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Vomitory

Simple stat question for any of you simmers

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Okay, to save having to link item IDs and such...

 

Is losing 4.52% mastery worth 49 intellect as Destruction?

Edited by Vomitory

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4.52% is like 500 mastery? I think it's 110 to a % but not positive.

 

If so then no way is that exchange worth it. Now if you are gaining other stats as well then it could be a different answer,

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Few questions related to simcraft; didn't want to start another thread.

 

 

Looking at affliction on Simcraft:

 

1. Is felmouth frenzy the best food to have? That's what simcraft is using. Anyone messed around with this food vs. mast vs. haste?

2. Why does Simcraft having haunting spirits up only around 83%? That's pretty darn low. Surely it should be well over 95% uptime. 

3. Does anyone use the "my dps simcraft site"? http://wowsimcraft.com 

 

I see pretty decent discrepancies between the official simcraft site and that site. It has my destro spec over 70k dps but seems to indicate it's just using the same version of simcraft from the official site, which wouldn't place my destro spec close to that. I sim affliction sac vs supremacy and see a difference of 300 dps. At level 714 that seems off to me.

 

 

4. Is the lock stuff kept up to date on the official site? Anyone know?

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It's good yes, the different between that and Mastery food isn't huge, but Frenzy tends to be cheaper!

 

Never heard of this other Simcraft to be honest. All of the relevant theorycrafters use the original; I wouldn't trust this new one over the work of someone like Gahhda.

 

Also remember that there are many variables at play, including movement and fight length. Simming at 180 seconds and 450 seconds will producely vastly different DPS results.

 

Not sure about the official site as I never go there, what 'stuff' are you referring to in particular?

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Thanks for the reply.

 

Yeah sorry the last question is pretty vague; probably shouldn't have included it at all. I just meant to ask if it's still being worked on/kept up to date, generally, with bug fixes and optimum sequences given current level of stats (mast/haste/crit), since those could impact openers and uptimes. 

 

I suppose that question  was motivated mostly out of concern that the uptime of Haunting Spirits seemed to me pretty off, perhaps an old casting sequence/refresh reflecting low haste levels (and therefore low shard generation) that don't correspond with current gear, despite the gear listed on Simcraft. Yeah I'm wording it rather awkwardly. But I take it this stuff is kept up quite well; Gahhda has always seemed pretty devoted.

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That web site (wowsimcraft.com) seems to just be a web site that runs your character through Simulationcraft for you.  Wowprogress does that as well.   

 

I think we're probably at a point in the expansion, where the client downloads for Simulationcraft are not going to be updated unless someone finds a major bug in the models, or Blizzard makes a major change in a hotfix (which is probably unlikely).  

We're at the point where people pay more attention to details coming out of places like Warcraft Logs.  

 

Gahhdo has still been tweaking his models and posted some stuff based on it at :http://pastebin.com/xnuVFTyv although even that looks like it hasn't been updated since July.

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I'm wondering if I can ask a favour of those into simming. Can you please take YOUR gear and sim out Affliction Sup vs. Sac and post the results here, especially if you have Fragment Trinket. I'm curious to know the dps spread here  that you end up getting.

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I can do that. What type of fight, length and number of enemies? It's easy enough to add a trinket as I do not have it. 

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You can also just plug our armorys in to SimC and run it. You'll be able to see more data that way.

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Thanks Spikey, that'd be great. Was thinking a Tyrant or Fel Lord fight (something pretty ST, patchwerk-type), something like 5 mins. Fragment/DSI, Sac vs. Sup.

 

I'll also have to try armory of others for extra data, thanks for the tip; that'll be helpful as well.

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Hi Liarparadox.

 

As soon as you have to move a fight is no longer Patchwerk I believe but anyhow for the above set up with one target and no time variety:

 

GoSac: 70142

 

GoSup: 70021 

 

As a more average player I have always thought, assuming that Simcraft is correct, that I could get more damage with GoSup but it seemed impossible for me to test something like this in a raid as my numbers are all over the place anyhow.

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Yeah I understand ideal Patchwerk; Fel Lord is as close as we get this tier, so I just call it "patchwerk-type", some fight where it's ST for the most part and a good amount of uptime on DS. Thanks so much for that Spikey, can you link your armoury please?

 

My own sims show a spread of 200-300 whenever I test this stuff out on ST.

 

This confirms results I was getting, which  leads me to not speccing  Sac even during ST fights (Tyrant might be different since it all comes down to that burn phase). The difference is so minimal I can't see this translating into real world raids, aff is RNGish to some extent, and imp should be pretty consistent on ST. I may try Sac this week anyway and see what happens. If Simcraft is correct, then why is there always such a push for Sac in ST fights? Surely with even a little movement the gap is going to be near to non-existent, if Simc is correct.

 

edit: added more than the quick thanks

Edited by Liarparadox

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Aye, sorry I knew there was something that I forgot! biggrin.png I changed my DuT for a normal Fragment as they are a similar item level. With DuT though the results are actually within 600 DPS of each other.

 

I think for higher movement fights I would go with a pet but as of yet I have only played Affliction on the more obvious bosses which are quite stationary. On multi-target fights though you then have Haunts rolling on more targets so maybe it makes up for it? 

 

So which talents do you use Liar? As I guess you have the same doubts going by this thread.

 

Oh ignore most of this as I now see you edited your post and answered my question. Making dinner at the moment but I will add more later.

Edited by spikeysquad

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On MT fights I always go Supremecy, Sac makes no sense on something like Council. On IR i used to go Sac, but switched to sup because I thought there was too much movement for Sac; and i'm definitely sticking with SUP for that fight. Fel Lord and Tyrant are the only fights I think i'd consider going Sac for; it's just that I'm simming so close between the two talents I don't really know if it's worth it; perhaps the consistency is better than a "perfectly played" 200-300 dps increase.

 

Then again, maybe SimC is off on this, low Haunting spirits uptime, or something else that is in the Sim but not reflected in real world encounters that make Sac better than SimC is indicating. I know many locks go Sac for Fel Lord. It'd be great if affliction wasn't so RNGish so people could clearly compare attempts on the same bosses with these two different talents. My gear changes every week so it's also a bit annoying to try this out in actual raids.

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Thanks for the reply Liar. Yeah I have never managed to get a proper answer either on the use of GoSac. The fact that people say it is just better doesn't really explain anything. So does anyone have a better explanation?

 

Perhaps I should play around more again. I just looked at the sim I ran earlier. Drain Soul has an uptime of 73% which I will be no where near (thinking more like 60ish%) so this also says GoSup may be ahead for me. Again this is assuming that sims are mostly correct...

Edited by spikeysquad

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Read a guide recently online implying in that tier that it's a no brainer, Sac all the way. Little to no discussion. I've also found these suggestions a bit vague in their explanation department. Zagam had SimC results over at DI comparing talents, but I believe that was before some hotfixes and adjustments made, so not sure how reliable those results would be.

 

Yeah 73% uptime is too high for a real world encounter. At least, it is for plain old mortal me, especially with fragment since one will need to refresh more often. I mean, unless Simc isnt't reflecting the aff buff to those dots, best case scenario appears to be maybe a 300-500dps (if you get to sit on a boss and have 70%+ uptime on DS) advantage for Sac, I think I just prefer Imp's consistency/guaranteed dps if this is accurately reflecting real world encounters like Fel Lord. The minute you get targeted and have to run, that uptime is going to sink and the sac advantage is going to vanish pretty quickly. For the sake of parsing, I could see it being Sac all the way for RNG's sake.

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My Fel Lord kill today: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/bhafxL2HwvYK3zP8#type=damage-done&source=15 

 

65% uptime on Drain Soul. I didn't get picked for anything and I barely had to move. 

 

My Iron Reaver Kill Today I have this trimmed down to only the first 2 min of the fight, the boss went in to second phase with like 3% HP. It WOULD HAVE died before going into phase two if someone hadn't of pulled with 3 seconds left on the count down. So almost no one had a second pot.

 

53% Drain Soul uptime

 

 

First problem with your line of thinking is Fragment, it sucks for single target. I only use Fragment as Aff on HHC. GoSac is hands down the better talent for any Aff fight where you can get a fairly high uptime on Drain Soul on your main target. GoSup for everything else.

 

What that translate in to is basically using GoSac on everything expect for HHC and Archi. Aff's power is in short single or 3 target fights, really anything else and it doesn't have a good place. It is playable and doable in other situations, it just doesn't shine. Personally I play Aff a lot more than most other locks because I just really, really, REALLY hate Destro - after a year in SoO playing nothing but destro I just despise it.

 

My raid group also *normally* has 2 hunters, 2-4 mages, a rogue, and 2 DKs so I *normally* never have to worry about being an add killer allowing me to play Aff on fights that are normally considered Destro fights, such as Kilrog, Xhul, Manno, etc.

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My raid group also has a comp that allows me to almost ignore adds. So I go aff on several fights. Every sim I've seen has fragment as one of the best trinkets for ST. Simc is using Fragment as BIS along with DSI. That's where I was getting that from. So I guess that's an issue right there. This helps Locky, thanks. I still got work this out in my head, in the middle of a raid; but I'll certainly try Sac with DUT/DSI soon.

 

If it's wrong, I wonder why it is simc gets this so wrong.

Edited by Liarparadox

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Disclaimer, I'm not great at math. So this is probably where my confusion lies.

 

Locky, I found some logs of fights before I got Fragment. When I look at your log, and when I look at my previous fel lord logs, and I work out the actual gain of Sac vs Sup. (in my logs, increasing DS, Haunt and the three dots under the influence of DS by 25% and subtract the imp/additional terror over doom dmg, which usually make up around 9% of my overall dmg.) I don't see THAT big of a difference. Maybe I'm mathing something off, but it's around a 2-3%, increase with Sac over Sup, provided you don't have to move all that much. Get targeted and that gap seem to me to disappear pretty quickly. Granted in my most comparable log I had 61.6% uptime on DS and only 48.5% uptime on Haunt, (compared to your 65%/53% respectively) so that would change it a bit, though I think your log is pretty "lucky" not being targeted in the first place. I understand how Sac edges out Supremecy in ST fights; but I really haven't seen any log evidence that this is a "hands down" talent to take on these fights (or that Fragment sucks for ST). I get that people are speccing into it lots. I'd just love to see the math that justifies it with the amount of confidence in real world raid encounters. That's not me giving you attitude; I just suck at math.

Edited by Liarparadox
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Okay, big post inc. Sorry for the long read - but I need to stop giving quicky answers and rehash some stuff.

 

First, Liarparadox you are correct. Sac/Sup is very close together at all ilvls for ST, Sup wins for 3+.

 

In my head I had things a bit muddled up and I sat down with excel to find what I was missing, but I wasn't missing anything. I went to do some log checking and rechecking I had a derp derp moment and remembered - Fragment doesn't really suck (sort of); MY Fragment sucks.

 

Source darkintentions.net:

8996745_orig.png

 

This isn't my math, but as far as I know there is no reason to doubt it. As you can see Mythic Fragment is below all of the other Mythic trinkets for 1 target Aff, it is even below Mythic DUT - a BRF trinket that is 35ilvl behind M-Fragment.

 

I have a NORMAL Fragment and a MYTHIC DUT, so my DUT kicks the fel out of my Fragment any day of the week and twice on farm day.

 

Now talents, I was wrong. Not sure why I was thinking what I was thinking but I was thinking wrong-ish. For 4pc t18 Aff on single target it basically does not matter what Grimoire of the three you pick, Sac, Serv, and Sup are all basically the same DPS - we're talking a couple of 100 from top to bottom (I triple checked this).

 

However, I would still recommend and personally use GoSac because of two reasons;

  • PETS ARE DUMB. From Hunter to warlock to DK, if your pet can do something stupid - it WILL do something stupid.
  • Pets don't really scale all that well, they scale fine as in they aren't broken or anything but the higher the ilvl you go the less perfect they scale. When we were 630 pets were the bee's knees, but at 710+ they really don't blow the doors off the house anymore.

This is 95% personal preference, if you want to use Sup or Serv you can, I just don't.

 

 

For two target the talents basically stay the same.

 

The trinkets change slightly:

7420112_orig.png

 

 

Mythic Fragment is now BiS, BUT look at the other trinkets (lets be real here, if you HAVE a Mythic Fragment then you can basically do whatever you want since well...you're done with the xpack). Heroic Fragment jumps up to being one of the two best trinkets to use, unless you're a fair ways in to mythic and have/have access to some of the Mythic trinkets.

 

Three targets (stacked) talents change again, Sup because the winner and you can now choose between Cata and SB:H. If the three targets are not stacked (HHC) then Sup/SB:H are your winning combo.

 

Three target trinkets:

392743_orig.png

 

 

Fragment, heroic and mythic, becomes awesome and beats out all the rest. The other trinkets fall in line as you would expect them too.

 

 

TL:DR - I had some things mixed in my head and was not stopping to think clearly, my mistake. Although I wasn't wrong, I wasn't right either. Sorry for the confusion. 

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Thanks for sharing Locky. I have to say though that sometimes I can be almost as stupid as my pet! At least I know how to play mostly but I just do not do it properly. Are you perhaps more thinking more of 90+ percentile parsing people? Perhaps the more average player who has a lot less Drain Soul uptime and perhaps misuses Haunt may get more from GoSup? Or maybe it really does not matter.

 

This is Gahddo's pastebin for trinkets. It's quite old now too and was not ran again since some changes but was done post Affliction buffs. Ultimately a lot of trinkets are very close and not everyone will see such big changes between them all.

Edited by spikeysquad

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My warlock raids in a casual raid, but I'm not a casual or average warlock so it's hard for me to answer that. If you're not good at uptimes/haunt then yes letting your pet carry will likely be a gain - but I would say that it would be better to fix the issue than cover it up.

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Thanks for the post Locky and looking into it for us; I had looked at DI before, just didn't know how much those aff buffs would change those chart rankings; I think Zag made those prior to the aff buff iirc. I would think Fragment with the buffs would perform a bit better (but not sure if its improvement would move it up in those rankings you posted from DI, probably pretty close to as you have posted).

 

I have Heroic WF Fragment, and Mythic DUT. Next ST fight I'll definitely try DUT and also Sac to see what happens and how it feels. I, like you, don't really like the behaviour of demons. I've seen my demon sitting their picking  their nose, running in place caught on imaginary objects, frustrating. It'd be nice to not have to worry about that.

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