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Arcane dps 5.1 new rotation, ..

18 replies to this topic Started by BERSERKS, Dec 07 2012 10:38 PM arcane 5.1 patch
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Posted 07 December 2012 - 10:38 PM

#1
BERSERKS
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hi guys

after 5.1 patch and nerfing fire alot of us trying and talking about how arcane can be good i was reading around and i found this
"
Never drop your 6 stacks of Arcane Charge.
Use scorch to manage your mana. If you drop below 90% mana,
1 or 2 scorch is enough depending on your haste "

so i went and test it out and its seems i be able to keep my mana 90%+ all the fight " ofc assuming i never move from rune on power

and i end up finding my self on this rotation:

1- apply Nether Tempest and always refresh it right before the last tick

2- Cast Arcane Blast to build up 6 stacks of Posted Image Arcane Charge
( as long u dont have 2 procs Arcane Missiles if u have 2 procs use only 1 and save 2nd proc )

3- Now u have 6 stacks of Arcane Charge and around 95% mana NOW
use Posted Image Arcane Power + [Potion of the Jade Serpent] + trinket + Mirror Image ,refresh ur Nether Tempest ( will do more dps becouse all cd u just burn and + spell power u have ) THEN Posted Image Alter Time
now u in Alter Time keep spwming Arcane Blast until Alter Time finsh now use procs of Arcane Missiles u will see ur mana is 100% and u got nice spike dps keep use Arcane Blast until ur cd procs finsh now refresh ur Posted Image Rune of Power + ur Nether Tempest

4- "Remmber u still have ur 6 stack of Arcane Charge " now few more Arcane Blast until ur mana 82~85% use ur mana gem ( u have 20 of them each give about 17% mana ie.45kmana) now u have 100% mana

5- now keep in mind ur procs Arcane Missiles will be use to regin ur mana since u in 6 stacks of Arcane Charge so how we use it as long u have 2 proc u use 1 save other until u at 90% mana from ur Arcane Blast

6- The bad luck hit
the bad luck is when u have no proc of Arcane Missiles + mana gem on cd + ur Rune of Power have 10sec+ left + ur mana lower than 90% ( by lower i mean 85% )

here will be 2 chooise
A- use Posted Image Arcane Barrage and repeat from 1 to 5 ( this where u loss ur 6 stacks )

B- " the new idea " use 1~3 Posted Image Scorch then hit again Arcane Blast before u loss ur 6 stacks of Arcane Charge ( the 1~3 Scorch will regin ur mana thx to ur haste + Rune of Power ) and u have big chance while u casting Scorch the Arcane Missiles will proc which will be great again to get ur mana back to 100% without lossing ur 6 stacks of Arcane Charge .

thats it


now i like to see what u guys think about this rotation and on set # 6 which chooise u think give better dps
ofc if u going with A u can add Presence of Mind on set #3 before the use of Alter Time

Thanks for reading and i hope it help ^^

ps. If u have any question feel free to ask


Berserks

Posted 07 December 2012 - 10:54 PM

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Damien
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Thank you for sharing this :) I read your post in the guide comments and I am going to test it tomorrow (both in-game and with simulation craft). I honestly think that this is a very good idea you had and it is most definitely worth testing extensively. So, I encourage anyone who comes across this topic to do the same and post their reports here. PS: careful on spelling and the presentation ^^

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 10:04 AM

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Damien
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I've done some testing in Simulation Craft this morning and your usage of Scorch in the Arcane Mage rotation is definitely viable. It actually slightly outperforms the default Simulation Craft profile for Arcane Mages. Here is the action list I used: http://pastebin.com/vPAc5sDq With the default Arcane Mage profile, I get 137.3k DPS and with this profile, I get 139k. This is a 1% gain. To me, it means that both playstyle are definitely viable. I will keep discussing this on the simulation craft IRC channel and poke people around to see what they think :)

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 04:02 PM

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thx man for ur help and testing :) and ya sure keep us updated plz

Posted 10 December 2012 - 03:38 AM

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Siniwelho
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THEN Posted Image Alter Time now u in Alter Time keep spwming Arcane Blast until Alter Time finsh...


The effect of Alter Time lasts 6 seconds. If you spam only Arcane Blast you can cast 3 of them (I'm not sure if you can get below 1.5 second cast times by stacking Haste).

What you really want to cast during the 6 seconds is:

- 2x Arcane Missiles
- 1x Arcane Blast
- 1x Arcane Barrage

Yes, Arcane Barrage will clear your stacks, but when Alter Time effect ends you will be back in 6 stacks. And you should aim to have two Missile procs when you cast Alter Time. Arcane Missiles hit harder than Blast and this way you can use the same Missile procs twice.

Posted 10 December 2012 - 08:01 AM

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Damien
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The guys at SimC made further progress on optimizing the Arcane Mage profile this week-end, based on the original suggestion here. Here's what they currently have, simming at almost 141k DPS (so significantly more than the default profile). http://pastebin.com/kkjMmBCa Siniwelho, your tip was almost +500 DPS ;)

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 03:56 PM

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ya thx Siniwelho on ur tip it work great , one more thing i like to add and want to see ur opnion about
using Posted Image Glyph of Arcane Power , this make Posted Image Arcane Power. Have 3 min CD which is = to CD of Posted Image Alter Time
so do u think this dps gain with our new rotation ?

one more thing since we have alot of procs ( jade sprit , trinkets , pots , etc ) do u think it better to refresh Posted Image Nether Tempest once u get procs even if it have like 6sec cd , for example normaly my spell power is 25.4k raid buff , with 2 trinkets proc i get around 30k spell power do u think it better to refresh Posted Image Nether Tempest as soon i get that 30k spell power to replace the old 1 i use with 25kspell power even if it havr like 7sec+ left on it

thx

Posted 10 December 2012 - 04:36 PM

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Dannemmar
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ya thx Siniwelho on ur tip it work great , one more thing i like to add and want to see ur opnion about
using Posted Image Glyph of Arcane Power , this make Posted Image Arcane Power. Have 3 min CD which is = to CD of Posted Image Alter Time
so do u think this dps gain with our new rotation ?


I think that the 6 extra seconds from alter time have the same effect on glyphed or unglyphed arcane power. IMHO in a spec that aim to stay around 90% of mana having a shorter arcane power twice is better.

Posted 11 December 2012 - 08:26 AM

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midgettoes
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The guys at SimC made further progress on optimizing the Arcane Mage profile this week-end, based on the original suggestion here. Here's what they currently have, simming at almost 141k DPS (so significantly more than the default profile).

http://pastebin.com/kkjMmBCa

Siniwelho, your tip was almost +500 DPS Posted Image


Damien, would you possibly be able to translate this to a non-simC literate person language? This is what I THINK it is - Please correct if wrong?
Alter time w/Arcane power, Arcane charges 3+ stacks, Arcane missile x 2 stacks
Use Arcane missiles (if 2 stacks)
Arcane Barrage if no Arcane Missile stacks and <2 sec left on Alter Time
Arcane blast if neither of these 2 credentials completed.

Rest of the time:
Living Bomb as usual (ie time on bomb <3 seconds)
Arcane blast above 92% mana
Arcane Missiles when proc (and while charging Arcane Charges, use only if double proc)
Scorch to fill

Is this right?

Now that I've read through and written it out, it seems like everything this thread already says. Haha...

Posted 11 December 2012 - 08:41 AM

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Damien
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Damien, would you possibly be able to translate this to a non-simC literate person language? This is what I THINK it is - Please correct if wrong?
Alter time w/Arcane power, Arcane charges 3+ stacks, Arcane missile x 2 stacks
Use Arcane missiles (if 2 stacks)
Arcane Barrage if no Arcane Missile stacks and <2 sec left on Alter Time
Arcane blast if neither of these 2 credentials completed.

Rest of the time:
Living Bomb as usual (ie time on bomb <3 seconds)
Arcane blast above 92% mana
Arcane Missiles when proc (and while charging Arcane Charges, use only if double proc)
Scorch to fill

Is this right?

Now that I've read through and written it out, it seems like everything this thread already says. Haha...


It is more or less what it says. The thing is that you need to put a lot of conditions everywhere because SimC doesn't have a sense of what is intuitive. So it does retarded things unless you precisely instruct it not to.

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 04:57 AM

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S31Ender
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The effect of Alter Time lasts 6 seconds. If you spam only Arcane Blast you can cast 3 of them (I'm not sure if you can get below 1.5 second cast times by stacking Haste).

What you really want to cast during the 6 seconds is:

- 2x Arcane Missiles
- 1x Arcane Blast
- 1x Arcane Barrage

Yes, Arcane Barrage will clear your stacks, but when Alter Time effect ends you will be back in 6 stacks. And you should aim to have two Missile procs when you cast Alter Time. Arcane Missiles hit harder than Blast and this way you can use the same Missile procs twice.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but Arcane Missiles is slightly less damage than a 6th stack Arcane Blast WITHOUT 2 pc Tier 14, but is MORE damage WITH 2 pc Tier 14 correct?If that's the case, then if you do NOT have 2 pc tier 14, you wouldn't want to use arcane missile procs during your Alter Time because it would be a dps loss rather than 6stack ArcBlast. So I'm thinking that WITHOUT 2 pc Tier 14 your Alter Time would be used with 3 Arcane Blasts and rolling your Arcane Barrage on the end, then Alter Time runs out and you're mana you blew doing Blast is replaced and your stacks you cleared with the Barrage are restored to 6. Siniwelho's Alter Time cast order would only be used if you HAD 2 pc tier14.
Lemme know if there's a flaw in that logic.
I've been working with the strategy of not clearing stacks since I listened in on Blatty's live stream and I've found it to be pretty nice in my opinion. I think it FEELS easier to maintain decent DPS than the method of clearing stacks because with clearing stacks, you have to manage 10-15 seconds of stack buildup with not hitting 100percent dps, whereas the 6stack scorch method is easier to anticipate your mana regen hitting 100 percent mana because you're always just a few seconds away at all times. With the clear stacks method I always found I was miscalculating the time and manytimes found myself at 80-85 percent mana, and then when I clear the stacks I'd regen to 100percent and was wasteful, but with the 6stack scorch method I very rarely got below 88-90 percent mana, I was almost always above 90 percent, and I vary rarely saw 100 percent, I'd usually wind up punting out a Arc Blast at 98-99 percent so no wasted mana.

Edited by S31Ender, 12 December 2012 - 05:08 AM.

Posted 12 December 2012 - 09:27 AM

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midgettoes
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but Arcane Missiles is slightly less damage than a 6th stack Arcane Blast WITHOUT 2 pc Tier 14, but is MORE damage WITH 2 pc Tier 14 correct?If that's the case, then if you do NOT have 2 pc tier 14, you wouldn't want to use arcane missile procs during your Alter Time because it would be a dps loss rather than 6stack ArcBlast. So I'm thinking that WITHOUT 2 pc Tier 14 your Alter Time would be used with 3 Arcane Blasts and rolling your Arcane Barrage on the end, then Alter Time runs out and you're mana you blew doing Blast is replaced and your stacks you cleared with the Barrage are restored to 6. Siniwelho's Alter Time cast order would only be used if you HAD 2 pc tier14.
Lemme know if there's a flaw in that logic.
I've been working with the strategy of not clearing stacks since I listened in on Blatty's live stream and I've found it to be pretty nice in my opinion. I think it FEELS easier to maintain decent DPS than the method of clearing stacks because with clearing stacks, you have to manage 10-15 seconds of stack buildup with not hitting 100percent dps, whereas the 6stack scorch method is easier to anticipate your mana regen hitting 100 percent mana because you're always just a few seconds away at all times. With the clear stacks method I always found I was miscalculating the time and manytimes found myself at 80-85 percent mana, and then when I clear the stacks I'd regen to 100percent and was wasteful, but with the 6stack scorch method I very rarely got below 88-90 percent mana, I was almost always above 90 percent, and I vary rarely saw 100 percent, I'd usually wind up punting out a Arc Blast at 98-99 percent so no wasted mana.


Arcane missiles base damage (from my tooltip) is 5 waves x 8,520 + 24% per arcane charge. Arcane blast is 29,254 + 24% per arcane charge. Arcane missiles channel time = Arcane blast cast time. So, to me, it would appear Arcane Missiles is clearly higher damage? (~42.5k vs ~29k base with same bonus from arcane charge stacks)

Posted 12 December 2012 - 01:53 PM

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but Arcane Missiles is slightly less damage than a 6th stack Arcane Blast WITHOUT 2 pc Tier 14, but is MORE damage WITH 2 pc Tier 14 correct?


I wonder where did you get such numbers from. Like midgettoes showed a non-critical Arcane Missiles is always stronger than a non-critical Arcane Blast and I don't think it is practical to compare critical hits when Crit is the lowest stat for an Arcane mage.

Let's assume that you have 20k Spell Power (at the moment armory shows 20,991 SP for me). We can leave the Arcane Charge 25% damage increase from the calculations because it is the same for both spells.

Arcane Missiles

Five waves of 379 + 28.5% of Spell Power = 5*(379+20000*0.285) = 5*(379+5700) = 5*6079 = 30,395

Arcane Blast

702 + 100.8% of Spell Power = 702+(20000*1.008) = 702+20160 = 20,862

The base damage for both spells is so small that at level 90 it is almost irrelevant. The real difference comes from Spell Power:

- one cast of Arcane Blast: 100.8% of SP
- one channel of Arcane Missiles: 142.5% of SP

In practice Arcane Missiles is even stronger because each wave gets its own critical hit roll.

Posted 13 December 2012 - 02:01 AM

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Hi All,

Long time visitor, first time poster. I found this very interesting and was putting a lot of thought in it today (more than I probably should have because not a lot of work got done). Based on the information posted though I wanted to try and put together a clarified opening rotation and priority queue. Please see below and let me know your thoughts/suggestions:

Opener

Pre-Pull
1. Rune of Power
2. Potion of the Jade Serpent

On Pull Priority
a. Nether Tempest/Living Bomb
b. Arcane Missiles x 1 if proc stacks = 2 and Arcane Charge stacks <= 4
c. Arcane Blast

Arcane Charge Stacks = 6 Rotation
1. Arcane Power + On-Use Trinkets + Mirror Images
2. Refresh Nether Tempest/Living Bomb
3. Alter Time
4. Arcane Missiles x 2
5. Arcane Blast
6. Arcane Barrage
[Alter Time Lapses]
7. Arcane Missiles
8. Refresh Nether Tempest/Living Bomb

Priority
a. Rune of Power with <= 1 sec remaining
b. Nether Tempest/Living Bomb with < 3 sec remaining
c. Arcane Missiles x 1 if proc stacks = 2
d. Arcane Blast if mana > 90%
e. Arcane Missiles if proc is up and mana < 90%
f. Mana Gem if glyphed and mana <= 90%
g. Arcane Blast if mana > 85%
h. Mana Gem if mana < 85%
i. Scorch x 1-3 to regen mana without letting Arcane Charge Stacks fall off

The reason I have the pre-pot versus what BERSERKS had originally posted is because it allows you to buff that initial stack building exercise and will allow you to pot again at the 3 minute mark when all your on-use CDs are lined up again. Additionally, the pre-build should proc any on-chance trinkets by the time you pop Arcane Power et. al. Based on the timing of the stack build and your haste, you should have ample time left on the pre-pot to get a full additional 6 seconds on Alter Time.

I also agree with Dannemarr that you shouldn't be glyphing Arcane Power in earlier tiers because mana regen will be low until higher levels of haste become available and it would be harder to sustain the >90% mana pool for the sustained additional 15 seconds; however, I think it would be worth testing. I would think that if you had a good proc rate on Missiles you'd likely be able to better sustain your mana pool through the increased duration.

Finally, these assume you are taking Scorch, ignoring Frost Bomb, and Rune of Power as Talents. The line about Mana Gem is more a playstyle preference versus an actual DPS increase but I think you'd run the risk of potentially averaging a slightly lower benefit from Mana Adept by being mana neutral with the tick of Brilliant Mana Gem versus the burst right back to 100% of your mana pool.

Again, thoughts, critiques, suggestions, etc. are welcome.

Edited for spelling/grammar/etc.

Edited by DubbaCV, 19 December 2012 - 09:01 PM.

Posted 13 December 2012 - 09:12 PM

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Is this rotation been checked out? yust wondering due i'm still doubting to go from fire to arcane or stay fire héhé, my raid says both something else anyway if it's confirmed i'm at least going to get this one up to point for me :)

Posted 14 December 2012 - 01:00 PM

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Is this rotation been checked out? yust wondering due i'm still doubting to go from fire to arcane or stay fire héhé, my raid says both something else anyway if it's confirmed i'm at least going to get this one up to point for me Posted Image


Yeah, a lot of people have been messing around with it. Fire unfortunately if under 490ish geared is pretty weak due to the nerf. The more gear you get the better fire becomes due to how it scales with crit. So we'll see what happens next tier.
Arcane got it's buff in 5.1 and is currently doing pretty decently. I've seen mages doing both the clear-stacks rotation and this rotation and both have at least ok numbers, although in my opinion (and in the simulations) this new rotation seems to be coming out ahead.
But the best advice I can give you is to TRY IT. What's a little reforging and gems? Not much. If you find you don't like it, or can't seem to get in the groove with it, you can always just switch back.



To those who responded to my question earlier and were asking me about my math.....
I didn't work up the math myself to be honest. I had just taken a comment mentioned in a livestream (NOT blatty's) that may or may not have been correct but I had assumed it to be correct due to the caliber of the source. Also it was an older livestream before the patch...although I don't think that should mean much since they didn't buff or nerf ONE spell, they did it as a arc charge buff so it effects both of them.
Thanks for doing that napkin math and showing me. I've since started working on doing Missles/Missles/Blast/Barrage instead during my Alter Time.

Kinda liking Arcane with this rotation but of course I'm missing fire :(
Now WTB a raid group that can play like I can. I'm still 20k above most of my group at this point. :(

Posted 14 December 2012 - 02:17 PM

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Is this rotation been checked out? yust wondering due i'm still doubting to go from fire to arcane or stay fire héhé, my raid says both something else anyway if it's confirmed i'm at least going to get this one up to point for me Posted Image


At the moment Arcane is better than fire on single target; in fight with multiple target or peculiar mechanics (e.g. galaron) fire is better

The have a good idea of winch spec is better on a boss data collection is better of any simulation: have a look at raidbots

P.S. if u have to move a lot (i.e. u get chained with a melee on heroic stoneguard) your dps will sink as arcane

Edited by Dannemmar, 14 December 2012 - 02:22 PM.

Posted 14 December 2012 - 05:19 PM

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DubbaCV
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In response to some of the incredulity around the effectiveness of this rotation, please see the attached logs of a ranking mage (Deathdefier) utilizing this rotation (or something very similar). You can see he had almost 100% uptime of Arcane Charge in most fights. Also, looking through buffs gained and whatnot, you can see s/he didn't gimmick his/her dps during the fight at all. Using the expression editor you'll see more specifically how what they did lines up very closely with the rotation/priorities discussed in this thread.

http://worldoflogs.c.../?s=3812&e=4163

P.S. If Death, or anyone from that guild for that matter, is creeping around these forums, please excuse the unsolicited use of your guild's logs.

Edited by DubbaCV, 14 December 2012 - 05:28 PM.

Posted 16 December 2012 - 03:18 AM

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Siniwelho
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P.S. if u have to move a lot (i.e. u get chained with a melee on heroic stoneguard) your dps will sink as arcane


Yes, that's mainly because of two reasons:

1) The best tier 6 talent for Arcane is Rune of Power. If you can't stand on it you will lose both damge buff and mana regeneration. A lot of movement means a lot of new Runes and you won't do any damage while casting Rune of Power.

2) About 75%-80% of Arcane's damage comes from two spells: Arcane Blast and Arcane Missiles. Both have a casting time and you must stand still while casting. No other mage spec requires that much stand-still hardcasting.

After the changes in patch 5.1 I find the situation very interesting. On 8-Nov-2012 I wrote to WoW forums: "With the current setup they simply cannot buff Arcane's dps enough to be competitive with Fire and Frost in fights with heavy movement. Because then Arcane would be ridiculously overpowered in all other situations." Well, now Arcane is easily the best DPS spec there is for a single target patchwerk style fight, but players still prefer other specs for movement fights.

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