Retribution Paladin 7.3

[Guest Omnicknight]

Quote

thus invalidating simcrafts stat scaling feature, but in my own small scale tests of exchanging crit/haste, versa/haste and crit/versa amulets in simcraft, the crit/versa actually came out best.

I want to clear myself up, I left out a number of claims and assumptions that I was talking about.

I was told that haste would be the best stat to push even if simcraft wouldn't say so.(Full reason: simcraft checks stat scaling for current stats and current stats+1000). For my own test simcraft told me that stat priority on that character would be versa=crit>haste, which is pretty much what I found to be true in further tests. I was told simcraft would be slightly wrong on this and not recognize the great value of hitting some kind of non-obvious haste breakpoints. Simcraft would somehow not reach the next haste scaling breakpoint by checking +1000 haste. And this happened for pretty much every player that I heard talking about it on discord. That it happened to many different people with very differently geared characters equally seemed highly unlikely to me. I haven't seen proof for simcraft getting it wrong, either, so I still put my trust in the simulations being the best facts at hand. Since most retri paladins walk around with close to 0 versatility, simcraft keeps recommending versatility as most important stat to pretty much anyone who sims his retpala. My stance is that simcraft is trustworthy in its scaling calculation. I am open to being proven wrong and simcraft is actually making mistakes, but I would like that to be proven in some way beyond "I think that simcraft is wrong you should stack more haste"

Simcraft steers me in a direction of crit roughly equal to haste, versatility about half of that and mastery should be reduced even further while I am on just my artifact weapon and 1 piece of gear contributing mastery. Not even minding the fact that different talent setups scale completely different with haste/crit or the fact that Crusade adding 52% haste and bloodlust adding 30% haste already devalue haste for the burst damage phases, as every melee ability is instant cast, and only cooldowns get improved after reaching the minimum GCD of 1(0.75?) second.

The stat scaling for retri pala is a bit of a mess, even the !retpawn in the retri discord refuses to say anything beyond "simcraft your own stats". 

[Valks 2,373]

16 hours ago, Guest Omnicknight said:

Cheers

Hey there!

Thanks a lot for all of the work you've put into your feedback! I'll get our writers to take a look and review everything; we'll then see what we can do with it all!

Thanks once again for contributing :)

[Guest Tétroh]

in the guide it said to use talent VB if i have enough crit , im at 30% no buff, should i take it or still keep bow? kinda lost :S  ( im 30%crit 21%haste 19%mastery)

[Farion 23]

22 hours ago, Guest Tétroh said:

in the guide it said to use talent VB if i have enough crit , im at 30% no buff, should i take it or still keep bow? kinda lost :S  ( im 30%crit 21%haste 19%mastery)

For raids, take it on pure st fights like first boss and usroc other wise BoW

For dungs, it depends on your dung group if you need to go st then bow+gj or dh+tfoj

never take vb+gj.

Edited October 15, 2016 by Farion

[Guest Saisya]

Regarding the notion that we should never pass up upgrades, seeing as strength is our primary stat, I am really starting to question the validity of this with relation to secondary stats.

I am not in raid tiers yet, as I am a casual player. My item level is about 850 give or take based on gear choices. I still like to do mythic+ though, and want to be the best ret I can be.

I recently finished exalted with nightfallen so I could get my class shoulders and pick up the 6 piece +500str bonus. Swapping out several pieces of gear leads to the following changes:

30% Crit goes to 24%

19.5% haste goes to 23%

24% mastery goes to 26%

versatility stays around 2%

Net gain with these gear changes is +183 strength.

 

On a practice dummy without any buffs or consumables, my dps went down by about 7k. I then loaded each set into Simcraft and ran 10 sims on each set. The set with lower STR/Haste but higher crit won out every time by 3-4k dps.

What am I missing here?

[Farion 23]

On 10/18/2016 at 7:26 AM, Guest Saisya said:

Regarding the notion that we should never pass up upgrades, seeing as strength is our primary stat, I am really starting to question the validity of this with relation to secondary stats.

I am not in raid tiers yet, as I am a casual player. My item level is about 850 give or take based on gear choices. I still like to do mythic+ though, and want to be the best ret I can be.

I recently finished exalted with nightfallen so I could get my class shoulders and pick up the 6 piece +500str bonus. Swapping out several pieces of gear leads to the following changes:

30% Crit goes to 24%

19.5% haste goes to 23%

24% mastery goes to 26%

versatility stays around 2%

Net gain with these gear changes is +183 strength.

 

On a practice dummy without any buffs or consumables, my dps went down by about 7k. I then loaded each set into Simcraft and ran 10 sims on each set. The set with lower STR/Haste but higher crit won out every time by 3-4k dps.

What am I missing here?

Well, The stats recommendations in the guide are long-term recommendations and over time, applying those rules will give you reasonable results but that doesn't mean that the rule is perfect for all situations.
ps, you're giving up alot of crit.
 

Edited October 19, 2016 by Farion

[Pincho93 0]

What about Spiked Counterweight? Is it not that good? Ask Mr. Robots says that Spiked Counterweight (HC WF 830) is actually better than having Memento of Angerboda ( M+2 845).

Edited October 20, 2016 by Pincho93

[Guest ebiil]

So, I have and am using Mark of the Hidden Satyr currently, just trying to justify buying it again once I get a decent enough upgraded necklace. In a 30 second duration Crusade against a training dummy, only using Might, no pots/food etc, it did 390k damage (3.3% of 11.98m). So it seems like the damage will continue to build up, especially in raid fights.. but I can't see anywhere what can affect the procs damage. To what I have seen it's only versatility, but my current build right now has none and the tooltip says it does 71k damage a proc. Does Crusade/Avenging wrath affect the damage of it?

 

I guess if I really want to min/max then the 20k cost on my server is worth it, just wondering what others think of this enchant.

[Farion 23]

On 10/21/2016 at 2:54 AM, Pincho93 said:

What about Spiked Counterweight? Is it not that good? Ask Mr. Robots says that Spiked Counterweight (HC WF 830) is actually better than having Memento of Angerboda ( M+2 845).

This list shows you the trinket bis sorted by ilvl.
https://simc.derig.org/static/output/ft.html

[Valks 2,373]

On 10/21/2016 at 6:34 PM, Guest ebiil said:

To what I have seen it's only versatility, but my current build right now has none and the tooltip says it does 71k damage a proc. Does Crusade/Avenging wrath affect the damage of it?

Vers does affect it and it can crit.

[Guest PentaKim]

Hi there.

At the "bis list" I see 2 rings with Mastery on, and my mind can't comprehend why.

We clearly know that mastery is terrible for us, so i was expecting to see rings like the one on Nythendra?

In fact. There is ALOT of gear with mastery on it. Dosent this confuse people who arent sure on how to build Ret paladins?

[Valks 2,373]

On 10/25/2016 at 1:25 AM, Guest PentaKim said:

Hi there.

At the "bis list" I see 2 rings with Mastery on, and my mind can't comprehend why.

We clearly know that mastery is terrible for us, so i was expecting to see rings like the one on Nythendra?

In fact. There is ALOT of gear with mastery on it. Dosent this confuse people who arent sure on how to build Ret paladins?

Because they have Haste on them. There are no rings with more Haste on them in EN.

[Guest Sallissa]

Hi, looking over the tier 4 talent choices after the change to a passive, and I keep seeing " (assuming high levels of Critical Strike; otherwise, Virtue's Blade is not competitive)"

Could we have some clarification on what counts as a "high level"? I have 26.87% currently.

[Farion 23]

2 hours ago, Guest Sallissa said:

Hi, looking over the tier 4 talent choices after the change to a passive, and I keep seeing " (assuming high levels of Critical Strike; otherwise, Virtue's Blade is not competitive)"

Could we have some clarification on what counts as a "high level"? I have 26.87% currently.

You have to sim your self to find out if vb is good for you with the amount of crit you have or not.

[OrbitStorm 0]

Could someone shed some light on why it is recommended to rush to Ashes to Ashes and then reset, redoing all of the traits? I'm assuming that it would be for leveling purposes but perhaps I'm wrong. Just wondering what the benefit of the reset strategy would be.

[Guest Tolram]

It's all about DPS. Ashes to Ashes is good DPS gain and to get it fast is effective boost for your paladin. Longer route grants more DPS but takes much longer get to AoA. So DPS wise it's much better to use AoA while getting AP for the reset instead of going long route without AoA for so long.

[Guest Keidoriel - Ragnaros]

Choosing crusade is a bulls*** i think.... if you can read: it gives !!!3,5% !!! (instead of fix 35%!) dmg+haste boost and STACKING UP.... Yes at the end u get 52% boost. But till you stack it up, it wears off, so the 52% boost may infect 1 or 2 spells and not sure if u do a critical!.....thats a lot of dmg lose.... and Divine purpose proccing a lot more. If u chose Divine Purpose u can use Crusader Strike and Divine Storm more often (for free!). Or even Justicar's Vengeance if u need selfheal (helping out the healers). and yea...JV isn't just good for soloplaying... its a real help for healers as it heals good and deals very good dmg (Same as Crusader strike). Since u don't need so much mastery in legion you can put everything on to haste and crit. i am not a mythic player but for normal /hc kontent it surely worth it better, to choose Divine Purpose. U can say u lose 17% boost wen u chose Divine Purpose instead of Crusade but just think it over: Opening all wp traits gives you +7,5 sec to youe Avenging Wrath. So under youre 27,5sec Avenging Wrath haste and crit makes u procc Divine Purpose more often making you able to use youre HP consumers more often with a fix 35% Haste+DMG boost and that's much better. Also making less stress to build up the stacks.... so its easyer to handle.

It's just an opinion. But i built my talents this way.

[Farion 23]

5 hours ago, Guest Keidoriel - Ragnaros said:

Choosing crusade is a bulls*** i think.... if you can read: it gives !!!3,5% !!! (instead of fix 35%!) dmg+haste boost and STACKING UP.... Yes at the end u get 52% boost. But till you stack it up, it wears off, so the 52% boost may infect 1 or 2 spells and not sure if u do a critical!.....thats a lot of dmg lose.... and Divine purpose proccing a lot more. If u chose Divine Purpose u can use Crusader Strike and Divine Storm more often (for free!). Or even Justicar's Vengeance if u need selfheal (helping out the healers). and yea...JV isn't just good for soloplaying... its a real help for healers as it heals good and deals very good dmg (Same as Crusader strike). Since u don't need so much mastery in legion you can put everything on to haste and crit. i am not a mythic player but for normal /hc kontent it surely worth it better, to choose Divine Purpose. U can say u lose 17% boost wen u chose Divine Purpose instead of Crusade but just think it over: Opening all wp traits gives you +7,5 sec to youe Avenging Wrath. So under youre 27,5sec Avenging Wrath haste and crit makes u procc Divine Purpose more often making you able to use youre HP consumers more often with a fix 35% Haste+DMG boost and that's much better. Also making less stress to build up the stacks.... so its easyer to handle.

It's just an opinion. But i built my talents this way.

1= you have over 20 seconds uptime on your 15 stacks in crusade.

2= Sims shows does not show dp performing as nearly as good as crusade.

3= normal wings does not give you haste.

4=dp does not proc CS

5= you dont use JV unless you're doing a wq or under 5k hp

6= haste=crit=vers has same values with mastery abit below them



It seems you're new to the spec, so i would perhaps recommend you joining the paladin discord and discuss your exact same thought with the community over there.

https://discord.gg/hammerofwrath

Edited November 2, 2016 by Farion

[OrbitStorm 0]

17 hours ago, Guest Tolram said:

It's all about DPS. Ashes to Ashes is good DPS gain and to get it fast is effective boost for your paladin. Longer route grants more DPS but takes much longer get to AoA. So DPS wise it's much better to use AoA while getting AP for the reset instead of going long route without AoA for so long.

Makes sense. Thank you!

Might I suggest that this is added to the guide for a reference point? Would certainly clarify why someone should consider going through the reset process because there isn't any such clarity in the foreword of Artifact page.

[Guest HolyShoteR]

Guys i need some help deciding on my gear ,  i've been very unlucky with many mastery drops lately ,  should i focus ilvl(str)/masterty over crit/ver/haste?  if not how much is the breaking point like  10+ilvl/mastery > crit/ver/haste?

here is my armory if u guys want to check http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/azralon/Holyshoter/simple

[Farion 23]

21 hours ago, Guest HolyShoteR said:

Guys i need some help deciding on my gear ,  i've been very unlucky with many mastery drops lately ,  should i focus ilvl(str)/masterty over crit/ver/haste?  if not how much is the breaking point like  10+ilvl/mastery > crit/ver/haste?

here is my armory if u guys want to check http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/azralon/Holyshoter/simple

sim your self to find out :v)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pW5mWY9nkfWoRCOHfoXqeeGb8s-jMoSVy-g8uveUv4c/preview  is a guide on how to sim your self.
credits ; paladin's discord. https://discord.gg/hammerofwrath

[Guest HolyShoteR]

On 11/5/2016 at 9:12 AM, Farion said:

sim your self to find out :v)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pW5mWY9nkfWoRCOHfoXqeeGb8s-jMoSVy-g8uveUv4c/preview  is a guide on how to sim your self.
credits ; paladin's discord. https://discord.gg/hammerofwrath

Thanks a lot!  , i already tested it and made some changes , lowered my ilvl and increased my DPS!

[Guest Alcaman]

i got a question , why is eye for an eye even an option ? name me 1 boss that does physical dmg currently to anyone but tanks in EN and second  why also would someone not pick justicar's vengeance in raids ??  it's the best ability there is, realistically it can save you , world of glory seems also a bad choise especially on keystones ( haven't gone further than 9 yet ) ussually getting something down faster is better than off-healing , we got LoH for that sort of situations anyway 

[Guest Apox]

I'm unsure if it has been posted but it's also worth noting at higher gear levels there is another haste breakpoint at 31.25% haste, making haste at that level significantly better than all other stats, even strength, and making blade of wrath far more tantalizing than Blade of Justice.

[Guest Apox]

4 hours ago, Guest Alcaman said:

i got a question , why is eye for an eye even an option ? name me 1 boss that does physical dmg currently to anyone but tanks in EN and second  why also would someone not pick justicar's vengeance in raids ??  it's the best ability there is, realistically it can save you , world of glory seems also a bad choise especially on keystones ( haven't gone further than 9 yet ) ussually getting something down faster is better than off-healing , we got LoH for that sort of situations anyway 

One boss? Ursoc. 35% damage off Cacaphony and focused gaze charge in mythic,especially at the end, is awesome. That's why it's an option.

 

Justicar's vengeance is a truly awful talent at higher gear levels, the damage it deals is insignificant on bosses for it's cost, you need them to be stunned to do any real damage to get any real healing, and it doesn't synergize with anything else we use otherwise(Final verdict, Might of the Templar, Echo of the Highlord). You'd need divine purpose to make it worth pressing, which is just a strictly worse talent choice right now.