Retribution Paladin 7.3

[Guest augestor]

For raids, does Crusade beat out DP even on mid-high AoE fights?

[Valks 2,373]

On 9/17/2016 at 5:48 PM, Guest Sareth said:

So am i supposed to reset the artifact traits when i can go the long way to ashes instantly? (rank 18 + 24000 AP to reset)

It looks like it, yes.

[Valks 2,373]

23 hours ago, Guest augestor said:

For raids, does Crusade beat out DP even on mid-high AoE fights?

Yes, I believe it does.

[Guest Ret]

With Blade of Wrath being reworked for 7.1 will it still be considered the go to for single target?

[Valks 2,373]

15 hours ago, Guest Ret said:

With Blade of Wrath being reworked for 7.1 will it still be considered the go to for single target?

I would imagine it is still too early to say, since the full changes are yet to be released and finalised. We will update the guide for 7.1 when it releases.

[Farion 23]

On 9/18/2016 at 5:18 AM, Guest augestor said:

For raids, does Crusade beat out DP even on mid-high AoE fights?

Yes. in raids crusade wins out on dp and holy wrath in all situations.

On 9/19/2016 at 5:51 PM, Guest Ret said:

With Blade of Wrath being reworked for 7.1 will it still be considered the go to for single target?

Well if they dont nerf the proc rate for BoW (7.1) i could debate it will be our bis talent. as it's proc rate is insane :v).

[Valks 2,373]

Generic comment being mass posted over the comments threads guys.

We are aware of the changes and our writers are working hard to update the guides to suit what has changed. Currently, there is a lot of work still to be done and it's unlikely that every guide will be up-to-date immediately. Expect a flood of updates over the coming days that will answer all of your questions about what is now best after X change, in time for the reset next week.

Thanks for your understanding and patience.

[Guest Raldbthar]

Anyone else thinking justicars vengeance becomes even more valuable when picking crusade?

Crusade starts out giving a very low percentage to haste and damage increase and requires you to stack it by spending holy power before its powerful. The goal would be to stack it as quickly as possible to get the most out of this short duration cooldown, right?

Not easy to do with Templars verdict costing 3 hp, or 2 with a fires of justice proc.

Justicars vengeance allows you to stack crusade up much quicker than just building hp and dumping with tv.

Example here..

Starting a boss fight where you would use crusade.

1 get 5 hp

2 cast judgment

3 cast crusade

4 cast just veng

5 cast wake of ashes

6 cast just veng

And you will then have 9 or 10 stacks of crusade in only 3 attacks after casting crusade, depending on fires of justice proc or not.

Of course once you have tv buffed up with traits you wouldnt really use jv often. But i cant see the other talents on this tier having as much value as jv especially when picking crusade.

[Valks 2,373]

2 hours ago, Guest Raldbthar said:

Anyone else thinking justicars vengeance becomes even more valuable when picking crusade?

So, once that tiny window of Crusade damage passes, you then have a dead talent. You'll never use it. 

I mean, at a point where you have barely anything in your artifact, yes, you can and it works. Once you have some of the traits in your artifact, JV just plummets in value. 

I really don't think it's worth it taking JV in order to try use it with Crusade. TV will simply be more damage per holy power.

[Guest Djidam]

Hi, 

First off, thanks for the guide, great help.

 

I have Ravaged seed pod HM version from a bonus roll. Not very sure about this one and there's little info online about it. Some of my sims, compared to an 830 ilvl trinket with force and crit, put Ravaged seed pod slightly behind my 830 trinket (3k dps less) but competitive in AoE fights.

And I just saw that it was once a BiS trinket (replaced byt Ursoc), so is it still very powerfull (yet not a BiS) or just crap ?

Thanks for your time !

[Guest Templars Verdict]

now with the 10% Damagebuff from Templar’s Verdict, we dont need to use purpose proccs for Justicar's Vengeance ?

Thx for the commends.

[Valks 2,373]

2 hours ago, Guest Djidam said:

And I just saw that it was once a BiS trinket (replaced byt Ursoc), so is it still very powerfull (yet not a BiS) or just crap ?

I know that for some other DPS classes, this trinket was bugged and so dropped in value. I don't know if it is the same for Ret Paladin, but I would assume so.

If there is another reason, I'm tagging @Farion to help, because I don't know it!

[Valks 2,373]

1 hour ago, Guest Templars Verdict said:

now with the 10% Damagebuff from Templar’s Verdict, we dont need to use purpose proccs for Justicar's Vengeance ?

Thx for the commends.

I would assume that you don't use JV any more after the buff, no. I'm going to tag @Farion to help/confirm, since I'm not 100% sure.

[Guest Stat Values]

What are the current stat values for ret?

[Farion 23]

On 9/29/2016 at 0:59 PM, Guest Djidam said:

Hi, 

First off, thanks for the guide, great help.

 

I have Ravaged seed pod HM version from a bonus roll. Not very sure about this one and there's little info online about it. Some of my sims, compared to an 830 ilvl trinket with force and crit, put Ravaged seed pod slightly behind my 830 trinket (3k dps less) but competitive in AoE fights.

And I just saw that it was once a BiS trinket (replaced byt Ursoc), so is it still very powerfull (yet not a BiS) or just crap ?

Thanks for your time !

The pod is actually crap. so if you have a trinket that sims better than it , then go for it.
here a list of preraid trinkets to look for
https://simc.derig.org/static/output/trinkets_sols_st.html
and trinkets over all
https://simc.derig.org/static/output/trinkets_prof_and_860_world_st.html

On 9/29/2016 at 2:13 PM, Guest Templars Verdict said:

now with the 10% Damagebuff from Templar’s Verdict, we dont need to use purpose proccs for Justicar's Vengeance ?

Thx for the commends.

Nope, Jv is no longer valuable at all, d.p procs on tv or ds.
how ever i would suggest if you use crusade as its better than dp/holy wrath over all :v)

 

 

 

Sorry for not replying earlier, progressing mythic and getting my char ready is taking all my time. cheers

[Valks 2,373]

On 9/30/2016 at 0:38 AM, Guest Stat Values said:

What are the current stat values for ret?

What do you mean? Stat weights? They vary for each person, so you need to sim your own character for them.

[Guest Bulbs]

I got a feeling that u guys are kinda neglecting paladin's... They are one of the top dps single and AoE with the respective end gear 860+(use simulators, check the labbels in heroic and mythic developments or enter in a group with a good pally). U guys write stuffs like 

In single target DPS, the Retribution specialisation is currently performing well, compared to most other classes. While it is not at the top of the DPS rankings, it is certainly worth bringing to raids.

In AoE DPS, Retribution does decently, but does not shine.

We even't get a pro and con proper description, and if u guys says that a spec in the top 5 aoe labbel "does not shine" there's something really wrong with those avaliations.

ps: if those poor avaliations are old, then please update them.

[Valks 2,373]

21 hours ago, Guest Bulbs said:

I got a feeling that u guys are kinda neglecting paladin's... They are one of the top dps single and AoE with the respective end gear 860+(use simulators, check the labbels in heroic and mythic developments or enter in a group with a good pally). U guys write stuffs like 

In single target DPS, the Retribution specialisation is currently performing well, compared to most other classes. While it is not at the top of the DPS rankings, it is certainly worth bringing to raids.

In AoE DPS, Retribution does decently, but does not shine.

We even't get a pro and con proper description, and if u guys says that a spec in the top 5 aoe labbel "does not shine" there's something really wrong with those avaliations.

ps: if those poor avaliations are old, then please update them.

Our evaluations are based on the application of Ret in a real raid. Let's break this down:

A solid AoE fight is the Heart of Corruption, in which you would expect Ret to shine if it was a "top 5 AoE" spec. It's middle of the pack on the 75th percentile and on max DPS. It's definitely not performing as a top 5 AoE spec, as you call it. It does as we say, it does not shine, it just does "decently".

For ST, as we say, it performs well compared to most other classes.

[Pincho93 0]

By the looks of it and after getting the trnket, Nature's Call is far from being a BiS trinket. Asked someone to sim me with Nature's Call (875) and Spiked Counterweight (830) and Spiked did about 1.5k more DPS thatn Nature's Calle being 45 WHOLE ilvl above.

[Guest Mint]

I think it was made clear at this point by the game developers, that at least Ursoc's paw is not working correctly (a GM confirmed this, search on google). I therefore conclude, that many other raid trinkets are broken aswell, because, as you said, a blue 830 can/should/has never beaten a raid 875 before. The only thing I hope is, that they will fix them a) fast and b) 'old/bad' trinkets will get the buff retrospectivlely, so I am not punished by getting the item at the wrong time.

btw, I am using 850 Ursoc's atm, it is not good. Depending on the encounter the dot does 1,5-3% of my total damage (852 ilvl overall). My blue 825 horn is close if not better. Just got a 835 seed pot in LFR, I'll test that out for sure.

For the BiS-List I would hope to find a note added rather sooner than later, that the BiS-trinkets are totally not BiS ATM.

[Valks 2,373]

On 10/7/2016 at 4:00 PM, Pincho93 said:

By the looks of it and after getting the trnket, Nature's Call is far from being a BiS trinket. Asked someone to sim me with Nature's Call (875) and Spiked Counterweight (830) and Spiked did about 1.5k more DPS thatn Nature's Calle being 45 WHOLE ilvl above.

The trinket recommendations have been completely revamped and updated, so hopefully this can now account for all the issues that trinkets have, as well as the DPS contributions they give!

[Valks 2,373]

On 10/8/2016 at 1:53 PM, Guest Mint said:

For the BiS-List I would hope to find a note added rather sooner than later, that the BiS-trinkets are totally not BiS ATM.

See my comment above. Thanks!

[Guest Mint]

3 hours ago, Blainie said:

The trinket recommendations have been completely revamped and updated, so hopefully this can now account for all the issues that trinkets have, as well as the DPS contributions they give!

Hey, thank you. But you are missing Horn of Valor now, which is a very good trinket, as you know. Probably just slipped through in the editing process.

After having read multiple other ret guides on other forums, the Ivy-Veins BiS list gets shittalked a lot. I wanted to ask two things directly, which is said about the List in most other forums: 1. It is said that the IV list focuses too much on haste and is 'corrupted' by mastery. An Example would be the Neck slot, where we gain another 1k Mastery, which is not very good. (Where we could also take the haste/crit one from Cenarius)  Also it is said that after certain breakpoints in haste (eg. 20/25%) it is worth focusing on other stats such as versa and crit instead of aditional haste. Even though I have not simmed stuff myself many other people did and provided evidence to these statements in the other forums. I followed the BiS-list blindly (...) and I am now at 21 crit 23,5 haste and 30 mastery and I believe sacrificing some haste in order to avoid mastery to gain versa and crit would have been better.

Another thing I noticed with the artefact relicts: In the IV guide (at least the last time I checked) you have a rule of thumb where it is said to always take the higher ilvl one, regardless of the boost and only with two of the same ilvl start comparing. I followed this blindly (my fault, of course) and replaced a +40 crusade-uptime-boost with a +42 random one, although  afterwards I read that someone simmed that a crusade 2,5 sec buff is worth 8 ilvls on his char.

I am very thankful for the guide and hope my post does not get misunterstood, as I only intended to clear up things I personally dont understand/ read differently elsewhere.

[Farion 23]

4 hours ago, Guest Mint said:

Hey, thank you. But you are missing Horn of Valor now, which is a very good trinket, as you know. Probably just slipped through in the editing process.

After having read multiple other ret guides on other forums, the Ivy-Veins BiS list gets shittalked a lot. I wanted to ask two things directly, which is said about the List in most other forums: 1. It is said that the IV list focuses too much on haste and is 'corrupted' by mastery. An Example would be the Neck slot, where we gain another 1k Mastery, which is not very good. (Where we could also take the haste/crit one from Cenarius)  Also it is said that after certain breakpoints in haste (eg. 20/25%) it is worth focusing on other stats such as versa and crit instead of aditional haste. Even though I have not simmed stuff myself many other people did and provided evidence to these statements in the other forums. I followed the BiS-list blindly (...) and I am now at 21 crit 23,5 haste and 30 mastery and I believe sacrificing some haste in order to avoid mastery to gain versa and crit would have been better.

Another thing I noticed with the artefact relicts: In the IV guide (at least the last time I checked) you have a rule of thumb where it is said to always take the higher ilvl one, regardless of the boost and only with two of the same ilvl start comparing. I followed this blindly (my fault, of course) and replaced a +40 crusade-uptime-boost with a +42 random one, although  afterwards I read that someone simmed that a crusade 2,5 sec buff is worth 8 ilvls on his char.

I am very thankful for the guide and hope my post does not get misunterstood, as I only intended to clear up things I personally dont understand/ read differently elsewhere.

Well first of all thank you for the reminder on horns.

Secondly bis list is a basic guideline to what you want to keep your eyes on if it drops as what was mentioned above the bis list it self. if a better stats item drops from mythic dungs/ raid for you then go for it.

and about the relics, until an official sims comes from theorycrafters them selves, (solsacra,msserano) about them, i will stay to my point. how ever, ONE a.w relic is a must so it lines up with your FCM trinket. but other than that, its still same.

 

[Guest Omnicknight]

I cannot believe this actually got updated, good work on getting the trinket list fixed.

After my own tests and some words about how secondary stats scale in breakpoints except versatility which scales linearly, I dare to claim that the stat priority is as follows: haste ~>crit >versa >>>>>mastery

I would rather have some random few thousand versatility on my gear than having mastery. Directly replacing say 880 beartooth necklace with a warforged/high mythic+ 880 warden pendant increases dps. In my own sim from 337.8k to 340k. I think a good rule of thumb stat ratio to work towards would be 2 crit, 2haste, 1versa, 0mastery. That versa and crit are more useful than believed is likely the main reason why unstable arcano crystal trinket ranks so high(while mastery is provably awful).

In the discord Mserrano said haste doesn't look good on sims because of breakpoints thus invalidating simcrafts stat scaling feature, but in my own small scale tests of exchanging crit/haste, versa/haste and crit/versa amulets in simcraft, the crit/versa actually came out best. The big haste breakpoints I know of are at 12.5% and 30+%  which leaves a very wide gap. For itemization in that gap I have not yet heard a convincing reason or seen proof that haste is straight better than crit, or that crit is not better than versatility or that mastery is not the worst or that the stat scaling feature of simcraft actually is wrong. So many retris walk around with close to 0 versatility because "the guides said so". I would welcome to be proven wrong on this. Also the haste breakpoints is based on judgment buff duration, thus reliant on mastery, thus would matter a lot more if mastery wasn't really bad. Virtue's Blade on the other hand scales better with crit than Blade of Wrath and VB surpasses BoW in simcraft somewhere around the 25-27% crit mark, which is very significant.

Going over to talents Greater Judgment/Divine Hammer from that same tier starts becoming good when you expect 5+ target fights to be more important than single target fights. i.e you spend more time on all the big trashpack pulls than you spend on the bossfights of a mythic+ dungeon. Somewhere after 10+ targets though, Fires of Justice/Blade of Wrath starts to outperform GJ/DH in aoe dps through sheer holy power generation to cast more Divine Storms(better single target dps goes without saying GJ/DH is the lowest single target damage combination). Justicar's Vengeance has the unique benefit of doublings its 800% attack damage to 1600% attack damage against stunned targets. Repentance and Blinding Light daze do not count for that, so combine only with Hammer of Justice. If you can find a trash mob to stun and use JV on it actually is the highest damage output. For raiding purposed, the corruption and mindflay tentacles on the Ilgynoth fight, the Twisted sisters in the Cenarius fight and all minor adds in the Xavius fight can be stunned afaik and are excellent targets to start the second crusade on midfight. The crusade startup rotation with JV is (at 5 holy power) Judgement, Hammer of Justice(use crusade and trinket, ideally from one macro), JV, WoA, JV, CS, BoJ, TV, for 14 stacks of crusade in 6 Global Cooldowns. 

Speaking of Crusade, Crusade is not optional. After you attain 18 artifact levels on your ashbringer, you should have +7.5 sec duration increase for AW/Cru(+ possible 2.5 sec per relic with the trait), the difference between DP and Cru isn't small anymore. Max stacks Cru gives 52.5% damage and 52.5% haste, which is simply amazing and outperforms DP by a wide margin. The ramp up takes a bit of time, between 6 and 13 Global Cooldowns, depending on your chosen rotation. The added AW duration from Ashbringer is guaranteed to be extra seconds of 52.5% increased damage though, which makes Xavius' Fire relic the best in slot relic by far.

 

For Food, Fishbrul Special(fireball food) is noticably better for single target damage than Azshari salad, although I think fireball food types are not implemented in simcraft. Same reasoning as why Hidden Satyr is recommended on neck enchant it does more damage than the alternatives.

 

I have run a lot of simcraft simulations and done dummy tests to come to these observations, so maybe the next update might include some of this stuff. 

Cheers