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Maeylor

6.2 ptr changes

15 posts in this topic

I know it's early, but I'm gonna throw them up here. See what you guys think and how everyone can adjust early. 

Listen, first off, I'm not an Unholy player. I prefer frost, I've played it since Wrath and I love the playstyle. On top of that, I'm GOOD as a frost dk. 
In comparison, I'm a mediocre player as Unholy. I can do decent numbers, but I'm better as frost. 

With that said, some discussion. Per the release for PTR Notes:

 

General
  • Anti-Magic Shell now absorbs 100% of all magical damage (up from 75%). However, damage absorbed no longer causes Resolve.
Frost
  • Frost Strike now deals 20% more damage.
  • Howling Blast now deals 20% more damage.
  • Obliterate's damage has increased by 20%, but deals only 80% of normal damage against player-controlled targets.
Unholy
  • Necrosis now deals 17% less damage.
Glyphs
  • Glyph of Ice Runes has been removed

 

 

That's a big change. It's early. I'm sure it won't go through as is. But I feel like this could be huge as to fixing scaling for pvp versus pve, finally giving Frost what it has needed for so long. 

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That AMS buff is gonna be really nice for non tanks, more damage absorbed is always a good thing.

 

Dual Wield Frost is now going to dominate frost PvE
Unholy will still win out in PvE due to how well Necroblight performs on a fight with any AOE
 

Can't speak for PvP because I don't do it myself but that Oblit nerf was warranted

That necrosis nerf seems a bit severe though, wonder if it will change the stat weight prios

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Although the buffs to frost were needed, the raw damage increase doesn't fix the spec. In fact, I think they are making things worse. For example, the level 100 talents. Necrotic Plague was a bad talent for Frost, it still is now. Breath of Sindragosa wasn't that good for 2H, it is even worse now since they buffed Frost Strike. It was utterly useless as DW, and well that hasn't changed. 

 

2H was entirely focused on Obliterate crits, and with the buff to Obliterate that only makes KM all the more important. Soul Reaper barely outdamages Obliterate, and with this 20% buff, I think it might even do less damage now. For an execute ability, that is weak. 

 

2H has scaling issues, since Obliterate doesn't scale well with the secondary stats. And they didn't change anything in that compartment. DW will certainly be better now, but will need time to outscale. 

 

I don't see the reason behind the Necrosis nerf to be honest. Unholy is not the best DPS spec in any way, ST or AoE. What's the point in nerfing a spec that doesn't dominate the meters(I haven't seen the rest of the patch notes, so maybe they are nerfing everything else as well?)? 

 

Edit: Well I read the rest of the patch notes, and I guess Necrosis nerf makes a bit more sense now.

Edited by Anfauglith

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I agree the necrosis nerf is a bad decision. I could understand unholy being considered a little bit too strong in aoe situations. we aren't the top, but we're definitely top 3 +/-. but nerfing Necrosis is mostly hurting unholy's single target, which is the one place we're pretty much in line with all the other melee classes. It just doesn't make sense.

 

And I also agree that frost needs to be buffed to at least make it a viable single target spec again, but these buffs aren't getting to the core of the issue. 2H Frost damage is already 40% obliterate, The spec desperately needs something different to make it fun. How about reducing obliterates base damage, but change it to frost damage so it benefits from mastery. 2H will still favor obliterate over howling blast because of higher weapon damage, but since they will now benefit from more mastery on gear, frost strike and howling blast will become more useful for 2H. This will also make obliterate a much more viable choice for DW frost, and essentially kill the mastersimple rotation since obliterate will be far better than plague strike + 1 howling blast when it comes to dumping unholy runes.

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The necrosis nerf hurts a little bit but I don't think it will be game changing for unholy. With necroblight and sindragosas you could get some crazy aoe damage coming and then a lot of multistriking but the necrosis damage would only be a fractional part of your overall dps (im thinking its like the 7 or 8th highest source normally).

 

What will be more interesting is to see when the Tier 18 set bonuses come out what they entail. Maybe unholy got something useful for a change that was aoe based and why blizz tuned it back a bit. We'll see......

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I agree the necrosis nerf is a bad decision. I could understand unholy being considered a little bit too strong in aoe situations. we aren't the top, but we're definitely top 3 +/-. but nerfing Necrosis is mostly hurting unholy's single target, which is the one place we're pretty much in line with all the other melee classes. It just doesn't make sense.

 

And I also agree that frost needs to be buffed to at least make it a viable single target spec again, but these buffs aren't getting to the core of the issue. 2H Frost damage is already 40% obliterate, The spec desperately needs something different to make it fun. How about reducing obliterates base damage, but change it to frost damage so it benefits from mastery. 2H will still favor obliterate over howling blast because of higher weapon damage, but since they will now benefit from more mastery on gear, frost strike and howling blast will become more useful for 2H. This will also make obliterate a much more viable choice for DW frost, and essentially kill the mastersimple rotation since obliterate will be far better than plague strike + 1 howling blast when it comes to dumping unholy runes.

 

I was reading over the class specific trinkets that are being added in next patch, and oddly enough, the bonus for Frost DKs will actually add bonus frost damage to obliterate, which is definitely an...interesting way to approach the situation on Blizzard's part.

 

I definitely agree that the necrosis nerf is unnecessary. Honestly, though, I'm just stoked at the prospect of potentially being able to play DW Frost again in PVE and have it be competitive/viable. At the moment, it seems like it still won't be as good as Unholy, but I'm interested to see how it plays out with the final 6.2 build.

Edited by skavader

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I cannot see the reason behind the Necrosis change: why nerf ST damage that is already only mediocre in ST and leave its AoE untouched? Furthermore, the DK class trinket  (with Wandering Plague) seems to push UH AoE potential to a whole new level.

 

Also not sure how the new AMS will interact with Glyph of Anti-Magic Shell. They essentially have the same effect, but the glyph is intact. Maybe an oversight?

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If the UH trinket remains unchanged, it will be excellent in AoE if the mobs can live long enough(especially in council fights). ST wise, though, I feel like it is one of the weakest. 

 

My guess is that Glyph of Anti-Magic Shell will be removed if that change goes live.

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So, after looking at more stuff I think the DK trinket is specifically why necrosis got  a nerf. Wandering plague is just stupid strong (i love it) and I think they felt to control Unholy from getting too strong they needed to nerf something. So necrosis really is at best 5% of our dps, but there is a fare chance that wandering plague may be a 10+ percent dps increase and they just wanted to keep DK's from getting too strong in AOE or single target situations. After all we can't not have mages doing top dps :D

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I don't see what makes Wandering Plague stupid strong. The Mythic version gives 40%, but the Normal and Heroic give less (I think I saw the numbers being 11% and 23% somewhere). 

 

Lets assume you have the Mythic version. So, if you are running the normal diseases, that gives you 2 40% chances every 3 seconds. That means that out of 4 ticks, you have a 98% chance of triggering Wandering Plague. Now I don't know if it affects both FF and BP, all one of them, so I'll cover both situations. With current gear level, BP = ~8k, FF = ~4.5k. 

 

I) Wandering Plague deals the damage of both BP and FF again. Which means it will tick for 12.5k every 6 seconds, or it gives ~2k DPS. Of course, there can be situations when this will be higher, since it is RNG, but for the most part you'll need at least 2 ticks per disease to trigger it. 

 

II)Wandering Plague deals the damage of either BP or FF. If it triggers on BP, that's 1.3k DPS. On FF it is 750 DPS. 

 

If you are going with NP, 3 ticks of NP gives you 93% chance of triggering Wandering Plague. On average, NP ticks for ~14k, so it gives 2.3k DPS. 

 

The 33% bonus Frost Damage on Obliterate means ~19k every time you cast it (on average). On a fight like Gruul, that gives ~5k DPS. 

 

Conclusion: If Wandering Plague remains as it is (and if we assume the 0 yards range is just a mistake), it will increase our AoE DPS a lot, and we are pretty good in AoE. But it is too weak for ST, considering it doesn't even give Strength. The Trinket from Maidens might as well be better. 

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Conclusion: If Wandering Plague remains as it is (and if we assume the 0 yards range is just a mistake), it will increase our AoE DPS a lot, and we are pretty good in AoE. But it is too weak for ST, considering it doesn't even give Strength. The Trinket from Maidens might as well be better. 

This was kind of my point, thank you. smile.png UH AoE is already considerable and this trinket will boost it even further (especially when targets are stacked, or at least in range of the explosion). UH ST is already somewhere in the middle, it will be nerfed and this trinket seems very much like ST DPS loss. No clue why they are doing this huh.png 

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This was kind of my point, thank you. smile.png UH AoE is already considerable and this trinket will boost it even further (especially when targets are stacked, or at least in range of the explosion). UH ST is already somewhere in the middle, it will be nerfed and this trinket seems very much like ST DPS loss. No clue why they are doing this huh.png

 

But this is sort of my point biggrin.png  I'm just trying to come up with a justification in Blizz's mind as to why necrosis had to be nerfed. Already unholy aoe is strong already this we know. If you are on any aoe fight your diseases can multistrike on each add, this we know, but your ticks of wandering should be able to multi strike as well.  This effect can compound over the course of the fight and each multistrike can set of necrosis. Blizz may have found in AOE situations this led to numbers that were too high for their taste. 

 

Single Target, I don't see the nerf to necrosis being so crippling. On all my heroic BRF fights this week necrosis damage made up less then 2% of my dps. So 2% of my dps is going to be 17% weaker. Meh.

 

On top of this there are other variables we do not know yet. At the time of posting this i've yet to see what the tier 18 dk set bonus is. The effects of those might be why they had to weaken unholy somewhere. Plus we still need to see what the fights in Hellfire look like. Yes we see single target boss names, mannoroth, archimonde, kilrogg, but we don't know how add dense they could be. Think the garrosh fight in pandaland. Dear god there was so much cleave needed there.

 

So fights not known

Set bonuses not known

 

I think we have to wait and see before going too crazy biggrin.png

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If the DPS specs become balanced (or frost turn out to be a little better), I will continue to roll as unholly, Im not returning to defile+pl, and BoS dont work very well with Frost...

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wellllllllllllll, the tier 18 unholy bonuses are out now annnnnd they don't necessarily explain the nerf to necrosis, although the 4 piece is sorta intersting

 

 

I like the 4 piece for unholy turning the ghoul into something else just because Im sick of looking at him. The damage increase is apparently 15% damage and 10% speed. It's a nice little buff, but doesn't really explain necrosis change. It will certainly help a bit with single target and we can digivolve timmy much faster to get more of the buff.

 

from a frost perspective i love killing machine having 2 charges because I ALWAYS hit frost strike the micro second before km procs.

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Hi everyone,

 

I'm a french player and i like read Icy Veins.

 

I would tell i'm playinf FDk 1H pve and i play with necrotic plague (last talent). In aoe situations and if you have ton move (Blast furnace, Darmac) i think it's better than Defile and i don't use plague strike anymore. That's my feeling on it. 

http://www.wow-heroes.com/character/eu/Ysondre/Shaka%C3%A9watha/

 

Futhermore, i think up FDk is more important for 1H with bonus set 'cause we spam frost strike (proc and PR high) and use just OB for UH runes.

And i think that we could up multistrike > mastery in 1h with the +20% on our 3 spells. But it's just an though. I haven't test yet.

 

If frost could be as good as UH ? I don't know, Today's logs are insanes and if one of you have some recount from PTR, i'm interested.

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