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zyniker

Having issues with destruction.

13 posts in this topic

First of all, I've been sort of out of sorts since 5.2 launched. Entirely my fault for not putting forth the effort to learn the other two specs before the patch.

Second of all, I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed trying to learn destruction. I've spent far more time digging around trying to find numbers as roughly exact for Destruction as there were for Affliction (i.e. haste breakpoints at 6637, 9778 etc, then stack mastery). Tried gemming the way that the guide here says (+160 int in reds/prismatics, int/haste or int/mastery in yellows, int/hit in blues).

Long story short, (and links to relevant information'll be posted after this, I promise) my guild is starting to progress into heroic content and I feel like I'm hampering things (nevermind that I'm still utter shit on Horridon...which is what prompted me to finally reach out).

So, here we go:

Armory- http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/illidan/zyniker/advanced

Logs from last night- http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/pa6emzr863qr37jx/

Logs from last week's raids- http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/czvbtm6jtb1b0px3/ and http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/ol55nlq0n9glr65g/

Relevant non-equipped gear in bags: LFR Lei-shen trinket, Thunderforged Breath of the Hydra, Shado-pan Assault trinket, normal Tier shoulders, Legendary meta-gem (I had Breath equipped last night, not Cha-ye's)

Basically, what I'm wondering is-

What's an ideal haste marker? (Simming my lock still shows haste>=crit>>mastery, which...after reading here, watching Evrelia's guide and looking at other locks seems backwards. I've been aiming for 20% unbuffed but, again, that seems to be about double what I'm seeing after doing some armory digging on other locks)

What's the best way to use Shadowburn in execute phase- spam it, or run with "SB, 5 seconds of filler, SB and

repeat" I've been trying both and, well, LFR's not really the best place to figure things like that out.

Is it worth it to break my T14 4pc for my T15 2pc as destruction?

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First of all, I've been sort of out of sorts since 5.2 launched. Entirely my fault for not putting forth the effort to learn the other two specs before the patch.

Second of all, I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed trying to learn destruction. I've spent far more time digging around trying to find numbers as roughly exact for Destruction as there were for Affliction (i.e. haste breakpoints at 6637, 9778 etc, then stack mastery). Tried gemming the way that the guide here says (+160 int in reds/prismatics, int/haste or int/mastery in yellows, int/hit in blues).

Long story short, (and links to relevant information'll be posted after this, I promise) my guild is starting to progress into heroic content and I feel like I'm hampering things (nevermind that I'm still utter shit on Horridon...which is what prompted me to finally reach out).

So, here we go:

Armory- http://us.battle.net...yniker/advanced

Logs from last night- http://www.worldoflo...6emzr863qr37jx/

Logs from last week's raids- http://www.worldoflo...vbtm6jtb1b0px3/ and http://www.worldoflo...55nlq0n9glr65g/

Relevant non-equipped gear in bags: LFR Lei-shen trinket, Thunderforged Breath of the Hydra, Shado-pan Assault trinket, normal Tier shoulders, Legendary meta-gem (I had Breath equipped last night, not Cha-ye's)

Basically, what I'm wondering is-

What's an ideal haste marker? (Simming my lock still shows haste>=crit>>mastery, which...after reading here, watching Evrelia's guide and looking at other locks seems backwards. I've been aiming for 20% unbuffed but, again, that seems to be about double what I'm seeing after doing some armory digging on other locks)

What's the best way to use Shadowburn in execute phase- spam it, or run with "SB, 5 seconds of filler, SB and

repeat" I've been trying both and, well, LFR's not really the best place to figure things like that out.

Is it worth it to break my T14 4pc for my T15 2pc as destruction?

Firstly, I'd like to start by saying: Running 'scale factors' for stats in simc, aka stat weights, works off snapshotting YOUR CURRENT STATS, and then telling you which stat gives the most over the next X amount (x being the 'delta' option). So, its not a 'this stat is better,' its a 'this stat is better RIGHT NOW.' If you want more accurate portrayal of the value of stats, reforge to something relatively equal, like 6k of all 3 (whatever works with your gear), and try running a stat plot. I'll go more in detail with stat plots in a later paragraph.

Durumu - On normal, its the only 'essentially' patchwerk fight this tier, yes it has movement, but practically everyone but balance/shadow/mages lose nothing from movement these days. Your damage is definitely low. To compare:

http://www.worldoflo.../?s=2312&e=2532 Me

http://www.worldoflo.../?s=2514&e=2926 You

I highlighted that specific part of my log because the dolts left me inside the knockback with drain life, and I died because I couldn't move :<.

Basic breakdown of spell usage:

My 14.45 incinerates per minute vs Your 13.689

My 8.73 chaos bolt/shadowburn per minute vs Your 4.08

Your immolate uptime is a little low, try to aim for 95%+

RoF uptime is 25% to my 83%.

So, basically, what I'm seeing is that

1. You need to keep RoF up a significant amount more

2. Manage embers better

Now, improving #1 will directly improve #2 by allowing you MUCH more embers throughout the fight than simply spamming incinerate would. That being said, I can't really see how you have such a drastically lower number than me, unless you aren't using havoc to its fullest (I think I only managed to get 2 havoc/shadowburns on the adds..so even then its still a big gap between you and me).

Looking through some other bosses, the same issues continually arise. You have relatively the same number of CB/SB as me (or less) when the fight is lasting 1-2 minutes longer for you guys, which means you should be getting more!

Most top locks run M >> H >> C. In real world scenarios, mastery far outperforms haste/crit for destruction for a number of reasons that have been stated in multipled other threads (search function is your friend!). It also makes it super easy to switch between the 3 specs from fight to fight. Even for demo/affli, the point where 'haste becomes better than mastery' is really just the point where 'haste >= mastery' single target. In reality, mastery is better for realistic demo play, and I know nothing of affliction, so have fun with that rofl.

SB functions the same way CB does in the rotation. You want to save it up for procs/cds, unless you'll cap embers, or the target is about to die.

Maybe if you shed some light on why your chaos bolt/shadowburn is so low I can help from there, but the logs aren't very revealing in that regard :<.

Edited by gahddo
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You are definitely mostly right about the mechanics that need to be improved Gahhdo, you're a saint.

I would like to point out that there is about a 3 minute fight duration difference between your two parses. This can definitely affect your overall DPS within a parse. People can bust a nut with 300k+ out the gate with lust and everything rolling, but the number slowly makes it way back down. With a quicker fight you won't feel that as much, but as the fight drags on your overall DPS begins to suffer.

Edited by Omaric

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Shit I was supposed to detail plotting...either way doesn't really matter, M >= H >> C is the way to go.

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You are definitely mostly right about the mechanics that need to be proved Gahhdo, you're a saint.

I would like to point out that there is about a 3 minute fight duration difference between your two parses. This can definitely affect your overall DPS within a parse. People can bust a nut with 300k+ out the gate with lust and everything rolling, but the number slowly makes it way back down. With a quicker fight you won't feel that as much, but as the fight drags on your overall DPS begins to suffer.

Destro 'burst' is some of the worst in the game. That is to say, the actual pull burst, the timed burst around mechanics is some of the highest. That's the tragedy that is destruction. We suck donkey nuts compared to other people at pull, but we just stay there THE ENTIRE FIGHT while others slowly fall.

But yes, thats why I analyzed in a cast per minute manor instead of direct value comparison.

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I can burst for over 250k+ out of the gate. I definitely can't sustain that throughout a fight. Posted Image

The reason I bring it up is because, yes, you did analyze as a cast per minute, but you do also look back to his overall DPS and ask, "why the huge ass difference". I'm just saying fight length is a factor and *does* in fact affect Destro.

Potion + DS + Lust + Jade + Wush towards the end is stupid for me. I'll get a couple 700k+ Chaos Bolts towards the end of the initial burst phase.

Edit: In fact - http://www.worldoflo.../?s=9160&e=9583

I spiked at over 450k+ at the start of the fight last night on Durumu. The closest I get anywhere to that again is 250k. Again though, this is a 7 minute fight and my DPS diminishes over time.

Edit2: Compared to the rest of your raid in your Durumu encounter, barring the rogue, your initial burst is right up there with them.

Edited by Omaric

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I can burst for over 250k+ out of the gate. I definitely can't sustain that throughout a fight. Posted Image

I can burst 400k single target, that means nothing when the mage does 500, and the rogue does 700.

And with regards to the other peoples burst, they should be doing more then me, assuming they were on the same skill level as me. ASSUMING. The only person I actually consider on a skill level close to mine is our rogue because he ranks top 5 on every freaking fight regardless of what spec he plays.

And the lower number remark was about the casts/minute...not the dps. I wouldn't ever compare a casual/semi-hardcore parse to my dps in terms of raw dps, I have literally 18 ilvl on him :/.

Edited by gahddo

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Check my edits. Sorry. I'm slow sometimes, damn work being all worky and shit.

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Firstly, I'd like to start by saying: Running 'scale factors' for stats in simc, aka stat weights, works off snapshotting YOUR CURRENT STATS, and then telling you which stat gives the most over the next X amount (x being the 'delta' option). So, its not a 'this stat is better,' its a 'this stat is better RIGHT NOW.' If you want more accurate portrayal of the value of stats, reforge to something relatively equal, like 6k of all 3 (whatever works with your gear), and try running a stat plot. I'll go more in detail with stat plots in a later paragraph.

Durumu - On normal, its the only 'essentially' patchwerk fight this tier, yes it has movement, but practically everyone but balance/shadow/mages lose nothing from movement these days. Your damage is definitely low. To compare:

http://www.worldoflo.../?s=2312&e=2532 Me

http://www.worldoflo.../?s=2514&e=2926 You

I highlighted that specific part of my log because the dolts left me inside the knockback with drain life, and I died because I couldn't move :<.

Basic breakdown of spell usage:

My 14.45 incinerates per minute vs Your 13.689

My 8.73 chaos bolt/shadowburn per minute vs Your 4.08

Your immolate uptime is a little low, try to aim for 95%+

RoF uptime is 25% to my 83%.

So, basically, what I'm seeing is that

1. You need to keep RoF up a significant amount more

2. Manage embers better

Now, improving #1 will directly improve #2 by allowing you MUCH more embers throughout the fight than simply spamming incinerate would. That being said, I can't really see how you have such a drastically lower number than me, unless you aren't using havoc to its fullest (I think I only managed to get 2 havoc/shadowburns on the adds..so even then its still a big gap between you and me).

Looking through some other bosses, the same issues continually arise. You have relatively the same number of CB/SB as me (or less) when the fight is lasting 1-2 minutes longer for you guys, which means you should be getting more!

Most top locks run M >> H >> C. In real world scenarios, mastery far outperforms haste/crit for destruction for a number of reasons that have been stated in multipled other threads (search function is your friend!). It also makes it super easy to switch between the 3 specs from fight to fight. Even for demo/affli, the point where 'haste becomes better than mastery' is really just the point where 'haste >= mastery' single target. In reality, mastery is better for realistic demo play, and I know nothing of affliction, so have fun with that rofl.

SB functions the same way CB does in the rotation. You want to save it up for procs/cds, unless you'll cap embers, or the target is about to die.

Maybe if you shed some light on why your chaos bolt/shadowburn is so low I can help from there, but the logs aren't very revealing in that regard :<.

First- thanks for replying quickly.

I'm still working on mainting RoF's uptime, same with Immolate. One thing I"m noticing is that (and this is something I'm trying to get out of the habit of) I'm letting Immolate drop while DS is up.

On Duruumu, I know that I tend to panic during the maze and get fairly scared of dying to the Disintegration Beam so I've gotten in a terrible habit of not using anything that's not an instant cast (even with Burning Rush, it feels like 2 stacks of KJC spells death on the back path....again, probably just psychologically panicking so that probably explains some of my fewer CBs/SBs.

So, I guess, the long and the short of it is: bad habits and working to make sure I'm more attentive with Rain of Fire/Immolate up-time (RoF is, admittedly pretty terrible. Going to try M>>H>C tonight (trying to keep Haste & Crit roughly equal), using the following gemming (as well as breaking 4pc T14 for 2pc T15), using the following gemming: 320 mastery in yellow/prismatic, int/mastery in red.

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One thing for Durumu if you aren't already doing it: sneak into the melee group.

I found it way easier. It's slower paced and I can focus on my rotation.

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Oh yea, I saw those fel flames and forgot to mention it. KJC makes fel flame essentially useless. Unless the fight calls for mannoroth's (primo/some heroic fights), or knocking back the add on heroic horridon, fel flame might as well not be on your bar.

Also, burning rush is your friend. There should be no damage during that phase, a simple rejuv will outheal the 4% you lose a second for using it. If you don't feel comfortable, throw it on, zooooom ahead.

Edited by gahddo

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Hey, just wondering on a few things that you said, im sure they are right but just because I have heard different from some other places just want to confirm they are right.

So, basically, what I'm seeing is that

1. You need to keep RoF up a significant amount more

2. Manage embers better

Now, improving #1 will directly improve #2 by allowing you MUCH more embers throughout the fight than simply spamming incinerate would. That being said, I can't really see how you have such a drastically lower number than me, unless you aren't using havoc to its fullest (I think I only managed to get 2 havoc/shadowburns on the adds..so even then its still a big gap between you and me).

So, use RoF in single target fights? Or are you talking about adds on Durmuru? I have heard about using RoF on single target, but because its so mana consuming and I have had my doubts about it I have never really got around to fitting that into my rotation.

Most top locks run M >> H >> C. In real world scenarios, mastery far outperforms haste/crit for destruction for a number of reasons that have been stated in multipled other threads (search function is your friend!). It also makes it super easy to switch between the 3 specs from fight to fight. Even for demo/affli, the point where 'haste becomes better than mastery' is really just the point where 'haste >= mastery' single target. In reality, mastery is better for realistic demo play, and I know nothing of affliction, so have fun with that rofl.

Again, idk if this is single target or not, but I have always thought mastery was the way to go with destro. Its just so many other places say haste is best, or crit is best and that haste = mastery, so I really dont know. I have done some tests and mastery with haste seems to work best for me, but I keep reforging my gear every other day to make sure, so I just need some confirmation here.

Sorry for this being off-topic, but I just wanted to ask while I could.

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The math exists in multiple places. RoF is 2x better than an incinerate.

If by 'so many other places' you mean sites that just run a simc patchwerk fight and declare facts about in game mechanisms (*cough* NOXXIC *cough*), then ok. Mastery wins in real world scenarios, period.

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