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SimCraft Haste > Mastery

10 replies to this topic Started by Merq, Nov 28 2012 11:25 PM
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Posted 28 November 2012 - 11:25 PM

#1
Merq
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I've read tons and tons of guides, especially the ones by Zygam, but I cannot yield the same results as he is stating in SimCraft. I might need a SimCraft tutorial.

No matter how I reforge my character, or what gems I use, EVERY time I SimCraft my character, Haste scales higher than Mastery. So then I go enter those values into AskMrRobot for example, and it tells me to go full Haste gems and remove all my Mastery gems to meet the new scales.

Am I doing something wrong? You can't even use my current armory stats because I'm gemmed all Intellect red gems for now because I have been regemming over and over and over trying to figure out how these other Affliction locks are getting the hit cap, haste to 4717, and keeping mastery above 60%-65%. I'm ilvl 492 and feel I should be able to meet these stats easily. I'm going broke buying gems over and over so I'm looking for suggestions before I make my next move.

What's going on? Should I actually use haste gems? Follow the SimCraft weights with higher haste than mastery? Is my character just unique in the Affliction community and needs haste instead of mastery?

Why is my SimCraft saying Haste is higher when you sim my character? Am I checking a wrong option? Zygam's sims seem to never have haste higher.

My most recent sim shows:


Int 4.13
SP 3.36
Hit 1.74
Crit 1.153
Haste - 2.81
Mastery - 2.22

Here's my armory - but don't look at the gems and reforges right now. Just note the gear and maybe suggest what I should try. The reforges and gems are not set correctly because I have been continuously changing them to try to reach 15% hit and 4717 haste WITHOUT reforging out of mastery. I don't think it's possible. I'd have to gem high haste or reforge my mastery out and I don't see any top warlocks reforging out of mastery or gemming haste.

http://us.battle.net...h/Viti/advanced

Edited by Merq, 28 November 2012 - 11:29 PM.

Posted 29 November 2012 - 12:43 AM

#2
schmearcampain
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This guy makes a pretty good argument for haste even though he still doesn't value it over mastery. http://us.battle.net...opic/7200061325 Not really answering your question though, is it? I just read it this morning and found it really interesting.

Posted 29 November 2012 - 02:45 AM

#3
Gravyspasm
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playing devil's advocate for a moment, lets say that haste is better overall than mastery.

have you seen the thresholds that lie beyond 4717?

using the haste spreadsheet done by user Keldion @ EJ

the next one is 6400, for an extra tick of Agony.

then 6637 for UA. If you want another tick of drain soul you need 8080 (found IV user Keyz, here). After that is 9211 for an extra tick of corruption.

so then we're trying to hit 6637 for that extra UA and Agony.

Trying to get an additional 1,683 haste out of our gear while maintaining 15% hit, but not reforging out mastery?

1446 if we only want the agony.

So what does you sim say the dps increase will be hitting those plateaus over the current mastery heavy build we use now?


edit: and you know already that you have to hit those numbers to make a full tilt boogie haste spec work. the only thing we'll pick up being over 4717 and under 6400 is a slightly faster UA cast....and that .02 sec time saver isn't going to do me as much good as a basket full of mastery.

Edited by Gravyspasm, 29 November 2012 - 02:48 AM.

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 02:48 PM

#4
Zagam
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Gravy pretty much nailed it. I'll throw my nickel in. Haste thresholds are neat concepts, but because of our dynamic system with Pandemic and DoT power management, DoTs rarely run their course. Haste and Mastery are very close in value at lower ilvls (463-490) but around 490, Mastery takes over and increases exponentially. Rather than try to convince everyone of this math, I simply tell them to shoot for the 4717 threshold to gain additional ticks of all 3 DoTs that increase to the next threshold under Bloodlust while keeping them pushing their Mastery stat up. Mastery and Haste are equal in value until you push over that 490 ilvl hold. There are always new haste thresholds, but they're not terribly meaningful in the grand scheme of things. In single target fights, Haste tends to hold its own a bit better, but Mastery will still push it around a bit. If there is more than one target, forget it...Mastery is king. More DoTs = more damage = more benefit from Mastery. Regardless of Haste vs Mastery, let's all just agree on one thing...*&$% all that gear with Crit on it. I'm looking at you, Valor boots/legs.

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 04:07 PM

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JvChequer
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Regardless of Haste vs Mastery, let's all just agree on one thing...*&$% all that gear with Crit on it. I'm looking at you, Valor boots/legs.


^
It's impressive the amount of crit gear ingame, it's pretty annoying.

Hello.

Posted 29 November 2012 - 06:49 PM

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Kravn
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I'm beginning to doubt Simcraft's modeling a bit anyway. While I suspect the above arguments are correct with regard to stat weights (e.g. Mastery is king) we have a roster of very skilled DPS at similar gear levels, and we're seeing very different classes dominating than what Simcraft would suggest. Right now, nobody can touch our enchancement shaman, for example, who on a single target fight, handily outperforms his simcraft maximum as do all three of our Shadow Priests (their Mind Sear buff was insane). Warlocks seem to be doing fine, but but consistently lower than where Simcraft would place us in the hierarchy. I don't doubt the warlock modelings - It seems like we get a lot of simcraft love...I just feel like it underrates some other classes.

Posted 29 November 2012 - 08:29 PM

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Boradan
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I'm beginning to doubt Simcraft's modeling a bit anyway. While I suspect the above arguments are correct with regard to stat weights (e.g. Mastery is king) we have a roster of very skilled DPS at similar gear levels, and we're seeing very different classes dominating than what Simcraft would suggest.

Right now, nobody can touch our enchancement shaman, for example, who on a single target fight, handily outperforms his simcraft maximum as do all three of our Shadow Priests (their Mind Sear buff was insane). Warlocks seem to be doing fine, but but consistently lower than where Simcraft would place us in the hierarchy. I don't doubt the warlock modelings - It seems like we get a lot of simcraft love...I just feel like it underrates some other classes.


Gotta agree with this.
Currently doing 10 man raiding alongside a hunter and a shadowpriest. The 3 of us are consistently close in DPS with the top damage depending on the fight. Both out-gear me by 3-4 ilvls, but both are punching waaay above the simulationcraft results. According to simulationcraft, I should be punching out more than 50% higher DPS than them. Not gonna happen. Ever.
I think simulationcraft is simply set up better for warlocks. Locks DEFINITELY seem to have more work put into the simcrafting

Posted 29 November 2012 - 09:47 PM

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Merq
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Gravy pretty much nailed it. I'll throw my nickel in.

Haste thresholds are neat concepts, but because of our dynamic system with Pandemic and DoT power management, DoTs rarely run their course. Haste and Mastery are very close in value at lower ilvls (463-490) but around 490, Mastery takes over and increases exponentially. Rather than try to convince everyone of this math, I simply tell them to shoot for the 4717 threshold to gain additional ticks of all 3 DoTs that increase to the next threshold under Bloodlust while keeping them pushing their Mastery stat up. Mastery and Haste are equal in value until you push over that 490 ilvl hold. There are always new haste thresholds, but they're not terribly meaningful in the grand scheme of things. In single target fights, Haste tends to hold its own a bit better, but Mastery will still push it around a bit. If there is more than one target, forget it...Mastery is king. More DoTs = more damage = more benefit from Mastery.

Regardless of Haste vs Mastery, let's all just agree on one thing...*&$% all that gear with Crit on it. I'm looking at you, Valor boots/legs.


It seems everyone has missed my primary questions although I appreciate the feedback given. The gear I have on, even though it's 492, cannot reforge into 4717 haste no matter what I do. The only way to achieve 4717 haste and still keep a 15% hit, is to add some haste gems in. I can't find a Warlock website that says haste gems are even part of our gem selection because apparently they are terrible DPS losses.

Would you recommend haste gemming in my situation though to achieve the 4717 haste threshold? Is there a better solution looking at my gear?

Thanks again for the feedback! :)

Edited by Merq, 29 November 2012 - 09:48 PM.

Posted 29 November 2012 - 10:02 PM

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Kravn
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Off the bat I notice you have a few suboptimal gems, and have no expertise reforges. On pieces that have hit on them already, you can reforge crit to Expertise to achieve hit cap without having to dip into another more valuable stat like mastery. Replace the blue sockets that have veiled gems in them with 320 hit gems. This may allow you to reforge a piece that currently has hit into haste on a few pieces. Reforgelite addon is really good at this, and far better than Mr. Robot in my opinion. Try gemming according to the stickied post in this forum regarding gemming, and re-run your reforge optimizer. That should get you closer if not over 4717. Edit - nevermind: Gems are fine, misread the colors. Stupid colorblindness.

Edited by Kravn, 29 November 2012 - 10:08 PM.

Posted 29 November 2012 - 10:23 PM

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Gravyspasm
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quick and dirty. i think i did this correctly.

Posted Image



Edit:

The only way to achieve 4717 haste and still keep a 15% hit, is to add some haste gems in. I can't find a Warlock website that says haste gems are even part of our gem selection because apparently they are terrible DPS losses.


I only added one haste gem, and that's in your headpiece. All your straight mastery gems were turned into hit/mastery. This is the best i can do using the robot interface.

imho, it is more important to get to 4717 than it is to have a non-hybrid mastery gem. with that in mind, it was easy to pull them out and put in the sensei's


edit 2: and yes, i gave you a haste enchant. which will be temporary until you get something will no crit on it. then you get to play the number balancing act again.

edit 3: comparing my reforges vs what you currently have you'll lose 4%+ mastery. sorry.

Edited by Gravyspasm, 29 November 2012 - 10:33 PM.

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 12:07 AM

#11
Merq
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Thank you! I'm assuming with the 4717 optimal haste goal that the 4% mastery loss might be alright? I'll try it out.

Edited by Merq, 30 November 2012 - 12:11 AM.

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