remains<5&(14+cast_regen)<=focus.deficit
actions+=/arcane_shot,if=focus>=80|talent.focusing_shot.enabled
actions+=/focusing_shot
actions+=/cobra_shot

actions.aoe=stampede,if=buff.potion.up|(cooldown.potion.remains&(buff.archmages_greater_incandescence_agi.up|trinket.stat.any.up|buff.archmages_incandescence_agi.up))
actions.aoe+=/explosive_shot,if=buff.lock_and_load.react&(!talent.barrage.enabled|cooldown.barrage.remains>0)
actions.aoe+=/barrage
actions.aoe+=/black_arrow,if=!ticking
actions.aoe+=/explosive_shot,if=active_enemies<5
actions.aoe+=/explosive_trap,if=!ticking
actions.aoe+=/a_murder_of_crows
actions.aoe+=/dire_beast
actions.aoe+=/multishot,if=buff.thrill_of_the_hunt.react&focus>55&cast_regen<=focus.deficit|dot.serpent_sting.remains<=5|target.time_to_die<4.5
actions.aoe+=/glaive_toss
actions.aoe+=/powershot
actions.aoe+=/cobra_shot,if=buff.pre_steady_focus.up&buff.steady_focus.remains<5&focus+14+cast_regen<80
actions.aoe+=/multishot,if=focus>=70|talent.focusing_shot.enabled
actions.aoe+=/focusing_shot
actions.aoe+=/cobra_shot

But it uses Barrage / GT on cooldown =(

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But it uses Barrage / GT on cooldown =(

Not necessarily.  The mean fight length is 450s, and using the highest dps profile (SF/Crows/Bar/FS) it uses barrage an average of 17.5 times out of a possible 22.5.  I will check into modifying the APL to see if I can get something higher though.  I'll also have to look into differences caused by the 2/4 set (though only the 2 set modifies the rotation) to see if I can find any discrepancies there.

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Not necessarily.  The mean fight length is 450s, and using the highest dps profile (SF/Crows/Bar/FS) it uses barrage an average of 17.5 times out of a possible 22.5.  I will check into modifying the APL to see if I can get something higher though.  I'll also have to look into differences caused by the 2/4 set (though only the 2 set modifies the rotation) to see if I can find any discrepancies there.

By "on cooldown" I meant "use it every time when enough focus and no higher priority shots available". Of course it's not used exactly on cooldown, it has lowest priority. 

 

My point is, using Barrage in such a way is a DPS loss over not using it at all: simcraft result

 

If we're gonna simm Barrage, we should do it in a way that would reflect its real life usage: only when there's no multistrike procs and when casting Barrage will not delay ES / BA / AMoC. 

 

Creating such a long list of conditions would be arduous, and not likely to result in a big DPS gain. 

It's hard to use Barrage in a perfect way in the game, and it's hard to explain to simcraft how to do it. The simplest way is to just not sim Barrage at all. 

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Creating the conditions actually wasn't all too hard, just had to think for a bit.

actions+=/glaive_toss,if=!buff.thrill_of_the_hunt.react&if=!trinket.stat.any.up&((if=focus<30&(cooldown.black_arrow.remains>4|cooldown.a_murder_of_crows.remains>4))|(if=focus<20&cooldown.explosive_shot.remains>2))
actions+=/barrage,if=!buf.thrill_of_the_hunt.react&if=!trinket.stat.any.up&((if=focus<75&(cooldown.black_arrow.remains>5|cooldwon.a_murder_of_crows.remains>4))|(if=focus<70&cooldown.explosive_shot.remains>2))

This uses GT if: 1) TotH isn't up, 2) No trinket procs, and then the compound condition 3) if focus is less than 30 and BA's cd is more than 4s or AMoC's cd is more than 4s OR if focus is less than 20 and ES's cd is more than 2s.

Barrage has the same parameters, but with the focus values adjusted to fit the different cost and the 3s channel.

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Creating the conditions actually wasn't all too hard, just had to think for a bit.

actions+=/glaive_toss,if=!buff.thrill_of_the_hunt.react&if=!trinket.stat.any.up&((if=focus<30&(cooldown.black_arrow.remains>4|cooldown.a_murder_of_crows.remains>4))|(if=focus<20&cooldown.explosive_shot.remains>2))
actions+=/barrage,if=!buf.thrill_of_the_hunt.react&if=!trinket.stat.any.up&((if=focus<75&(cooldown.black_arrow.remains>5|cooldwon.a_murder_of_crows.remains>4))|(if=focus<70&cooldown.explosive_shot.remains>2))

This uses GT if: 1) TotH isn't up, 2) No trinket procs, and then the compound condition 3) if focus is less than 30 and BA's cd is more than 4s or AMoC's cd is more than 4s OR if focus is less than 20 and ES's cd is more than 2s.

Barrage has the same parameters, but with the focus values adjusted to fit the different cost and the 3s channel.

Nice, so what are the results? And how often each ability gets used in a 300 sec +/- 20% fight?

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Nice, so what are the results? And how often each ability gets used in a 300 sec +/- 20% fight?

Am running the sims now, just waiting on them.  I'm comparing both APL's, but just need to narrow down a select few talent combos to trim the time (no EM, maybe LW for 2pc sims, only TotH).

 

Edit: I've messed up the logic on the condition somehow, working on fixing that.

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Ok, I've figured out my logic error after thinking about it for a bit, the multiple if= statements was the issue.  I should have set the conditions all using the if= statement in the beginning and separating them as I did instead of having an if statement for each condition.  The correct APL modification is as follows:

actions+=/glaive_toss,if=!buff.thrill_of_the_hunt.react&!trinket.stat.any.up&((focus<30&(cooldown.black_arrow.remains>4|cooldown.a_murder_of_crows.remains>4))|(focus<20&cooldown.explosive_shot.remains>2))
actions+=/barrage,if=!buff.thrill_of_the_hunt.react&!trinket.stat.any.up&((focus<75&(cooldown.black_arrow.remains>5|cooldown.a_murder_of_crows.remains>4))|(focus<70&cooldown.explosive_shot.remains>2))

Currently simming this vs without this condition on LW vs FS, SF vs TotH, Crows vs Stampede, and GT vs Barrage for a total of 32 profiles at 10k iterations each, 300s +/- 20% variance.  However, I've also noticed that this has a 70% uptime on Explosive Trap, so............

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Well, its working so far.  

oHTyd3N.png

The APL wins out by ~120 dps.

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Well, its working so far.  

oHTyd3N.png

The APL wins out by ~120 dps.

Also need to add the APLs without Barrage and GT whatsoever. Something tells me the overall gain is around 100 DPS, which brings me to my point: not worth using at all at the risk of messing something up. GT is harder to mess up, but is 100 DPS really worth speccing it for specific fights with only one target?

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Sure it might work, but if I put in the effort I could probably make another improvement with a similar or greater gain that would negate the effects of yours, and then another person could come around and screw that up because that's what happens when you deal with sub-1% changes for the most part.

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