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Ithilrandir

Thoughts about cards with upcoming changes.

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What are your thoughts about the power levels of some of the cards in standard once the update goes live?(excluding buffs/nerfs & spring expansion)

 

 

 

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Seeing as we don't know what the new set is going to be, and many cards are being nerfed, we don't really know the answer to this.

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Many people speculate and I agree that Druid will see quite some adjustments. They just have too many staple cards from Basic and Classic set. FoN and savage roar has been there since forever and if they dont fix that it wont fix anything as far as druid is concerned.

 

Archmage antonidas might get touched. I really hope he doesn't since he is so interesting, but he is a staple in many mage decks and almost an auto include. some might say he is OP.

 

Tirion might change. He overshadows every other pally legendary.

 

Alextraza, creates decks based around her. Around busting people down from 15 after popping her. Personally I like cards which create new archetypes but people think she needs to go because the nature of that burst makes her OP. Maybe something like reduce her attack? Since her high attack, you are actually setting your opponent's health to 7 rather than 15.

 

BGH keeps many high value minions from making it to the spotlight. You will hear streamers tell you a card is bad because it dies to BgH. If you have a tech spot open, you will prob pick a BgH or owl, no questions asked.  

 

I don't think rogue needs a nerf, but noxious makes a point that rogue has around 15 cards from core sets which are auto include. I think they need more diverse new tools to fit rolls rather than nerf's. e.g back stab is needed as a cheap combo activator. Deadly poison makes their lackluster hero power good. execute is literally the only direct damage spell they have. 

 

Master of disguise: keeps blizzard from printing lots of cards as neutrals.

 

These are cards that came to my mind. Lets see what happens.

Edited by Valkyr
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I think the main problem with paladin legends is that other than tirion, they are mostly situational and quite bad. Blizzard should make better paladin legendaries instead of nerfing paladin even more, especially since they lost so much in gvg

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I feel that druid will be the class to get nerfed the hardest. He does not lose that much and his unfavourable macthups will be gone. FoN = all minions lose charge? (will cost 7 mana, to make up for that increased value) :D

I belueve Tirion is the best legendary of them all, maybe even with Boom, but when Boom is gone, Tirion will be the one to rule them all.

Sadly, rogue loses all her win conditions (cycling with Gadgetzan and comboing with Oil). Standard is the nerf itself. Let's hope rogue gets new cards in the next expansion.

Now, I think that Zoo wil get a lot of new cards. The emat will slown down a bit and the game will be incredibly imbalanced (not considering the incoming nerfs). Dragon decks, freeze mage and midrange druid will probably see some nerfs because they will be the ones ruling the game if the nerf does not "destroy" them.

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According to noxious, yes rogue looses oil but looking at the loss of sticky minions and sludge belcher from meta, they might be still fine seeing as how all their tempo cards are from basic set too. I personally feel oil +blade flurry is what gave rogue the final oomph to destroy the opposition as a finisher. Its hard for me to be objective when it comes to rogues. I've always loved em back  in diablo, as the assasin class, and then in wow (where I always felt under powered). So I'm always for more power to the rogues!

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Quoting a nerfs that some people think will happen to druid based on blizz's previous nerfs

"Savage roar:5 mana give your beast + 1 attack"

Imagine if blizz actually did that. 

Destroying druid while making people not able to get dust back

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But let's not forget about Holy Wrath and how broken tat card is. New text: "Your opponent draws a card. Your hero takes damage equal to its mana cost." 4 mana, of course.

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But let's not forget about Holy Wrath and how broken tat card is. New text: "Your opponent draws a card. Your hero takes damage equal to its mana cost." 4 mana, of course.

 

Why would you take damage to give your opponent card advantage is beyond me. But hey, free 100 dust!

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But that's what Blizzard could do. Hey, it could work in Mill decks, so it will damage your own face, why not? It will have the same powerlevel as current Warsong.

Also, it's 80, cause you get 20 dust anyway.

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What if blizzard changes Savage roar to "your charge minions have +2 attack" Its actually possible! Its like a tip of the hat to history while being balanced. you get a 12 damage burst,  seems balanced for a 2 card combo right? Leeory + shadow step does 12 damage too...

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With most of the sticky minions gone, they also might have to look at board clears again, especially the better ones like Flamestrike, Doomsayer, Brawl. If there's no counter to them, control and OTK combo decks may become the only viable style.

 

It's a tricky balance. There need to be some board clears so that you can come back from behind. But if board clears get to strong, it easily becomes a game of who paid more for better late-game legendaries. And for the health of the game, there needs to be one viable cheap deck, so that new players feel that they have a chance.

 

Of course, instead of directly nerfing board clears, Blizzard can also introduce new minions that are resistant to it, to replace the current sticky ones. Could be death rattles, could be a new "immmune to aoe" mechanic. I don't envy them having to balance both Standard and Wild with that.

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Without good Aoe cards, it would become very difficult to catch up after a strong board. The board clears are pretty expensive. The turn you play em, you develop nothing and your opponent continues to develop his board.

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Besides Druid cards being very strong in Classic, I should remind about Handlock strategies - even though Reno variations overshadow him quite hard, classic builds relying on AoE consistency and proactive plays could find a place. Having an 8/8 t4 is not a joke.

That being said, without further support Warlock will be only a control class, Zoo being sent on the chopping block. A ton of Warlock class cards are bad because they either work with Demons which aren't found in a bunch or imply disadvantage in playing them, pushing themselves beyond playability. And losing our fairly balanced Darkbomb is a hit - I'd rather see Shadow Bolt reworked to be that card in a basic set, because it's very generic and effective as your FrostBolt-without-Frost.

Hunters and Face Shamans will live to rule the new Standard. There aren't much effective Taunts or Heals in the Classic set and this should be probably changed. Power lever of Face decks was increased to combat Healbot and Belcher; now they're gone - and Face decks are not.

BGH being #1 popular card is a natural state of things in current situations. Blizzard's vision of each class at the moment is such that cards-roleplayers like removal or AoE only belongs to special classes, reducing other classes deck-building diversity and playability. I cannot make a viable Control Hunter deck just because good hard removal , AoE pieces and card drawing are not what is Blizzard's vision of this class, for example. And those generic roles of cards like BGH are always in their highest demand, being what makes a game good. That's why he is in pretty much each deck - we simply have no alternatives.

I'd also like to say that removal is interaction - first and foremost - and without one game just degenerates into "My draw vs your draw" very fast. We've seen it in Secret Paladin, although not to its worst, but some bad signals have been sent.

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As a matter of fact, blizzard might actually nerf bgh, because with that card in mind, they couldn't make any ultra cool powerful legends without being immediately big game huntered.

 

As for aoe, its probably much better, thx to all the sticky gone. Deathwing will also be better. As well as sunwalker being the new suldge belcher(since no shrink meister)

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BGH will almost certainly never be nerfed. He is so conditional that it doesn't really matter. He also provides additional hard removal capability. If he does get nerfed, it would probably just be increasing the minimum attack to 8 instead of current 7 or upped its cost from 3 mana to 4 or 5, limiting combo uses. Anything above that would be absurd, as so few minions have 9+ attack. Keeping BGH at 7 has no real issue as most legendaries with 7+ attack have already done some substantial damage by the time you have the ability to use him. Just my opinion on that matter :) I wouldn't mind listening (reading? lol at text semantics) to others opinion on that matter.

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News from blizz indicates that they have no plans to buff cards atm, only nerfing them.

Rip: all the crappy basic&classic cards.

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The problem with BGH is the huge value you get. Your opponent stalled the game long enough to put down a big threat like Rag. That is all he was able to do that turn. Rag gets BGH for so little mana, that late in the game its almost a free kill. you can use BGH to get rid of a much higher costing threat and continue to build your own board. Hence punishing the opponent for having big threats in their deck at all. 

I think BGH needs a look at because decks get built specifically to avoid giving your opponent BGH value. 

 This limits the use of many legendaries, or forces you to have multiple BGH targets in your deck, limiting deck building options. Its hard to say how BGH will react to a meta without shreddder (enabling high attack low health minions to be played more) and Boom (guaranteed BGH value). 

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I've never seen BGH as a problem really. Not compared to the likes of Hex, Polymorph, Shadow Word: Death, Execute, Entomb etc. I'll be surprised if they do anything to it.

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The problem with BGH is the huge value you get. Your opponent stalled the game long enough to put down a big threat like Rag. That is all he was able to do that turn. Rag gets BGH for so little mana, that late in the game its almost a free kill. you can use BGH to get rid of a much higher costing threat and continue to build your own board. Hence punishing the opponent for having big threats in their deck at all. 

I think BGH needs a look at because decks get built specifically to avoid giving your opponent BGH value. 

 This limits the use of many legendaries, or forces you to have multiple BGH targets in your deck, limiting deck building options. Its hard to say how BGH will react to a meta without shreddder (enabling high attack low health minions to be played more) and Boom (guaranteed BGH value).

If the opponent stalls to play Rag, it usually means thathe has more late-game cards and that Rag doesn't mean that much. Also, the opponent won't usually stall - they will play proactve stuff instead and Rag will be just a late-game threat.

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I've never seen BGH as a problem really. Not compared to the likes of Hex, Polymorph, Shadow Word: Death, Execute, Entomb etc. I'll be surprised if they do anything to it.

 

I agree.  Most of my decks do not include BGH anymore as there are so many other options for hard removals that can be used in more situations than BGH.  With such a specific use, BGH more often than not simply sits in my hand for the entire game unused.

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Because of BGH there are more then a few very strong cards that simply do not see play, like foe reaper, Onyxia and deathwing to name  a handful.  You see almost 0 cards played that have 7 or more attack.  There is Alex, Geddon, Boom, grom and the giant, and that is about it.  You see rag once in a while, but most of those are either cheated in to play for low mana or played almost solely for their utility or effect.

 

If freeze mage doesn't get nerfed (unlikely), it will certainly be one of the strongest decks, it loses very very little.  Mad scientist can be replaced with other draw effects to little loss, same goes for heal bot and refreshment vendor.  With out the large amount of sticky minions, you might see more control mages, since you know stuff like flame strike will actually be worth playing again. I could see fatigue mage being very strong, between torch and conjurer for extra resources, board clears being extremely meaningful again and animate armor being hilarious with fatigue damage, it could end up being the big winner after all the nerfs.  Although unless they get some new aggro tools in the next set most of the aggressive mage variants will be pretty dead, mech mage being no longer a thing and tempo mage losing something like 10+ of its cards (Flame cannon, portal, Scientist, Shredder, Boom, its secrets with the scientists, and maybe antonidas if they nerf him).  Face and mid range hunter will probably be in a fairly okay spot, better then now certainly (more so for face then mid range), and aggro shaman will probably take a bit of a hit, it only really loses crackle but that is a fairly irreplaceable card. Speaking of shaman, mid range shaman will probably be a strong archtype again.  Without all the sticky minions, overload isn't nearly as punishing, the pressure to curve out well isn't going to be as strong so the huge swing turns mid range is capable of are going to be much stronger, and being gimped the next turn will be much much less punishing.  Most variations of priest will be fine, they lose some strong cards, but aside from light bomb, nothing that isn't easily replaced.  Paladins are getting gutted, secret paladin is losing so much that it will probably cease to be a thing, unless they get some help with the next expansion.  They lose minibot, muster, belcher, avenge, coghammer, boom, tirion is probably going to be one of the things getting nerfed, Boom. . .  The oil rogue style doesn't really lose as much as you would think.  The big loss is of course oil, but with the lack taunts, healing and sticky sorts of minions its going to be much easier to burst your opponent making oil less necessary, still going to suck.  How miracle will fair without the anti aggro cards is hard to say, but I imagine it will probably end up more or less in the same spot, maybe a little better, probably a bit worse.  Raptor rogue is taking a huge hit, all the sticky death rattle minions are leaving, and it will put that deck in a rough spot.  Warlocks will be fine, zoo and handlock were very popular before naxx and such, and they will continue to be popular once standard starts.  The loss of sticky minions for zoo kind of sucks, but they are going to be less necessary when your not trading into sticky minions so, meh.  Hand lock loses quite a bit, but again, it was played without all that stuff in it before, it will again, and reno will be as strong as ever, with all the AoE most reno decks pack and the lack of stickies, its going to be very hard to actually lose aggro match ups with it.  Patron is taking a huge hit, and control warrior as well with the loss of deaths bite and a few other key cards, but since the stickies are gone, Deaths bite isn't quite as vital for control warriors and you will probably see another weapon ran in its place.  Since Patron is probably not going to be seeing play I wouldn't be surprised to see warriors get some cool new toys next expansion that makes another variation of warrior viable.  I could also see dragon warrior being somewhat more popular as well.

Edited by VaraTreledees

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I've never seen BGH as a problem really. Not compared to the likes of Hex, Polymorph, Shadow Word: Death, Execute, Entomb etc. I'll be surprised if they do anything to it.

 

OMG I hate entomb with a vengence. Now priests can punish you for playing small cards AND big cards. Playing against Those decks is so not interactive. You just end up not playing anything, ever - and then being punished severely when you do.

Yes most classes have some form of hard removal or a hard removal combo, some better than others (looking at you corruption) but Class cards are excused mostly because, well they are class cards and cant be used by every tom dick and harry. No one  makes a deck excluding big particular legendaries thinking, oh, but polymorph, or oh but execute. but BGH, being able to fit in any deck makes it a threat. Also class removals are spells. Having a 3 mana card that removes a huge minion plus puts a body on the board seems unbalanced.  But who knows, now that everyone wont automatically have a boom in deck, it might change how people see BGH. People may stop using him since no boom = no guaranteed target. this may lead to people using Ragnaros and others again. People will start playing BGH again until there is a form of equilibrium. Only then would we know if BGH is imbalanced or not. He heavily depends on how many viable targets are there in a given meta or standard set collection.

 

I just want my newly opened golden ragnoras to be relevant after the patch dammit! :P  

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I don't really see how 6 attack being better than 7 is in any way desirable.

 

BGH's existence makes a ton of potentially decent cards unplayable because they reach that magical 7 attack breakpoint. That just screams of terrible design.

 

Maybe the removal of Dr. Balanced will rectify things somewhat. Maybe.

Edited by kvaak
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