Demonology Warlock 7.3

[Guest Sandals]

I would feel a lot better if we could get a second opinion on the guide from someone who is actually playing their warlock *and* has great theorycraft/simulcraft knowledge. Right now we just have the latter- it looks like Furty's lock is still level 100 based on the armory.

[Valks 2,373]

On 9/27/2016 at 5:11 PM, Guest Sandals said:

I'll install whatever logging addon is needed before my raid tonight so maybe I can get more data, but especially with these buffs that should be going into effect (20% to HoG, 15% to implosion and 10% to doom is music to my ears), I am going to try to crack 200k DPS on a boss but we'll see how this works out!

Please do let me know how this goes. We're open to suggestions that properly showcase the information being presented, especially after a patch has just gone out. It really helps us.

Can't wait to see the logs etc.

[Valks 2,373]

15 hours ago, Guest Sandals said:

I would feel a lot better if we could get a second opinion on the guide from someone who is actually playing their warlock *and* has great theorycraft/simulcraft knowledge. Right now we just have the latter- it looks like Furty's lock is still level 100 based on the armory.

Hey there!

I'll pass this suggestion on. I can't promise anything because it's not my decision to make, but I'll make sure to see what we can do :)

Thanks!

[Guest Seems right?]

Yes, the guide feels off at many talent picks at all specs. I don't know if he is playing a warlock with another name or just account sharing for the Progression Race but it feels so uneasy getting warlock advice from someone that rerolled at the first opportunity.

[Valks 2,373]

3 hours ago, Guest Seems right? said:

Yes, the guide feels off at many talent picks at all specs. I don't know if he is playing a warlock with another name or just account sharing for the Progression Race but it feels so uneasy getting warlock advice from someone that rerolled at the first opportunity.

I can't add much more than what I have said above, but thank you for the feedback! I've passed it on, so it's now out of my hands, at least for now :D

[Guest Carle-Khadgar]

Question, I use hand of gul'dan but wait till doom is done. Do I just keep spamming Hand of Guldan to keep imps up or do I wait for doom to pop?

[Guest What is spooky]

What is spooky, and why is it none of the sites ever explain what some of the terminology is? There is an assumption that you just know what all this information is.

[positiv2 950]

46 minutes ago, Guest What is spooky said:

What is spooky, and why is it none of the sites ever explain what some of the terminology is? There is an assumption that you just know what all this information is.

We have glossary only for HS and HotS so far (though it's possible I missed something). For the other games you will sadly have to ask in the forums or google them. Spooky might be even a joke tbh. Could also be a reference to Thal'kiel's Consumption (section 3.2.) and stats later in the guide.

[DJRemark 0]

Can we get an update for this or nah?  A lot of the information in severely outdated.

[Guest Concerned Warlock]

1 hour ago, DJRemark said:

Can we get an update for this or nah?  A lot of the information in severely outdated.

This, please.

[Valks 2,373]

2 hours ago, DJRemark said:

Can we get an update for this or nah?  A lot of the information in severely outdated.

I've left Furty a note about the guide, but there isn't much else I can do currently. I'm sorry that it has taken so long, but hopefully we can get a full update done very shortly!

Thank you for your patience and, once again, sorry!

[Guest EsperothVIII]

On 10/8/2016 at 5:34 PM, Guest Carle-Khadgar said:

Question, I use hand of gul'dan but wait till doom is done. Do I just keep spamming Hand of Guldan to keep imps up or do I wait for doom to pop?

Never wait for doom to pop, just cast your Hand of Guldan.  Your Doom dot essentially stacks, it just doesn't show you the 2nd doom.  If you test it on a target dummy you will see that if you cast doom, then cast a Hand of Guldan you will still get 2 doom ticks.  It doesn't overwrite the first one.

[Valks 2,373]

13 hours ago, Guest EsperothVIII said:

Never wait for doom to pop, just cast your Hand of Guldan.  Your Doom dot essentially stacks, it just doesn't show you the 2nd doom.  If you test it on a target dummy you will see that if you cast doom, then cast a Hand of Guldan you will still get 2 doom ticks.  It doesn't overwrite the first one.

Thanks for picking that answer up. Didn't realise I had missed it!

[Realmouse 5]

On 10/11/2016 at 6:27 PM, Guest EsperothVIII said:

Never wait for doom to pop, just cast your Hand of Guldan.  Your Doom dot essentially stacks, it just doesn't show you the 2nd doom.  If you test it on a target dummy you will see that if you cast doom, then cast a Hand of Guldan you will still get 2 doom ticks.  It doesn't overwrite the first one.

this has never been true for me. if i cast hand  every time i have dread stalkers out and 4 soul shards, i never get doom damage except during high haste procs (like bloodlust) my warlock is Gerbiler on Azjol-Nerub . he has low item level and poor stats still.

[Guest Lucrecia-Ner'zhul]

On 10/14/2016 at 5:27 AM, Realmouse said:

this has never been true for me. if i cast hand  every time i have dread stalkers out and 4 soul shards, i never get doom damage except during high haste procs (like bloodlust) my warlock is Gerbiler on Azjol-Nerub . he has low item level and poor stats still.

This would need to be tested but I have a theory on this.  Druids' Lifebloom effect blooms now no matter what, they can no longer refresh it with spells.  Because of this it (in a way) behaves similar to Warlock Doom.  If a druid refreshes their Lifebloom by a hard cast of Lifebloom on the same target, as long as they do it with less than 5 seconds left on the Lifeboom hot, that first Lifebloom will still bloom!

What i'm thinking is, some warlocks don't have enough haste in early ilvls so by the time they get 4 shards again, there are times where the first Doom still has too much time remaining to still tick and it actually DOES get overwritten by the new Doom.  Maybe there is a magic number like the "Lifebloom 5 seconds remaining" that also applies for Doom  Again this is all just a theory but it's worth checking out since there are claims from some people that their Dooms are not stacking.

[Valks 2,373]

16 hours ago, Guest Lucrecia-Ner'zhul said:

Again this is all just a theory but it's worth checking out since there are claims from some people that their Dooms are not stacking.

Very interesting thought. Will get this looked into.

[Guest Dif]

i got 2 ticks on dummy no matter if i cast it twice in a row or wait to x sec remain till doom tick. looks like it will stack up to 2.
 if i cast it 3 times it feels like it overwrites the first one. same with hand of guldan. dont know if it works because of my haste or if it works anyway.

[Valks 2,373]

On 10/20/2016 at 0:03 AM, Guest Dif said:

i got 2 ticks on dummy no matter if i cast it twice in a row or wait to x sec remain till doom tick. looks like it will stack up to 2.
 if i cast it 3 times it feels like it overwrites the first one. same with hand of guldan. dont know if it works because of my haste or if it works anyway.

So you believe that the limiter is based on number of casts rather than time left on current doom?

[DJRemark 0]

Wow, THIS was the update?  Would icyveins consider a new writer for the Warlock class guides, or at least the Demonology spec?

Edited October 26, 2016 by DJRemark

[Guest JPax]

1.1. Spooky Stat Weights

1. Haste: 1.15
2. Intellect: 1.00
3. Critical Strike: 0.75
4. Mastery 0.72
5. Versatility: 0.66

 

This can't be right. Not at all.

 

Haste is a good stat for demonology. It improves how many wild imps we can have out at a time, and increases their attack speed. With a fully upgraded artifact, our wild imps get 56% haste with demonic empowerment which gives them 1-((2/1.56)/2)= 35.9% damage increase. With an additional 30% haste from our character they would have 1-((2/1.86)/2)= 46.2% damage increase in total, which means our 30% haste improved their damage by 10.3%. Now, haste also improves how many wild imps we can have out at once and how regularly, so that means that at 30% haste we'd have 30% more opportunities to get wild imps out (on static boss fights) at a 10.3% damage increase, which means our haste gives us a 30*1.103= 33.09% damage increase for our wild imps on their own, which averages out to be less than that effect because they aren't our only source of damage. Assuming they do 35% of our total dps the haste increase would show a 0.35*33.09 + 0.65*30 = 31.1% overall damage increase (rounded up slightly because I'm not sure how dreadstalkers factor in, yes, dodgy maths at the end). 31.1/30= 1.036.. = 1.037% damage increase per 1% of haste.

Critical strike. We already get a bucket load of crit inherently. Our Imps get 40% and our dreadstalkers and shadow/demon bolt gets 20% base critical chance. At 20% base critical, every 1% increase of critical chance will offer a 1/120 = 0.0083.. = 0.83..% increase in our dps AND LOWER. So I agree that critical strike is lower per point than haste. For our Wild Imps, each 1% increase of our critical chance will offer a  1/140= 0.007143 = 0.714% increase to their dps. This means crit offers 0.714% to 0.83..% damage increase per 1% of crit.

 

HOWEVER. Mastery. Mastery is a straight up damage buff to pet damage, which if you run a shadow bolt build you will see the majority of your damage come from. It suffers from diminishing returns just like critical chance, though at a lower starting rate. Starting off with 14.40% mastery, 1% extra mastery would offer 1/114.4=0.00874 = 0.87% increase in our demon's dps, and lower the more you have. The downside to mastery vs crit is that it only affects our demons, so other effects like damaging trinkets and enchantments on necklaces won't be affected by it. Given that maybe 15-18% of your dps will be taken up by trinkets and shadowbolt, this means it gives you 0.87*0.85 = 0.7395 = 0.74% damage increase per 1% of mastery.

 

Now lets look at stat weights.

Crit = 325 per 1%                     0.772% damage increase. (taking median value) 

Haste = 350 per 1%                 1.037% damage increase.

Mastery = 195 per 1%             0.74% damage increase.

Factoring in the stat weights along side stat contribution:

Crit = 0.772/325 = 0.00237538...

Haste = 1.037/350 = 0.00296285...

Mastery = 0.74/195 = 0.00379487...

 

Normalising the values, using mastery as the relevant number:

Mastery: Haste: Crit

1: 0.78: 0.63

 

Haste offers 78% of the damage boost that mastery does.

Critical chance offers 63%% of the damage boost that mastery does.

 

 

CAVEATS: The critical chance should be lower weighted because of Wild Imps vastly increased critical chance. Haste is subject to diminishing returns as well, but I didn't factor that in properly, so it's value should be higher weighted - but nowhere near close to meeting or exceeding mastery.

 

[Guest JPax]

On 14/10/2016 at 1:27 PM, Realmouse said:

this has never been true for me. if i cast hand  every time i have dread stalkers out and 4 soul shards, i never get doom damage except during high haste procs (like bloodlust) my warlock is Gerbiler on Azjol-Nerub . he has low item level and poor stats still.

Doom does not stack like the previous poster was implying. It DOES refresh it though. This isn't the same as over writing.

 

Basically, if you have a Doom that is half way to proccing, a fresh cast of doom will refresh the duration of doom back to as if you had just cast it (Because you have) but it will still tick on as if it was the original doom cast. This means that although it's duration will be back to 100%, it'll still be half of your doom timer until it procs. This does mean you will still only get one doom pay off per doom cast, but it does mean you can freely cast doom to refresh whenever you like and not lose soul shard economy.

[Guest JPax]

On 24/10/2016 at 5:45 PM, Blainie said:

So you believe that the limiter is based on number of casts rather than time left on current doom?

It is not. It just refreshes the dot. I don't know how the OP got to that conclusion, but for me if I keep refreshing doom I get 1 doom proc every set interval. When I say 'keep refreshing' I just spammed Doom at a target dummy for about a minute and got just under 4 procs - which is accurate for the interval the tooltip says.

[Guest JPax]

Incidentally, with the Hand of Gul'dan Doom application talent selected, it does apply a second doom. This second doom does not generate a soul shard, and does not have a dot timer, making it nearly impossible to see when it procs unless you can distinguish the two possible numbers it can be out of the myriad of others popping up, and thus reapply it. This leads me to believe it's a bug.

[Guest JPax]

6 hours ago, Guest JPax said:

Incidentally, with the Hand of Gul'dan Doom application talent selected, it does apply a second doom. This second doom does not generate a soul shard, and does not have a dot timer, making it nearly impossible to see when it procs unless you can distinguish the two possible numbers it can be out of the myriad of others popping up, and thus reapply it. This leads me to believe it's a bug.

What I mean is that the 'Hand of Gul'Dan' Doom is a different doom than the regular cast of doom when applying. It just doesn't show up on timers or generate a second soul shard, but does deal the damage twice. It refreshes the doom timer as intended, but still manages to generate two separate damage ticks - with only 1 shard rewarded. Which is incredibly odd.

[Furty 51]

8 hours ago, Guest JPax said:

1.1. Spooky Stat Weights

1. Haste: 1.15
2. Intellect: 1.00
3. Critical Strike: 0.75
4. Mastery 0.72
5. Versatility: 0.66

 

This can't be right. Not at all.

 

Haste is a good stat for demonology. It improves how many wild imps we can have out at a time, and increases their attack speed. With a fully upgraded artifact, our wild imps get 56% haste with demonic empowerment which gives them 1-((2/1.56)/2)= 35.9% damage increase. With an additional 30% haste from our character they would have 1-((2/1.86)/2)= 46.2% damage increase in total, which means our 30% haste improved their damage by 10.3%. Now, haste also improves how many wild imps we can have out at once and how regularly, so that means that at 30% haste we'd have 30% more opportunities to get wild imps out (on static boss fights) at a 10.3% damage increase, which means our haste gives us a 30*1.103= 33.09% damage increase for our wild imps on their own, which averages out to be less than that effect because they aren't our only source of damage. Assuming they do 35% of our total dps the haste increase would show a 0.35*33.09 + 0.65*30 = 31.1% overall damage increase (rounded up slightly because I'm not sure how dreadstalkers factor in, yes, dodgy maths at the end). 31.1/30= 1.036.. = 1.037% damage increase per 1% of haste.

Critical strike. We already get a bucket load of crit inherently. Our Imps get 40% and our dreadstalkers and shadow/demon bolt gets 20% base critical chance. At 20% base critical, every 1% increase of critical chance will offer a 1/120 = 0.0083.. = 0.83..% increase in our dps AND LOWER. So I agree that critical strike is lower per point than haste. For our Wild Imps, each 1% increase of our critical chance will offer a  1/140= 0.007143 = 0.714% increase to their dps. This means crit offers 0.714% to 0.83..% damage increase per 1% of crit.

 

HOWEVER. Mastery. Mastery is a straight up damage buff to pet damage, which if you run a shadow bolt build you will see the majority of your damage come from. It suffers from diminishing returns just like critical chance, though at a lower starting rate. Starting off with 14.40% mastery, 1% extra mastery would offer 1/114.4=0.00874 = 0.87% increase in our demon's dps, and lower the more you have. The downside to mastery vs crit is that it only affects our demons, so other effects like damaging trinkets and enchantments on necklaces won't be affected by it. Given that maybe 15-18% of your dps will be taken up by trinkets and shadowbolt, this means it gives you 0.87*0.85 = 0.7395 = 0.74% damage increase per 1% of mastery.

 

Now lets look at stat weights.

Crit = 325 per 1%                     0.772% damage increase. (taking median value) 

Haste = 350 per 1%                 1.037% damage increase.

Mastery = 195 per 1%             0.74% damage increase.

Factoring in the stat weights along side stat contribution:

Crit = 0.772/325 = 0.00237538...

Haste = 1.037/350 = 0.00296285...

Mastery = 0.74/195 = 0.00379487...

 

Normalising the values, using mastery as the relevant number:

Mastery: Haste: Crit

1: 0.78: 0.63

 

Haste offers 78% of the damage boost that mastery does.

Critical chance offers 63%% of the damage boost that mastery does.

 

 

CAVEATS: The critical chance should be lower weighted because of Wild Imps vastly increased critical chance. Haste is subject to diminishing returns as well, but I didn't factor that in properly, so it's value should be higher weighted - but nowhere near close to meeting or exceeding mastery.

 

I think you might want to check your calculations, or rather, how you do a calculation - you make many assumptions about absolute values of stats (for example, calculation the value of haste based off of ... imp damage?). Stat weights are (roughly) correct, and though they do fluctuate based on your current number of stats and the number of targets, the priority is the same as listed at all times (except Versatility is occasionally actually better than Mastery, depending on your ilvl).