Retribution Paladin 7.3

[Valks 2,373]

5 hours ago, Guest Archuriel said:

Am I just getting extremely bad luck with TV crits or is there something wrong with how crit is applied to the main attack of TV vs. Echo?

As Farion said, please do let us know if this continues or you notice a trend of it! It's super helpful when people come back to update us on their findings!

[Farion 23]

7 hours ago, Guest Archuriel said:

I have noticed something that might answer why my SIMS say I should have much higher DPS than I am pulling.  I noticed when testing on a target dummy that I was getting really bad dps during wings (700kish) but overall my abilities were performing as intended, i.e. Crit rates were around the mark.  I realized that I was not getting Templar's Verdict crit during my crusade.  I went back and tested again with a crusade only parse and noticed that I primarily got Echo of the Highlord TV crit, not the main attack.  However, combat logs record it as a TV crit.  I started going back through old parses and realized a crit % for TV was most likely just Echo crit when I had low dps.  I did some more testing and went through Skada, my average crit over a 4min parse was 600k with TV!  The programs are incorrectly counting Echo crits as TV crits.  IMO, sims are doing the same thing and applying your crit rate to the baseline TV attack, when it seems like the main attack is VASTLY underperforming.  As anyone else noticed this going on?  For example, I sim at like 630k over 4 mins but at a dummy I'm lucky to get 530k.  I am keeping the correct rotation and my parses are similar in cast numbers to the higher ones.  Am I just getting extremely bad luck with TV crits or is there something wrong with how crit is applied to the main attack of TV vs. Echo?

 

2 hours ago, Blainie said:

As Farion said, please do let us know if this continues or you notice a trend of it! It's super helpful when people come back to update us on their findings!

Okay, after further discussions and checking my logs i will conclude that :

Crits works with tv properly, but echo is shown the same number as tv just lower number. So you can full crusade with 5 tv crits on 5 tv casts but you will have a total of 10 hits (cause echo) , 5 of which could only be the echo crits and 0 from the initial hit crits.

Edited February 3, 2017 by Farion

[Guest Archuriel]

I am probably over thinking it, but I feel as if I never get good RnG with main TV crits.  I compared one of the top Krosus parses to mine. Roughly the same number of casts and damage for all abilities except TV. His TV averaged 400k more per hit AND had a lower CRIT rate than mine.  So in my mind, the difference in the top parses is purely RnG crits during crusade. Probably a bit narrow minded, but what I see seems to justify it.

My parse

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/mwhHc8ZDgRkPJGKC#fight=1&type=summary&source=20&start=0&end=316923

 

One of the top parses

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/vV2g6ypNfbZ4THCd#fight=31&type=summary&source=11

 

I know the top parse is a heroic kill, but it was similar in duration and ability usage to mine. Another difference is tier set, however that doesn't account for the massive TV damage delta. 

[Farion 23]

8 minutes ago, Guest Archuriel said:

I am probably over thinking it, but I feel as if I never get good RnG with main TV crits.  I compared one of the top Krosus parses to mine. Roughly the same number of casts and damage for all abilities except TV. His TV averaged 400k more per hit AND had a lower CRIT rate than mine.  So in my mind, the difference in the top parses is purely RnG crits during crusade. Probably a bit narrow minded, but what I see seems to justify it.

My parse

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/mwhHc8ZDgRkPJGKC#fight=1&type=summary&source=20&start=0&end=316923

 

One of the top parses

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/vV2g6ypNfbZ4THCd#fight=31&type=summary&source=11

 

I know the top parse is a heroic kill, but it was similar in duration and ability usage to mine. Another difference is tier set, however that doesn't account for the massive TV damage delta. 

Your tv : http://imgur.com/a/z34us 

his t.v :http://imgur.com/a/QmjQF

you and him had roughly same crit chance, he probably over gear you/4 sets=more tv .

just the case being : 1=unlucky, 2= overthinking it, and lastly get more gear.

refer to my post up to see how it's working

 

 

[Guest Archuriel]

4pc seems to be more valuable than thought I guess, getting as many TV into crusade as possible. I don't see how 2% in stats and maybe 500 more strength equals 400k more per hit on average (not counting that more hits would further deflate this number with roughly a 25% CRIT rates).  It seems that in order to parse well you have to get TV CRIT during crusade and not echo crits. Bad class design imo

[Farion 23]

50 minutes ago, Guest Archuriel said:

4pc seems to be more valuable than thought I guess, getting as many TV into crusade as possible. I don't see how 2% in stats and maybe 500 more strength equals 400k more per hit on average (not counting that more hits would further deflate this number with roughly a 25% CRIT rates).  It seems that in order to parse well you have to get TV CRIT during crusade and not echo crits. Bad class design imo

Regardless, simc is the mean result, you could go higher or lower , if you're consistently lower then it's a performance issue.

Edited February 3, 2017 by Farion

[Valks 2,373]

13 minutes ago, Farion said:

Regardless, simc is the mean result, you could go higher or lower , if you're consistently lower then it's a performance issue.

Just something to add to this also - if you're taking a top parse to compare with, it's 100% going to be on the "high" RNG scale, otherwise it wouldn't be a top parse.

[Guest Archuriel]

25 minutes ago, Blainie said:

Just something to add to this also - if you're taking a top parse to compare with, it's 100% going to be on the "high" RNG scale, otherwise it wouldn't be a top parse.

Good point, hadn't really thought about it that way. My gear setup heavily favors crusade, so I'll wait until I get 4pc to see how I should redistribute stats. I really don't think it's a performance issue, I feel like everything is in in line. WTB last place DPS deaths before lust/crusade/ old war haha.

[PatrickHenry 293]

On 1/16/2017 at 5:07 AM, Blainie said:

I would only ever use it if I have absolutely 100% nothing else to cast. It generates no HP in a spec that relies almost entirely on HP damage.

It could be useful in target transitions running from one place to another, as its ranged.  If your Blade is on CD and need extra dps (outside of Judgement and DS) for some reason, like Bloods on Tichondrius maybe? 

Justice Gaze Legendary helm might make it even more useful.  But still in a rather limited capacity. 

[Valks 2,373]

On 2/3/2017 at 4:01 PM, Guest Archuriel said:

Good point, hadn't really thought about it that way. My gear setup heavily favors crusade, so I'll wait until I get 4pc to see how I should redistribute stats. I really don't think it's a performance issue, I feel like everything is in in line. WTB last place DPS deaths before lust/crusade/ old war haha.

Let us know how your testing/changes go! And glad to see that you got the help you needed eventually! :D

[Valks 2,373]

17 hours ago, PatrickHenry said:

It could be useful in target transitions running from one place to another, as its ranged.  If your Blade is on CD and need extra dps (outside of Judgement and DS) for some reason, like Bloods on Tichondrius maybe? 

Justice Gaze Legendary helm might make it even more useful.  But still in a rather limited capacity. 

Yeah, that's also another use, true. If you just simply have nothing to use at range. Thanks!

[Guest Jake]

The guide states it is worth sacrificing some item levels for an artifact relic that improves Wrath of the Ashbringer. Just wondering how many levels it's worth sacrificing? I have a iLvl 840 Fire relic with Wrath of the Ashbringer (+40 item levels). Does anyone know if it'd be better to keep that or equip the iLvl 860 fire relic with sharpened edge (+46 item levels)?

 

Thanks!

[Valks 2,373]

2 minutes ago, Guest Jake said:

Does anyone know if it'd be better to keep that or equip the iLvl 860 fire relic with sharpened edge (+46 item levels)?

Not sure on the exact numbers, tagging @Farion

[Farion 23]

17 hours ago, Guest Jake said:

The guide states it is worth sacrificing some item levels for an artifact relic that improves Wrath of the Ashbringer. Just wondering how many levels it's worth sacrificing? I have a iLvl 840 Fire relic with Wrath of the Ashbringer (+40 item levels). Does anyone know if it'd be better to keep that or equip the iLvl 860 fire relic with sharpened edge (+46 item levels)?

 

Thanks!

This is Chart is taken from the Paladin Discord which the link to enter there can be found up in the guide introduction.

Edited February 9, 2017 by Farion

[Guest Jake]

Awesome thank you! Both relics would be very close then, with sharpened edge having a slight edge! Thanks again

[Morfraen 0]

On 2/3/2017 at 6:28 AM, Guest Archuriel said:

4pc seems to be more valuable than thought I guess, getting as many TV into crusade as possible. I don't see how 2% in stats and maybe 500 more strength equals 400k more per hit on average (not counting that more hits would further deflate this number with roughly a 25% CRIT rates).  It seems that in order to parse well you have to get TV CRIT during crusade and not echo crits. Bad class design imo

Did he have the retribution buff? Most top parses for ret have high uptime on that. It really makes it hard to compare.

[Valks 2,373]

22 hours ago, Guest Jake said:

Awesome thank you! Both relics would be very close then, with sharpened edge having a slight edge! Thanks again

Glad to see you got the help needed :)

[PatrickHenry 293]

Jan 17 - and out of nowhere Haste is now the top stat?  My simc must need updating.

[Guest Caervek]

Hi, the ret guide "easy mode" section says to use execution sentence for ST instead of Final Verdict. Now I hope I don't come off arrogant but lets compare those talents:

Final Verdict: Provides a decent flat damage buff to both the ST and AoE holy power spender.

Execution Sentence: Adds an additional button to press, a ST holy power spender which depending on gear may offer a small increase to ST damage while making the rotation more difficult/stressful.

Again I'm not trying to sound arrogant, but which of those two sounds "easy mode"?

[Farion 23]

On 2/23/2017 at 2:51 PM, Guest Caervek said:

Hi, the ret guide "easy mode" section says to use execution sentence for ST instead of Final Verdict. Now I hope I don't come off arrogant but lets compare those talents:

Final Verdict: Provides a decent flat damage buff to both the ST and AoE holy power spender.

Execution Sentence: Adds an additional button to press, a ST holy power spender which depending on gear may offer a small increase to ST damage while making the rotation more difficult/stressful.

Again I'm not trying to sound arrogant, but which of those two sounds "easy mode"?

I don't think the point of "easy mode" is to make the class work easier for you,
I do believe it was added as an "Easier" TLDR for the full guide. so instead of going through many sections you just look at one page and do it.

Regardless, will replace E.S with F.V as people who come to the easy mode are alts/new people with no gear hence E.S will be useless for them, As it scales with gear.

Cheers for reminding me about it haha.

[Guest geekgirl101]

I've been using simcraft fairly recently and just getting a gist of how it works, and I noticed it keeps trying to top my haste over 30%.  Isn't that a bit over-exaggerated?  I thought rets only needed somewhere between 21-23% haste and to stack versatility and crit.  Right now I've got 20% crit, 21% haste, 20% mastery, and 12% versatility and quite a fair amount of gear to swap around for experimenting with.  If I follow simcraft/pawn and equip the gear it recommends I use I end up with 15% crit, 32% haste, 19% mastery, and 8% versatility and I'm losing a lot of dps.

[Guest Scim]

I have a question about using Crusade with BL/Heroism/TW. Is it a good idea to use crusade during BL? With haste >25% + BL +15 stacks of Crusade it seems that some skills are rendering more time, than an actual cooldown. I think the best way is to use Crusade when BL buff will fall down in ~10 seconds. So we can stack up Crusade buff as fast as possible. And if it is true, Potion of the Old War can be replaced with Potion of Prolonged Power because second potion will last longer and grant you better stats during BL and Crusade

[Farion 23]

17 hours ago, Guest geekgirl101 said:

I've been using simcraft fairly recently and just getting a gist of how it works, and I noticed it keeps trying to top my haste over 30%.  Isn't that a bit over-exaggerated?  I thought rets only needed somewhere between 21-23% haste and to stack versatility and crit.  Right now I've got 20% crit, 21% haste, 20% mastery, and 12% versatility and quite a fair amount of gear to swap around for experimenting with.  If I follow simcraft/pawn and equip the gear it recommends I use I end up with 15% crit, 32% haste, 19% mastery, and 8% versatility and I'm losing a lot of dps.

I don't think haste being good for you is an over-exaggerating as for me it says haste>strength, and dont use pawn's default string, sim your self first, then wear the armor/slot you want to see if it's a dps increase or not, then sim your self again to see if there was a gain, do that for all your pieces.

1 hour ago, Guest Scim said:

I have a question about using Crusade with BL/Heroism/TW. Is it a good idea to use crusade during BL? With haste >25% + BL +15 stacks of Crusade it seems that some skills are rendering more time, than an actual cooldown. I think the best way is to use Crusade when BL buff will fall down in ~10 seconds. So we can stack up Crusade buff as fast as possible. And if it is true, Potion of the Old War can be replaced with Potion of Prolonged Power because second potion will last longer and grant you better stats during BL and Crusade

No, always use Crusade+Bl, and old war is still our best potion regardless.

Edited February 27, 2017 by Farion

[bmetok 0]

It seems like Justicar's Vengeance would be good to quick-load stacks of Crusade for more burst. If my math is correct you can get it to 11 stacks in 3 GCDs between Justicar's Vengeance and artifact traits. 

[Guest Krazyposts]

Hey there, I'm an 887 ret that after having the rather lackluster legendary helm for months finally laid his hands on the legendary shoulders.

Now, right after getting them i went to SW to test on a dummy and i noticed that when i use Wake of Ashes it does not give me any sort of buff nor it debuffs the training dummy. Am I still getting the 15% dmg boost or is it bugged?