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SpyrosL

Mysterious challenger not op?

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I noticed my Paladin mysterious challedger deck is no so powerfull this month anymore.

Do you think it is not so strong in the current meta?

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Well currently, I see Secret Paladin as the #1 deck in the Meta, (according to tempostorm), but I'm sure after all the wings are released it will fall. I think Freeze Mage is good too since it kills the aggro that most people run on ladder.

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Challanger is still bullshit to deal with but I dont know how to say it. It's a 1 trick pony. If I lightbomb and they lose all their secrets I have not seen a paladin recover afterwards. But yes MC needs a nerf. I'd suggest, he draws 5 top deck cards. And puts secrets in play. Shuffles rest.

Edited by Sting

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Secret paladin is still really strong.  If you manage to drop it in on turn six on a relatively neutral board, you win vs quite a few decks.  Even if the board is somewhat unfavorable, if you can curve into a boom or fordring on turn 7 or 8, you will still probably win.

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In my opinion Mysterious Challenger is not over-powered and does not need a nerf. It is still a strong play on turn 6 (or even later) and can definitely win games by itself in certain situations. However, there are ways for opponents to minimize its effectiveness and deal with it cleanly. If you are having less success with it now than in the past then it could definitely be a meta shift, meaning the match-ups you're facing are less favorable. It may also be the case that more players are finally learning how to play against it and are anticipating it better. A little over a week ago I had good success with my secret paladin deck as it took me from Rank 10 to Rank 6 with relative ease. I didn't track my exact record, but I believe I rode a win streak all the way down. At Rank 6 I hit a roadblock and would win a few then lose a few, ultimately peaking at Rank 6 with full stars. The meta probably shifted somewhat on me, but I also think I just hit a patch of really competent players that were familiar with my deck and played accordingly. I haven't played with Secret Paladin since then, but I still think it's a strong deck that can do well in this meta.

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Well tbh, after playing more around secret paladin chalange is op but problem arises from other cards ussualy. Their card draw. The got 0 cards and I'm in control with 5. They catch up and continue attack when normal agro has to slow down.

But in essence nerfing their card draw hurts all decks and mysterious challanger is like only card of that impact ingame.

Name me another card droped turn 6 or below of such hight impact.

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Well tbh, after playing more around secret paladin chalange is op but problem arises from other cards ussualy. Their card draw. The got 0 cards and I'm in control with 5. They catch up and continue attack when normal agro has to slow down.

But in essence nerfing their card draw hurts all decks and mysterious challanger is like only card of that impact ingame.

Name me another card droped turn 6 or below of such hight impact.

 

I don't disagree that Mysterious Challenger is a high impact card. Any card that creates a new deck built around it is obviously powerful. We may, however, disagree with what defines "over powered." To many people, the old Patron Warrior before the nerf to Warsong Commander felt over-powered because you could be killed seemingly out of nowhere with no chance to respond. Mysterious Challenger does not kill you the turn it comes into play. You have a chance to respond.

 

Keep in mind also that putting Mysterious Challenger in your deck is a high risk, high reward inclusion. Yes, it's great when you draw it and play it on curve. But in games where you don't draw him you are often stuck with a much weaker deck because of the many secrets you run (there is a good reason none of the secrets were seen in competitive decks before MC - by themselves they simply aren't strong enough).

 

Off the top of my head I can think of three 6-cost minions that, when played in the right deck, can be just as powerful as Mysterious Challenger or more so:

  • Emperor Thaurissan
  • Sylvanas Windrunner
  • Reno Jackson

Granted these cards may be more situational, but any of these cards can completely turn around a game in the right situation. They won't win you the game every time, but neither does Mysterious Challenger.

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Well tbh, after playing more around secret paladin chalange is op but problem arises from other cards ussualy. Their card draw. The got 0 cards and I'm in control with 5. They catch up and continue attack when normal agro has to slow down.

But in essence nerfing their card draw hurts all decks and mysterious challanger is like only card of that impact ingame.

Name me another card droped turn 6 or below of such hight impact.

I don't disagree that Mysterious Challenger is a high impact card. Any card that creates a new deck built around it is obviously powerful. We may, however, disagree with what defines "over powered." To many people, the old Patron Warrior before the nerf to Warsong Commander felt over-powered because you could be killed seemingly out of nowhere with no chance to respond. Mysterious Challenger does not kill you the turn it comes into play. You have a chance to respond.

Keep in mind also that putting Mysterious Challenger in your deck is a high risk, high reward inclusion. Yes, it's great when you draw it and play it on curve. But in games where you don't draw him you are often stuck with a much weaker deck because of the many secrets you run (there is a good reason none of the secrets were seen in competitive decks before MC - by themselves they simply aren't strong enough).

Off the top of my head I can think of three 6-cost minions that, when played in the right deck, can be just as powerful as Mysterious Challenger or more so:

  • Emperor Thaurissan
  • Sylvanas Windrunner
  • Reno Jackson
Granted these cards may be more situational, but any of these cards can completely turn around a game in the right situation. They won't win you the game every time, but neither does Mysterious Challenger.
You are correct but cards you listed are late game threats with no ability to be played on curve. Mysterious challanger due to ability to be played on curve creates impossible situation much earlier then cards you list. He puts 11 resources value and thins deck of 5 cards potentially making rest of deck much stronger after he is played early, preferably turn 6.

For such effect his 6/6 body is way above curve. He needs a change in effect or way lower stats like 5/4 etc.

Edited by Sting

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Emperor T is usually a great play on curve. Generally the longer you wait the fewer cards you'll have in hand for his effect, although waiting can be beneficial if you want some combo pieces to be in hand before dropping him. Sylvanas and Reno can also be powerful on curve, but you are correct that, because of their situational nature, it's often better to wait. 

 

Having said that, I understand completely where you're coming from. Mysterious Challenger is clearly one of the best 6-drops in the game. Another point that supports your argument is that Mysterious Challenger is an epic and the other cards I named are legendary. Thus, your deck can have two copies of MC but only one copy of each of the others. Now, does being a more-powerful-than-most card means it needs to be nerfed? I don't think so. Hearthstone would get boring pretty quickly if all cards were at the same power level. Overly powerful cards, to me, are cards that create unfair situations because your opponent can't respond (this is also why many of the big nerfs in Hearthstone history have dealt with the charge mechanic - think Leeroy Jenkins and the Starving Buzzard/Unleash the Hounds combo). You can respond to Mysterious Challenger. I've lost plenty of games after laying down my own MC, so I know firsthand that he's not unbeatable. I've also lost games where I didn't draw MC and was left playing a bunch of weak secrets. It's great when it works and the reward clearly outweighs the risk or no one would keep playing it, but I don't believe he's over-powered.

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Well, it is counter able card yes. However in value for cost he is over the top. He is worth more then Dr. Boom best 7 cost card while beeing 6 cost epic. I dont demand nerfs I am just saying they should be done and give my opinion. I know better combos it's just other decks cant get such huge board presence withouth beeing weak to something. MC has no clear counter. If killed h3 ressurect at 1 hp. And if you tare him defender defends and gives stats again. Basicaly if you d8nt have a 2 inning board buy turn 6 vs challanger ur screwed. Un less freeze mage ofc.

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Flare is a great counter for hunters as it turns Mysterious Challenger into a weaker Boulderfist Ogre. Because the buff from Avenge falls on MC so often, Big Game Hunter is also a strong counter. And of course you can use hard removal such as Polymorph and Hex to remove MC without triggering Avenge or Redemption (although you may want to trigger them first, especially if MC is the lone minion as the Avenge buff will also be lost). This will also make a board sweep such as Flamestrike or Lightning Storm more likely to clear the entire board. As you mentioned, you likely don't want to kill MC right off with a Fireball or other direct damage as you want the Redemption secret to bring back the 2/1 Defender from Noble Sacrifice or another weak minion. It might still be strong if you have another way to deal one more damage, like the Mage hero power, but that can be problematic if Avenge takes MC back out of range.

 

Keep in mind that the powerful combo of Noble Sacrifice and Avenge won't trigger until you attack, so sometimes it's better to simply wait a few turns before attacking to help you find a better answer. Dropping taunts can be a strong play to slow down your opponent in the meantime (hopefully after you first trigger Repentance with a weaker minion). This obviously isn't an option for aggro decks, so as you allude to the best bet for aggro is to be at or near lethal by turn 6. That's not a big problem of course as that's what they try to do against all decks they play. smile.png

 

I definitely appreciate your opinion and I'm sure there are many that agree with you. The counters I name above can be strong against MC but they often leave you vulnerable to the Paladin's follow-up plays of Dr. Boom and Tirion (which may make you wish you had saved your Big Game Hunter or your Polymorph). Secret Paladin is a strong deck and I think there's a good reason Tempostorm has had it listed at Tier 1. Is that a bad thing?  I don't think so.  I think strong cards are good for the game as they make it exciting and more fun to play. If Boulderfist Ogre was as good as it got on turn 6 I think a lot of people would lose interest. Plus with LoE out we will see less and less Secret Paladin as people try out the new cards.

Edited by Darb
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It isnt. Well look ill give 3 examples of cards. Imagine if other people 6 drops had mysterios challanger stats of 6/6.

Priest cabal shadow priest that steals minnions forever as 6/6 body.

Gadzetsan auctioneer as 6/6 etc.

For challanger effect his stats are nearly same as top 6 stat drop Boulderfist ogre 6/7.

No other card is even close. You don't balance game around 1 game breaking card making rest of kit rubbish. And in MC case rest of deck aint even that bad.

In recent days I've learned how to play around etc. But look problem is secret paladin decks dont care what you play. They advance their own strategy and ignore yours. You can't ignore theirs.

It's kinda like freeze mage but with less counters and faster with better curve. It's infuriating in playing vs it as good curve on average deck cant Compete with average one in MC decks if hes put in game turn 6.

Edited by Sting
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I think freeze mage is good against secret paladin.

Priest has problems. Superjj was matched 3 times against the same secret paladin.

http://themoment.tv/#playlist/1037

From my experience, both dragon and regular control priest are fairly decent/good vs secret pala, dragon priest mostly due to having strong early game minions (wyrmrest agent, blackwing tech) and being able to gain board-control with powerword:shield or velen's, so they can trigger the secrets after MC on turn 6 and SW:Death the remaining 6/6 (or 9/8).

That said, there will be games where you don't really have an active play until turn 4 in which case you'll most likely need a lightbomb to clear his muster+shredder+MC

I can't say that much about regular control priest because I'm not as familiar with that match-up but i guess if you run wild pyro you pretty much hard-counter his muster for battle and heropowers.

 

If there's too much secret-pala's out there, I'd recommend you to go with:

-any type of (anti-aggro teched) control-priest

-freeze mage

-some faster deck that most likely kills them before turn 6

 

OR, if you really hate them try Midrange-Hunter with double flare biggrin.png

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control warrior vs secret palladin
sjow secret palladin vs control warrior ladder Hearthstone
http://themoment.tv/#playlist/1128

 

Strifecro midrange Druid vs secret paladin last 2015 ladder gameplay
http://themoment.tv/#playlist/1145

 

Thijs playing aggro Druid vs secrets Paladin ladder Hearthstone http://themoment.tv/#playlist/1154

 

TidesofTime plays Fibonacci warrior(video): http://themoment.tv/#playlist/1168 vs a secret paladin

 

 

in the end he says his mistake was not hitting face with Grom.

 

Kolento was playing yesterday Entomb Priest with Toshley and musseum currator, here is a game against a secret paladin and the decklist http://themoment.tv/#playlist/1202

Remix: Savjz secret Reno paladin vs Shaman Hearthstone

 

http://themoment.tv/#playlist/1216

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