Arcane Mage 7.3

[Guest Zulabar]

After reading the stat prioreti of this guide, i can clearly tell this guy dosent play arcane much.. Or he dosent do dmg.. This is absolutely wrong, and should be removed.

When u play arcane u wanna stay at 4 stacks for as long as possible. PERIOD!! Only way u gonna stay as long as possible on 4 stacks is by maxing mastery. And this is not taking into count all those fights (raids or mythics) where u have to move, or adds die and u wanna stay on 4 stacks for next pack / adds or whatever..

I would say with the Quickening tallent(even after the nerf) crit is better than haste once u reach a sertent amount of mastery so u can stay for the full 50 stacks.

So with propper gear 45-50% mastery. The stat prio is   Int->Mastery->Crit->Haste or Versa(not sure about the last one)

I have not done any simcraft bullshit or "theorycrafting" this is just common sence and alot of hours played on arcane. 

To be quite honest this is not the first time i read complete bullshit here on icy-veins and would recomend ppl to head over to Altered-time for some good mage discusion.

Have a nice day.

 

[Valks 2,373]

On 10/2/2016 at 1:26 PM, Guest Zulabar said:

To be quite honest this is not the first time i read complete bullshit here on icy-veins and would recomend ppl to head over to Altered-time for some good mage discusion.

Hi there, sorry to hear that you're upset. Let's talk this through.

On 10/2/2016 at 1:26 PM, Guest Zulabar said:

by maxing mastery

Please feel free to read the guide and see which stat is currently weighted the highest after Intellect. It's no problem, I'll help you out:

Quote

1. Intellect: 1.00
2. Mastery: 0.85

Strange, Mastery is listed as the highest weighted secondary, and yet we're apparently completely wrong, despite you agreeing with the priority?

On 10/2/2016 at 1:26 PM, Guest Zulabar said:

Int->Mastery->Crit->Haste or Versa

Please feel free to read what Furty has said. Crit is listed as equal to Mastery because there is a TINY fraction between the two in terms of damage, but you will pursue Crit gear for fire, so it is very likely that you will want to gear both specs.

He even adds a disclaimer about it. For the rest of your priority, it is the same as ours. You can't clarify the last 2 stats because you have not tested it properly.

On 10/2/2016 at 1:26 PM, Guest Zulabar said:

I have not done any simcraft bullshit or "theorycrafting" this is just common sence and alot of hours played on arcane. 

So basically, you have no proof of what you are saying, but that doesn't really matter since you are literally agreeing with everything in Furty's guide, despite calling it wrong.

Thanks for your comment.

Edit: Also, note that you are telling people to go to Altered Time for a "proper mage discussion", yet what you are saying contradicts what Frozen has said concerning Arcane in regards to Crit. 

You seem to be very confused.

[Guest Scandark]

Hi, I wanted to know if an udpate for the best in slot was planned ? 

Since its atm max-crit items, wich is prolly not anymore the bests items for arcane mage ? Or am I wrong :p

[Valks 2,373]

4 hours ago, Guest Scandark said:

Hi, I wanted to know if an udpate for the best in slot was planned ? 

Since its atm max-crit items, wich is prolly not anymore the bests items for arcane mage ? Or am I wrong :p

It does need to be updated, yes. I'll remind Furty, thanks!

[Guest Vesmic]

Having someone that obviously does not main arcane write this, makes this guide come off extremely poor. If you suggest playing another spec in the guide for the spec, let someone else handle the guide. You should never suggest a stat because it could be good for two specs, that's just bad advice. Under weakness it is pointed to weak single target sustained dps? What? It is literally the best thing arcane does. What is this guide?

[Guest Sacuri]

Hi if BiS  is Not up to Date how simcraft Works without The right gear ? 

[Guest Jade]

I hate to say it but I have to agree, I have always loved icy veins and recommend the guides to everyone over anything else.  It is our go to for just about any information but this guide... it should have been written for arcane, not an arcane fire combo.  I don't play fire, nor will i ever play fire.  Now while i get its not the best spec to be, it is an alt I thoroughly enjoy playing for fun in my free time and I want it to be its best same as all my other toons, the best it can be as ARCANE.  This is the first time i've ever seen one of your guides show stats specifically recommending on the basis of another spec.  Most of the guide seems to scream "play fire not arcane!" and i don't think that's really fair, arcane isn't given a decent chance if its not specifically geared and played to be the spec it is, arcane.  Perhaps there should have been a separate hybrid guide for this arcane/fire combo because it feels like a slap to the arcane spec :(

[Valks 2,373]

On 10/7/2016 at 8:00 PM, Guest Vesmic said:

Having someone that obviously does not main arcane write this, makes this guide come off extremely poor. If you suggest playing another spec in the guide for the spec, let someone else handle the guide. You should never suggest a stat because it could be good for two specs, that's just bad advice. 

Hi there.

The point under stat weights specifically states that you should only stack Crit over Mastery:

Quote

if you plan on playing Fire as a main or offspec, as the differences are minor for Arcane but it makes an extraordinary difference for Fire.

You'll note that Furty is not telling you to play Fire here, he is simply telling you that IF you decide to play both specs, it is better to obtain gear with Crit and Mastery since it makes a tiny amount of difference for Arcane. The stats are extremely close together in value for Arcane. He still lists weights for Mastery over Crit, as well as saying why he lists Crit as better in the priority. 

In our "Viability" section, Furty doesn't tell you to play Fire. He simply states the Fire is better than Arcane currently, which is true. 

On 10/7/2016 at 8:00 PM, Guest Vesmic said:

Under weakness it is pointed to weak single target sustained dps? What? It is literally the best thing arcane does. What is this guide?

It's not, really. Thinking like this is thinking that we are still in past expansions. Arcane is no longer top at ST dps, instead being excellent at huge burst AoE. 

Generally right now, every Arcane Mage that you find in the top 50 parses is due to a high usage of Arcane Explosion. 

[Valks 2,373]

On 10/8/2016 at 1:46 AM, Guest Sacuri said:

Hi if BiS  is Not up to Date how simcraft Works without The right gear ? 

What do you mean? 

Our BiS list doesn't impact Simcraft usage.

[Valks 2,373]

3 hours ago, Guest Jade said:

I hate to say it but I have to agree, I have always loved icy veins and recommend the guides to everyone over anything else.  It is our go to for just about any information but this guide... it should have been written for arcane, not an arcane fire combo.  I don't play fire, nor will i ever play fire.  Now while i get its not the best spec to be, it is an alt I thoroughly enjoy playing for fun in my free time and I want it to be its best same as all my other toons, the best it can be as ARCANE.  This is the first time i've ever seen one of your guides show stats specifically recommending on the basis of another spec.  Most of the guide seems to scream "play fire not arcane!" and i don't think that's really fair, arcane isn't given a decent chance if its not specifically geared and played to be the spec it is, arcane.  Perhaps there should have been a separate hybrid guide for this arcane/fire combo because it feels like a slap to the arcane spec :(

Please see my comment above.

[Guest Jjorg]

It is unacceptable to have an outdated guide up for 2 weeks. The site is very high quality, and its just painful to read this guide

[Valks 2,373]

Just now, Guest Jjorg said:

It is unacceptable to have an outdated guide up for 2 weeks. The site is very high quality, and its just painful to read this guide

Would you perhaps elaborate on what is outdated? I'm aware that the BiS is currently in need of an update, but the priorities are correct.

It's fairly pointless to post a comment like this and yet give no information as to what is wrong with it.

[Guest Scandark]

Instead of debating on the  reliability  of the guide, what about we try to improve it by ourselves, debating on our toughts about the talents, and the in-game reviews.

I recently saw the DPS rankings on Noxxic, wich states that fire is supposed to be stronger in a "Max" format fight, meaning no moving or stop-hittin phase, and arcane being stronger on "Real" format fight, where you'd have to. I trust this and also in-game experience, on Ursoc heroic, I start over takin the other mage of my guild who plays fire, - and has better iLVL than me - around 1mn of fight with Quickening stack ( around 30 ) just makes me go crazy on dps. tl;dr :  fire =/= arcane, there's no best, its just fight format and player who makes difference.

Also, i wanted to note, I do play with Erosion, wich seems to be way stronger in high lenght fight than Tempest and no arcane familiar, i do prefer WoP, wich will get me like 8%-6% chance to get arcane missiles. At around 57% mastery, It takes me 30-45 sec after casting arcane power to get oom wich is huge, and allows me to keep my stacks of quickening after a 1 sec-cast Evocation, I just go nuts dmgs to 50% mana again and 40 stack, at 300k/dps, release all and wait for AP to be off cooldown.
 

What are your toughts on changing t1, t4 ( people seems to like charged up, I think super nova 250K burst every 25 sec is better ), and t6 talents ?

[Tigersharrk 4]

12 hours ago, Guest Scandark said:

Instead of debating on the  reliability  of the guide, what about we try to improve it by ourselves, debating on our toughts about the talents, and the in-game reviews.

I recently saw the DPS rankings on Noxxic, wich states that fire is supposed to be stronger in a "Max" format fight, meaning no moving or stop-hittin phase, and arcane being stronger on "Real" format fight, where you'd have to. I trust this and also in-game experience, on Ursoc heroic, I start over takin the other mage of my guild who plays fire, - and has better iLVL than me - around 1mn of fight with Quickening stack ( around 30 ) just makes me go crazy on dps. tl;dr :  fire =/= arcane, there's no best, its just fight format and player who makes difference.

Also, i wanted to note, I do play with Erosion, which seems to be way stronger in high lenght fight than Tempest and no arcane familiar, i do prefer WoP, wich will get me like 8%-6% chance to get arcane missiles. At around 57% mastery, It takes me 30-45 sec after casting arcane power to get oom wich is huge, and allows me to keep my stacks of quickening after a 1 sec-cast Evocation, I just go nuts dmgs to 50% mana again and 40 stack, at 300k/dps, release all and wait for AP to be off cooldown.
 

What are your toughts on changing t1, t4 ( people seems to like charged up, I think super nova 250K burst every 25 sec is better ), and t6 talents ?

Scandark I agree, we should totally ignore any attempts to change or criticize the guide, there is really no point since Blainie isn't going to listen and just argue. Trust me I have tried and its better to move on from it as you have suggested, we don't need them there are other sources out there (Arcane Fulffy being one) and people here who care enough about the spec (such as you) to have good discussions with.

That being said, I have been asking the same question when its coming to WoP over AF with a mastery over crit build (or as i call it Pure Arcane build), but how much mastery is needed till you can switch over or does it even matter; I currently sit at 34%?

Personally I haven't tried using Ero over NT yet due to most people are stating it does do more damage with higher stacks of Quickening; it might be worth a go since I hate mages having DoTs, we are not Warlocks. Also Wowhead has suggested using Ero over NT as well but that might be old and not updated guide as well. I personally like SN too since all CU does is get you to 4 charges quick but I would say it all depends on how much you use ABarr which I don't use it that much now'er days, sadly. Also kinda sucks that Res is on the same tier as CU as they might actually synergize better together than apart. I'll also make on post on Arcane Fluffy's youtube to see what he thinks as well.

[Guest Scandark]

9 hours ago, Tigersharrk said:

[...]There is really no point since Blainie isn't going to listen and just argue. Trust me I have tried and its better to move on from it as you have suggested, we don't need them[...]

Tigersharrk, I do think IcyVeins is a great website, guides are good. I'm not gonna trashtalk about their work, nor Blainie who's doing a insane job to reply to everyone as much as he can. Tho people are being idiots, talking sh*t about the guide. Its a forum to "discuss" about it, and i'd rather share my thoughts and theorycratfing results than fightin to prove that arcane is MasterRace, and there's no such thing. Blizzard knows more than anyone else, every spec has his low and his highs, and we should figure them.

But to answer you on the real topic of this discussion, there's a 50% mastery cap, at this point, the mana regeneration you get from [Mastery : Savant] start being self sufficient, meaning, you can prolly dish out way more spells without caring about TOTAL mana, and get the 2% dmgs deal from familiar, passive being totally irrelevant, tho Aluneth Mark does scale out of mana, its just not worth. Getting higher proc chance on AM, is as the relic choices, the best thing. And WoP does take in account the fact AB has twice the chances. In 2 fights on dummys with both mastery ( around 300 sec fight ) I got 8 more AS procs, it can be totally luck based, and you could get as much as me without the WoP but, AS is supposed to be 35/40% of your dps, and such, i'd go WoP all day, with high mastery build.

That being said, NT over Erosion... 8% dmgs boost to all your arcane dmgs or NT. I've made some research about it, and its seems to be the same result as up. The more mastery you have the more quickening you have, AB is obviously out scaling harder than any spells when dmgs cooldowns are going off, but at the cost of your mana, thats the arcane baseline. If you can manage your mana well and have good and fast rotations, the Erosion will be a big dmgs boost to AB and AM, tho it works while spamming arcane explosion in AOE scenarios, stacks on everyone, kinda funny ! For me NT just breaks rotation more than anything and i'd rather keep spamming my spells than cut them for a dot that is just not fitting the style. And I'm prolly missing the fact you'd in terms of AM procs, 2 NT = 1 AB, with any sort of haste,  so if you try fishing to procs, go AB, cost more mana but w/e if masteries follows. But not sure if NT would deal more dmgs while at 4 stacks, saw some logs with NT at around 10% of the dmgs dealt.

Charge Up is just meh, arcane barrage with 4 stacks -> CU -> arcane barrage ? I can see that happening with the legendary kilt wich would get you 32% mana in 1sec since CU isn't on global CD. But, hey, mastery = mana for hours !

TL;DR : If you want to scale and go mad mastery, forget about fire and crits build they just can't work together, hybrid doesn't exist. The 2 spec main stats differs so much, but mastery is low rated in arcane cause its hard to show the real value behind it. Deeply think it does work !

[Guest Khaiin]

Norgannon's Foresight is missing here: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/item/132455

[Valks 2,373]

On 10/10/2016 at 11:03 AM, Guest Scandark said:

Also, i wanted to note, I do play with Erosion, wich seems to be way stronger in high lenght fight than Tempest and no arcane familiar, i do prefer WoP, wich will get me like 8%-6% chance to get arcane missiles. At around 57% mastery, It takes me 30-45 sec after casting arcane power to get oom wich is huge, and allows me to keep my stacks of quickening after a 1 sec-cast Evocation, I just go nuts dmgs to 50% mana again and 40 stack, at 300k/dps, release all and wait for AP to be off cooldown.

Any chance you can throw me a log of you using the other talents you're suggesting? I'd like to see how they work together on a fight and I can't test it myself!

[Valks 2,373]

1 hour ago, Guest Khaiin said:

Norgannon's Foresight is missing here: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/item/132455

Notified Furty, thanks!

[Guest Scandark]

1 hour ago, Blainie said:

Any chance you can throw me a log of you using the other talents you're suggesting? I'd like to see how they work together on a fight and I can't test it myself!

Sure ! Once I manage ot make Warcraft logs to work, I work on sheets for own theorycrafting but I'll try to put some logs with my results

 

Btw, re-looked at the guide's talent page recently and noticed, Quickening description in not up to date :

•  which stacks up to 100 times. All stacks are cleared when  Arcane Barrage is cast.

And this :

•  is the best choice for for single target and AoE.

[evanbloom 1]

I feel I need to chime in on the issue of mentioning Fire in an Arcane guide, from the point of view of textual consistency.

In the section ”Viability in the current patch”, it is clearly stated that Fire is better, according to simulations. I am not contesting this fact. I think that's the only place within the guide where it is logical to mention other specs.

Any further references to Fire within the Arcane guide come out as inconsistent, even though they are mere statements of facts. Why would an Arcane mage a priori care if prioritising Crit over Mastery would be beneficial if they also play Fire? They may or may not be interested in Fire, you can't know that; if they are, there's a whole guide that covers just that.

The sentence

Quote

It is recommended that you stack Critical Strike instead of Mastery if you plan on playing Fire as a main or offspec, as the differences are minor for Arcane but it makes an extraordinary difference for Fire.

seems to suggest that the reader of the guide is considering Arcane as an afterthought, not as potentially their main spec. Then the author should ask themselves: who am I writing for? I think the answer to that question should be ”people who main Arcane” and only afterwards ”other people with an interest in Arcane”. Thus that sentence should read that Mastery is best for Arcane if you main Arcane, regardless of whether you are considering playing Fire or not.

It's all the more inconsistent because it doesn't say what you should stack instead of Mastery in case you plan to offspec Frost.

It's also more inconsistent because the Fire guide doesn't mention any stat suggestions in case you plan to offspec Arcane or Frost, and the same goes for the Frost guide: no suggestions in case you plan to offspec Arcane or Fire.

From a textual analysis point of view, I can understand how some of the previous posters see a bias in inserting references to Fire only in the Arcane stat weights. They might be all just facts, but taken in context they can have that effect.

So all guides should either include such offspec stat suggestions referencing all the sister specs, or neither guide should reference any other sister spec except in the ”Viability in the current patch” section.

This has been a linguistic/presentation/textual analysis of the guide taken in a broader context. I repeat I am not contesting any simulation results regarding which spec performs better. Hope it helps in writing clearer guides for the future as I have always greatly enjoyed this website's detailed approach to things.

[Saffina 1]

Hmmm just HOW MUCH valkluable is int for us,

For example i am stuck between these 2 cloaks >>

 

One will give me +72 INT and some shitty haste

 

but the other 1 will give me 2 of my best secondary stats? so when is it safe to assume that "ok if this give me 200 crit and 300 mastery, then its better than 200 int" or what ever ?

[Guest Scandark]

 

Noxxic Data : Intellect [9.07] > Mastery [7.57] > Crit [6.07] > Versatility [4.57] > Haste [3.07]  if you multiply each point of each item with the stat scaling result are : 11 728,84 rating for first item and 10 828,41 for second
Icy veins Data :  Intellect: 1.00 Mastery: 0.85 Critical Strike: 0.83 Versatility: 0.78 Haste: 0.72, with same treatment, 1346.29 rating for first and 1385 rating for second

At this point I would say I trust the 2nd result a bit more cause the difference beetween stats in the noxxic Data is a bit big

There we go now you can swap for the MM+6 even tho the wardens one is good

[Valks 2,373]

23 hours ago, Guest Scandark said:

Sure ! Once I manage ot make Warcraft logs to work, I work on sheets for own theorycrafting but I'll try to put some logs with my results

 

Btw, re-looked at the guide's talent page recently and noticed, Quickening description in not up to date :

•  which stacks up to 100 times. All stacks are cleared when  Arcane Barrage is cast.

And this :

•  is the best choice for for single target and AoE.

Okay, great. Reported both issues to Furty, thanks :)

[Valks 2,373]

4 hours ago, Saffina said:

but the other 1 will give me 2 of my best secondary stats? so when is it safe to assume that "ok if this give me 200 crit and 300 mastery, then its better than 200 int" or what ever ?

See response above from Scandark.

[Saffina 1]

Also is Mark of the Hidden Satyr really that good? over the course of an ursoc fight it did 1.7%??? seems garbage