Outlaw Rogue 7.3

[Carrn 284]

On 13/10/2016 at 9:54 PM, Guest Auburnveil said:

about mastery and vers, I came here looking for an answer as askmrrobot has started prioritising mastery over versatility in the last week or so, has something changed?

You probably just have almost none

[Valks 2,373]

On 10/13/2016 at 9:54 PM, Guest Auburnveil said:

about mastery and vers, I came here looking for an answer as askmrrobot has started prioritising mastery over versatility in the last week or so, has something changed?

Stat priorities are fluid and can change depending on exactly how much of a certain stat you have. Some classes have certain stats that are always superior, others have weights that are much closer and that can change if you have, as Carrn says, nearly 0 of one stat.

[Guest Rogue101]

On ‎9‎/‎22‎/‎2016 at 1:08 PM, Blainie said:

Hi there. Nope, it didn't.

I know this was from a while ago, but how useful are top 10 rankings when we all know how RNG dependent top outlaw numbers are going to be?  The issue isn't whether outlaw holds the top numbers on the charts, but what you can expect from it on average.  Every time I've bothered to check logs to look at top DPS, I'm seeing people who got multiple 6 buffs, or had 3 buffs most of the fight.  That's great when it happens - I had a three 6 buffs on Xavius that put me way over everyone else in my raid, but you can't rely on that, and I think it makes those "top 10" lists meaningless.

[Carrn 284]

2 hours ago, Guest Rogue101 said:

I know this was from a while ago, but how useful are top 10 rankings when we all know how RNG dependent top outlaw numbers are going to be?  The issue isn't whether outlaw holds the top numbers on the charts, but what you can expect from it on average.  Every time I've bothered to check logs to look at top DPS, I'm seeing people who got multiple 6 buffs, or had 3 buffs most of the fight.  That's great when it happens - I had a three 6 buffs on Xavius that put me way over everyone else in my raid, but you can't rely on that, and I think it makes those "top 10" lists meaningless.

Top 10 rankings for Outlaw are kind of weird. What's important to look at are the 25th-75th percentiles of each spec, which show more of an average 

[Valks 2,373]

On 10/15/2016 at 10:30 PM, Guest Rogue101 said:

 I had a three 6 buffs on Xavius that put me way over everyone else in my raid, but you can't rely on that, and I think it makes those "top 10" lists meaningless.

It wasn't pressed here, but I actually had a similar discussion with another user in reference to Arcane Mages. I went on to discuss 75th percentiles and such, as well as how smaller pools can affect rankings. Scroll down in this thread and you'll find me discussing Assass vs. Outlaw, since the user was using it as a reference point to say the guides were wrong.

[Carrn 284]

2 hours ago, Blainie said:

It wasn't pressed here, but I actually had a similar discussion with another user in reference to Arcane Mages. I went on to discuss 75th percentiles and such, as well as how smaller pools can affect rankings. Scroll down in this thread and you'll find me discussing Assass vs. Outlaw, since the user was using it as a reference point to say the guides were wrong.

Yeah I find if very discouraging that people will refuse me a raid spot because I play Sub and they heard it's bad. Similarly, they heard that Brewmasters and Disc Priests suck - Sunnier was talking about this the other day on Twitter, how it sucks that the community at large is so influenced by what the "top parses" are or what the World Ranking guilds are playing.

Outlaw will ALWAYS be the top parsing spec on every single fight because people will roll 6 buffs 2-3 times in a fight and slaughter everybody's damage. It won't even be close. But those times are the statistical outliers, and looking at the averages for each spec shows a much clearer picture.

[Guest Xero]

Any chance you can change the colour of 4 in the first artifact picture.

To my eyes (and i presume many others) it looks like it goes all the way from hidden blade to blurred time.

Hopefully I haven't wasted too much AP by going to Blurred Time before Blunderbuss.

[Carrn 284]

3 hours ago, Guest Xero said:

Any chance you can change the colour of 4 in the first artifact picture.

To my eyes (and i presume many others) it looks like it goes all the way from hidden blade to blurred time.

Hopefully I haven't wasted too much AP by going to Blurred Time before Blunderbuss.

Agreed, the colours are very similar lol

So long as you went left first, it's not a big deal

[ddkil 3]

Is guide ever gonna be updated? LUL

[Guest Kazumi]

On 10/13/2016 at 3:54 PM, Guest Auburnveil said:

about mastery and vers, I came here looking for an answer as askmrrobot has started prioritising mastery over versatility in the last week or so, has something changed?

Askmrrobot prioritizes mastery > vert for me too, and its not that I dont have much. currently sitting at 57% mastery and it wants me to gem more to get to 61% when I only have 18% crit.  

[Valks 2,373]

On 10/20/2016 at 6:19 AM, ddkil said:

Is guide ever gonna be updated? LUL

What exactly do you think needs to be updated? Your comment doesn't really do anything to tell us what you believe is wrong.

[Valks 2,373]

4 hours ago, Guest Kazumi said:

Askmrrobot prioritizes mastery > vert for me too, and its not that I dont have much. currently sitting at 57% mastery and it wants me to gem more to get to 61% when I only have 18% crit.  

Unfortunately, I can't really speak for why AMR is doing that. I don't use it, I use SimCraft for everything stat-related that I need.

[Guest Blayke]

This may be a silly question, and I apologize if it's been asked before (although I didn't see it).  In the trinket section it says that the Infallible Tracking Charm is our third bis.  Is this referring to the 815 trinket?  I noticed there is a "[D]" after it, which made me wonder.  What does the "D" stand for; is it referring to something different than the trinket we all had in our bags when Legion started?

Again, sorry if this is a silly question, but the idea that that trinket is really 3rd bis seems a bit counter intuitive.  Thanks!  :)

[Guest Skippy!]

So with the recent change to Pot of the Old War and the addition of Pot of Prolonged Power, is Old War still the go-to battle pot, or should we be using Prolonged Power instead?

[GandalftheCaucasian 0]

Thoughts on the new potions? After the change to Pot of the Old War, I'm wondering if Pot of Prolonged Power might be the new go-to battle potion. Any testing been done on it yet?

[Damien 1,514]

I'm quoting Furty on Skype regarding the pots for now.

Quote

[26/10/16 02:06:48] Furty: Old war is better for bosses
[26/10/16 02:07:00] Furty: Prolonged Power is better for dungeons/heavy cleave
[26/10/16 02:07:10] Furty: going to add a pot section to every guide when I have exact math
[26/10/16 02:07:34] Furty: some classes, for example shadow priest, use deadly grace on the pull and 2.5k stat super late into surrender when they have 100 stacks

 

[Guest Petmaz90]

Hey guys, might be worth updating your guide a bit. 

Quick  Draw currently only pulls marginally less DPS that ghostly strike, virtually equal now in fact. 

Also a much higher quality of life, attaining rolls is ez pz.

[Guest rs77]

Trying to understand how you guys list this spec as being "strong" in progression. It's literally dead last. Simming is fine and dandy, but the vast vast majority of Outlaw Rogues are going to have horrible numbers due to the horrid implementation of RtB its inconsistency and heavily weighted RNG to favor a string of  bad rolls, as well as terrible scaling as gear level goes up.

[Carrn 284]

12 hours ago, Guest rs77 said:

Trying to understand how you guys list this spec as being "strong" in progression. It's literally dead last. Simming is fine and dandy, but the vast vast majority of Outlaw Rogues are going to have horrible numbers due to the horrid implementation of RtB its inconsistency and heavily weighted RNG to favor a string of  bad rolls, as well as terrible scaling as gear level goes up.

Then on the flip side a large number of Outlaw Rogues are going to have excellent parses because of the extremely high top end potential of the spec.

It also doesn't scale that badly

[Carrn 284]

21 hours ago, Guest Petmaz90 said:

Hey guys, might be worth updating your guide a bit. 

Quick  Draw currently only pulls marginally less DPS that ghostly strike, virtually equal now in fact. 

Also a much higher quality of life, attaining rolls is ez pz.

Since Ghostly Strike does more, that is the talent that we recommend you take. 

You're welcome to use what you want; if you'd rather not worry about keeping the buff up that's up to you

[Furty 51]

On 10/27/2016 at 6:33 AM, Guest Petmaz90 said:

Hey guys, might be worth updating your guide a bit. 

Quick  Draw currently only pulls marginally less DPS that ghostly strike, virtually equal now in fact. 

Also a much higher quality of life, attaining rolls is ez pz.

I think the talent section both have checkmarks, all though Ghostly Strike is given the overall recommendation as it is the strongest in all situations (even if by slim margins). The main difference is that Ghostly Strike is much better for bursting and for AoE where there is a long lived target to cleave off of because Quick Draw provides no benefit during Dreadblades.

19 hours ago, Guest rs77 said:

Trying to understand how you guys list this spec as being "strong" in progression. It's literally dead last. Simming is fine and dandy, but the vast vast majority of Outlaw Rogues are going to have horrible numbers due to the horrid implementation of RtB its inconsistency and heavily weighted RNG to favor a string of  bad rolls, as well as terrible scaling as gear level goes up.

It's not dead last, for starters. Mainly though, a good progression spec can deal several types of damage effectively and also burst down important targets quickly. Outlaw does these things much better than the other specs with or without good RNG. Having a more frequent cloak cooldown is also an enormous advantage on Cenarius which is by far the hardest boss of the tier. Assassination is a more stable spec that deals comparable damage overall (and much more consistently), but it can only tunnel the boss and is essentially useless for everything else. 

[Guest rs77]

9 hours ago, Carrn said:

Then on the flip side a large number of Outlaw Rogues are going to have excellent parses because of the extremely high top end potential of the spec.

It also doesn't scale that badly

The statistics of how RtB works actually makes this statement completely false. You have a COMBINED chance of ~15% to roll either 3 or 6 buffs. Then you can go ahead and factor in if that is happening during a boss mechanic or whatever else might cause time off target. Not to mention MANY MANY Outlaw Rogues have testified to getting their "one 6 roll of the night / day / week" on  trash or during a mechanic or at the last few % of a boss.

The fact that there is a 2.5k posts long thread on WoW GD with waaaayyy more people reporting not only their own experiences with terrible output, but cold hard data proving it vs a handful of "git gud" trolls and "I'm doing fine in my LFR group" people, pretty much makes me question your position on the spec.... Will there be an OUTLIER population that can pull crazy numbers... sure... but the vast vast majority of players aren't producing and many many of those aren't cases of "git gud". It seems many of the people who parse well have a string of good rolls and/or have gotten strong legendaries.

[Furty 51]

8 minutes ago, Guest rs77 said:

The statistics of how RtB works actually makes this statement completely false. You have a COMBINED chance of ~15% to roll either 3 or 6 buffs. Then you can go ahead and factor in if that is happening during a boss mechanic or whatever else might cause time off target. Not to mention MANY MANY Outlaw Rogues have testified to getting their "one 6 roll of the night / day / week" on  trash or during a mechanic or at the last few % of a boss.

The fact that there is a 2.5k posts long thread on WoW GD with waaaayyy more people reporting not only their own experiences with terrible output, but cold hard data proving it vs a handful of "git gud" trolls and "I'm doing fine in my LFR group" people, pretty much makes me question your position on the spec.... Will there be an OUTLIER population that can pull crazy numbers... sure... but the vast vast majority of players aren't producing and many many of those aren't cases of "git gud". It seems many of the people who parse well have a string of good rolls and/or have gotten strong legendaries.

Let's be honest here - if there's any potential at all for good RNG a large audience is going to cry because they feel they deserve to get that output every single pull. Outlaw isn't the first or the tenth or the thirtieth iteration (look at Doom Nova in HFC, for example) and the variance in overall damage doesn't mean anything with respect to its level of use during progress.

[Guest rs77]

2 hours ago, Furty said:

It's not dead last, for starters. Mainly though, a good progression spec can deal several types of damage effectively and also burst down important targets quickly. Outlaw does these things much better than the other specs with or without good RNG. Having a more frequent cloak cooldown is also an enormous advantage on Cenarius which is by far the hardest boss of the tier. Assassination is a more stable spec that deals comparable damage overall (and much more consistently), but it can only tunnel the boss and is essentially useless for everything else. 

After the recent round of "buffs" (actually only a 2-3% buff), we are still in the very bottom echelon of DPS classes with little to offer other than a clear vines role on one boss, which BtW that shortened CD on cloak is still dependent on an RNG based roll of RtB. A role that ranged classes can also do, while blowing us out of the water on the meters. Outlaw also doesn't even compete with DH / Mage on either AoE and struggles to stay middle of the pack (unless you are blessed by RNGesus by a string of good rolls) on ST.

Again, I know you guys sim shit to death, but practical application is saying otherwise according to the majority of rogues playing the spec day to day... The output is completely unreliable and from a progression standpoint (which stresses consistency in performance) I still cannot see how you guys think this spec is "strong" in progression, it has the POTENTIAL to be strong 15% of the time and can be expected middle of the pack 50% of the time, but only if you have a combination of the following do the rotation well (many struggle with this due to shit RNG of RtB and boss mechanics) / you have BIS legendaries / get good rolls during time on target.

[Guest rs77]

2 minutes ago, Furty said:

Let's be honest here - if there's any potential at all for good RNG a large audience is going to cry because they feel they deserve to get that output every single pull. Outlaw isn't the first or the tenth or the thirtieth iteration (look at Doom Nova in HFC, for example) and the variance in overall damage doesn't mean anything with respect to its level of use during progress.

When the difference between getting good RNG (@ ~15% of the time) and bad RNG (at about 50% of the time) means either performing middle of the pack all the way to blowing it completely out of the water OR having a consistent night of bad rolls  barely breaking out of the bottom 3-5 DPS'ers in a 20 man raid and being frustrated to boot... Then I would say there is a problem. And it isn't crying when the people trying to tell you their piss is rain because they base their opinions on a handful of outliers parses. I'm sorry but a large portion of the Outlaw community doesn't agree with you on this, and its not because they are bad or "crying" due to the "potential" not being realized, its because the implementation of RtB is terrible and provides a completely inconsistent source of DPS pull to pull.