Damien

Retribution Paladin 7.1

141 posts in this topic

So Ret has no strengths, no weaknesses and isnt viable in a raid at all? Thanks blizzard...

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I feel like you wrote off a couple talents without really thinking about it. Blade of wrath has a shorter cd, which, until endgame when you have a lot of haste, is going to make up for its lower damage in holy power generation. And Justicar's vengeance synergizes extremely well with Divine Purpose, which will give greater sustain dps instead of just making us a 2 minute time bomb like we were in WoD and having nothing to show for in between wings.

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34 minutes ago, Guest Apox said:

I feel like you wrote off a couple talents without really thinking about it. Blade of wrath has a shorter cd, which, until endgame when you have a lot of haste, is going to make up for its lower damage in holy power generation. And Justicar's vengeance synergizes extremely well with Divine Purpose, which will give greater sustain dps instead of just making us a 2 minute time bomb like we were in WoD and having nothing to show for in between wings.

Agree

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Im sorry but this overview is totally wrong in some many aspects. But the thing that did it for me is that Mastery is going to be the worst stat after the prepatch and haste the best. So maybe you could inform the viewers better. 

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For the love of god,take this guide down. Spend some time playing ret and then rewrite is cause atm there are so many errors, be it stat prio or talent choices. You are going to make so many ppl play their spec wrong.

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All these comments are a bit worrying. Shibbx re-read the guide just before it went live, so we're a bit surprised by the backlash. We're going to get in touch with him again and we'll keep you updated.

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This guide is just.....wrong. Did anyone proofread this nonsense?

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15 minutes ago, Guest Jayne said:

This guide is just.....wrong. Did anyone proofread this nonsense?

Of course someone reviewed this guide. One of the best Retribution Paladins around (https://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/character/11194635/latest), so we're surprised at the backlash (as I said above). We'll be looking into it as soon as we get a hold of Shibbx.

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26 minutes ago, Damien said:

Of course someone reviewed this guide. One of the best Retribution Paladins around (https://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/character/11194635/latest), so we're surprised at the backlash (as I said above). We'll be looking into it as soon as we get a hold of Shibbx.

Well, oki, there are few posts about how this guide "is wrong in some many aspects", all from guests accounts, but to be honest, nobody pointed to any wrong statement, talent choice etc. Only mindless hate. So, please can someone tell us, what's exactly wrong with guide? ideally with some source.

 

Thanks

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absolute garbage guide with 0 effort in, 100% sure that the one who wrote it never touched retribution before and he was just typing down what he understood from talent tool tip that he found on wowhead

29 minutes ago, Damien said:

Of course someone reviewed this guide. One of the best Retribution Paladins around (https://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/character/11194635/latest), so we're surprised at the backlash (as I said above). We'll be looking into it as soon as we get a hold of Shibbx.

coming from some one with better logs, https://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/character/12749448/8/#metric=dps , this guide is absolutely embarrassing and misleaded.

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This is the kind of guide I'd expect to find on Noxxic, have you guys considering hiring Solsacra to review your guides? hes a much better theory-crafter and player imo.

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Echoing what most others have already said, the SimC reports I've seen (including the automation reports I ran myself) contradict at least 85% of what's here.

Execution Sentence falls behind every single FV parse I've run, Fires of Justice out-performs any other option in virtually every possible scenario.  Blade of Wrath out-performs Virtue's Blade in otherwise identical specs.  Justicar's Vengeance was ruled out as not being viable but is arguably the best talent in that entire tier (and not by a little).

From what I've seen, the only really "debatable" talent options are Divine Purpose vs Crusade (mostly a playstyle choice, but DP seems to win out if you're trying to optimize) and Blade of Wrath vs Divine Hammer in large-scale AoE encounters.

Stat weights seem way off as well, but this seems more case-by-case.  It seems what constitutes "best stats" has various shift points based on talent choices and gear.  What I've found:

(Feel free to punch holes in my assertions, I haven't had to sim for ret in a while.)

DPS Ranking:
71954 14.9% FV/TFoJ/BoW/JV/DP
68161 14.1% FV/TFoJ/VB/JV/DP
67776 14.0% ES/TFoJ/BoW/JV/DP
64314 13.3% ES/TFoJ/VB/JV/DP
55809 11.5% FV/TFoJ/BoW/JV/Cru
54869 11.4% ES/TFoJ/BoW/JV/Cru
50334 10.4% FV/TFoJ/VB/JV/Cru
50061 10.4% ES/TFoJ/VB/JV/Cru

Scale Factors:
Weights : 
Wdps=18.29 (2.14)
Str=8.00 (1.00)
Vers=5.34 (.69)
Mastery=5.31 (.68)
Crit=5.15 (.63)
Haste=4.18 (.60)

*These numbers use my paladin's current gear configuration (with Stone of the Elements substituted for the Drinking Horn). Yours may differ if you have different gear.*

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3 hours ago, Damien said:

Of course someone reviewed this guide. One of the best Retribution Paladins around (https://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/character/11194635/latest), so we're surprised at the backlash (as I said above). We'll be looking into it as soon as we get a hold of Shibbx.

Ranking in wod is great but doesn't automatically make you an expert in legion. I'd be curious to know how much time he spent testing these things on the beta. Slootbag the tank from Sere says often they haven't even tested a ret in their tests.  

I'm just a little concerned that this guide goes against every other source I've seen on every other forum and every other top end raider. Doesn't mean this guide is wrong exactly but I guess starting today we will see which camp wins out. 

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Posted (edited)

12 hours ago, Damien said:

Guide got fixed.

Edited by Farion

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3 hours ago, Damien said:

Of course someone reviewed this guide. One of the best Retribution Paladins around (https://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/character/11194635/latest), so we're surprised at the backlash (as I said above). We'll be looking into it as soon as we get a hold of Shibbx.

In the meantime, please put a disclaimer at the top of the guide indicating that the guide in its current form is wildly inaccurate and misleading. Please see this video for reference.

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This guide is just plain wrong in some areas and over simplified in others.  I doubt whomever wrote it did little beyond reading the tooltips.  Of course blade of wrath is useful.  It's lower damage is more than compensated for the fact that it's roughly 3 second lower cooldown will allow you to generate an additional 4-6 holy power per minute depending on your haste values.  Also Mastery is more of a Tertiary stat now and Haste up to 30%-ish and Crit are far better.  Of course once we have an artifact things will change again as opposed to what we only have available to us in the Pre-Patch.  If you want a comprehensive guide from someone who's done the research check out Thete Gaming on Youtube. I've been following him since the Alpha last year.  Legion playstyles in general are far more fluid than just stat priority and tooltips you need to actually know what you're talking about and obviously Icy Veins doesn't at this time.  This is sad because I've always considered them a reliable source of information. Hopefully they can review their guide and adjust it to be accurate so that people aren't mislead.

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10 minutes ago, Farion said:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/character/12749448/latest , My logs are still better than him and i would greatly say that the guides are misleading , baseless and not thoroughly written.

the author mostly just looked at the talent tool tip from wowhead and wrote a fan fiction about them. extremely embarrassing for such a site of your caliber to publish this rubbish guide.

Why are you saying "guides"?

Shibbx mains a ret paladin in the #1 PvE guild, there isn't much more we can do than work closely with him to make our Ret Paladin guide. He's finally awake now so we're going to see what's going on.

14 minutes ago, Guest Jayne said:

In the meantime, please put a disclaimer at the top of the guide indicating that the guide in its current form is wildly inaccurate and misleading. Please see this video for reference.

We'll first have a little chat with Shibbx.

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2 hours ago, Guest Jacob said:

This is the kind of guide I'd expect to find on Noxxic, have you guys considering hiring Solsacra to review your guides? hes a much better theory-crafter and player imo.

We asked him when our last Retribution Paladin guy stopped playing (a year and half ago), but he declined.

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Posted (edited)

8 hours ago, Damien said:

---removed---

Edited by Farion

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3 hours ago, Guest Nalar said:

Well, oki, there are few posts about how this guide "is wrong in some many aspects", all from guests accounts, but to be honest, nobody pointed to any wrong statement, talent choice etc. Only mindless hate. So, please can someone tell us, what's exactly wrong with guide? ideally with some source.

 

Thanks

Please see This video for reference.

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Guide wrong, just wrong as it is.

First of all you need get atleast 30% haste, so judgment duration will be same, as cooldown ( in guide haste №3 stat)

Second. Tier 1 talent "Final Verdict" > in theorycrafting then others, especially if you dont have 30% haste, so you must build your rotation, and let "execution sentense" hit while judgment debuff active on target, what is virtually very hard in many fights. Simplify - FV gives more damage output then other talents with Tier 7 talent Divine Purpose.Tier 2 talent "The fires of justice" gives more dps, then Zeal for single target boss, for AOE ppl grab "greater judgment". Tier 3 talent "Virtue`s blade" good, if you PVPing, or touching yourself while see big numbers on screen, for DPS output better second option "Blade of Wrath", because it has LOWER cd and puts MAGIC debuff on target (so you don`t lose dps due boss armor) sometimes your debuff will overright itself so you get small dps loss, but still this skill is BEST, "divine hammer" has so low dps, so don`t worth taking even for AoE. Tier 5 - Sure don`t take

'Justicar`s Vengeance", it`s your only option to heal, and it does more damage then TV since you don`t have Ashbringer with traits yet, and with "Divine Purpose" you can fire it up sometimes few times in a row! And last talent tier 7 Divine Purpose gives so much DPS, and you dont take it? Insane. Sometimes it procs 3-4, even 5! times in a ROW. Can you fire 1.3kk damage in 4 seconds? You want take - "Crusade", okay how Crusade works 4 ppl without haste in 20 seconds window with your build. Let`s say you`re smart and don`t have anything on CD and 5HP.

Start:Wings enable 3.5% burst, 1s(5hp)-Judgment1(to benefit from debuff),2s(2hp)-TV1(or ES) Now you have 7% burst,3s(4hp)-BoJ1 (with 10.5second cd, and yes-yes,pray that it crit man, pray with CRIT being number 4 in stat priority or maybe DH if you don`t want to dps at all and took talent with 12seconds CD),4s(1hp)-TV2 Now you have 10.5% burst(3stacks),5s(2hp)-CS1,6s(3hp)-CS2,7s(0hp)-TV3 And you already have 14% burst of dps,8s(0hp)-your ability`s on CD man, say thank to blizzard,9s(0hp)-still CD man,10s(0hp) left on wings - and your abilitys STILL on CD, you can`t use ANYTHING,10.5s(1hp)-you can use your CS №3, 11.5s(2hp) - CS4, 12.5s(4hp)-You can use your SECOND BoJ for duration of this "wings"(or not if you grab DH, since it will be on CD for 2 more seconds!),13.5s(4hp)-Time to use Judjment2 for debuff,14.5s(1hp)-finally you can use TV№4 and raise your burst up to 17.5%,15.5s(1hp)-your ability is on CD,16.5s(2hp)-CS5,17.5s(3hp)-CS6,18.5s(0hp)-TV№5, great now you have 21% burst,everyting on cooldown until your "wings" over.

What we can miss, 15% chance that you get -1hp use of TV?, you used 6 crusaders strike, lets say it proc TWICE(what is possible, but more likely you get 1hp discount during wings) even if it proc TWICE and your haste from Crusade allow you to use 2 more CS and 1 more BoJ, at end of wings you only get 27% burst for 1 melee atack, not even ability, others will be less (not even close to 52.5% wet dreams my friend.) Also in a middle of "afk" dpsing you can use new protective cooldown (don`t remember name) and stay in fire, so it blow off when you have maximum dps increase)

Please remove this guide , i`m afraid to look in other sections, and had so big hope on you guides for my alts.

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1 hour ago, Guest Jayne said:

In the meantime, please put a disclaimer at the top of the guide indicating that the guide in its current form is wildly inaccurate and misleading. Please see this video for reference.

I did. We're working on fixing the guide. Looks like we need to be more careful in the future.

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Thank you for your attention and swift action.

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We've gotten some help and 2 batches of updates went in already. Smaller and finer updates will follow over the coming days. Our apologies for being so long to take action. We had to first confirm with Shibbx that the guide was off and then find other people to help us fix it.

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