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Firze

Arcane,Frost or Fire Specc

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Hiho dear IcyVeins Mage Friends

I hope that i found here some Help for my Mage.

Normally i make some Hero Scanarios,LFR and Raiding ToT 10 Man nhc and in short Time also hc.

First of all my Armory Link:

http://eu.battle.net.../Rubîx/advanced

I know that Wrist, Feet Enchant is missing, and the Socket of my Tail.

My Questions are:

Does Fire perform good with this Equipp? I`ve read in some Forums that you need to have 12k Crit to Play Fire.

When i change all the Gems and reforge to Crit i have ~10k Crit.

Is Arcane compatitive in ToT? Because you need to have good mobility in Different Fights (Dumuru)

Some play with Incanter's Ward and wit Frozen Armor. Some says first 8000 Haste then Mastery.

Has Frost a special Hastecap or can you Reforge / Gemming full in haste / int/haste?

So i hope you can help me to Choice the best Specc.

Best Regards

Firze

Sry for my bad English ( I gave my best)

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Is Arcane compatitive in ToT?

I don't know much about the other specs so I answer only to this. The short answer is no.

The long answer is:

There is too much movement in ToT. There are cases where Arcane is decent or even very good, but this basically requires the legendary gem, a 4 piece T15H set and a 25m team. Ra-den is an example. In a 10m team the other specs will do better.

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Hello Firze!

You are just at the right place for information! Posted Image

To answer your first question: On your item level fire will not perform as competitively as you might wish. I cannot tell you exact crit numbers, but theorically at about 520 item level, you should have enough crit points. However, if you enjoy playing fire, you can still do decent numbers but don't expect too much.

For the seconds question, I am unfortunately not too experienced with arcane mages. But our guides are constantly reviewed by Blatty who plays in Method. From our guide section:

  • 25 May 2013: Posted ImageMage Armor is once again the armor of choice for Arcane Mages. Posted ImageLiving Bomb is now the best option for single-target situations. Multiple-target rotation still needs to be updated, but another lockout of testing is needed.
As your Tier 6 talent the best option is still Rune of power. However, and unfortunately there are many fights in ToT that requires movement. In these fights you have two options:
  • Use Rune of Power optimizing your position to minimize the movement. Ie. If you know you will have to move, put down 2 Runes and just blink between them. This should work like a charm ie. on Magaera. (Additionally you can use Blazing speed for even more faster reposition)

  • Use Incanter's ward. Unfortunately with the recent changes to the ward (neeerf) its potential decreased signifficantly, but still a viable option on many normal mode bosses. However, on heroic mode sometimes you simply cannot allow yourself to stand in stuff in order to get the ward consumed, because obviously HC mode fires on the floor are deadlier than normal.
Additionally, please refer to our "Mage style" topic at: http://www.icy-veins...der-mage-style/ where we have some Arcane specific tips ie. for Durumu. Unfortunately not for every boss, becasue as I said I haven't got too much arcane experience :

As for your 3rd question with gemming:

There are 2 ways of gemming for frost mages:

  • Int gemming
2. Haste gemmingNow the thing is. If you can stand still and cast during the whole fight, the Int gemming is better. If you have to move even occasionall, Haste gemming will pull ahead. So I'd suggest you to use the Haste gemming since as you also said, there are many movement fights in ToT.

And no, there is no cap for Frost mage haste. The more haste the better always. Posted ImageThe only "cap" in connection with frost mage haste is, once you realize you are hitting the global cooldown with your Frostbolts when both Icy veins and Heroism is up, you should start using Glyph of Icy Veins to avoid wasted Frostbolt cast time.

As for spec choice. I can link you one topic for a debate between frost and fire: http://www.icy-veins...-frost-or-fire/

And you can find some Arcane specific tips an opinions from other users in this topic: http://www.icy-veins...7-dps-very-low/

And I will actually vote for Frost. I have found this spec very versatile. It is competing on single target fights with arcane. It is the best on 2 targets fights, when the 2 enemies are stacked up. It will fall behind fire on 3 or more enemies, but if you keep your mage bombs up, that shouldn't cause any problems.

This spec is awesome on stationary fights. Will fall behind arcane, a bit, but probably will stay ahead of Fire.

On fights with light movement, there is no problem at all with casting etc. Fights with heavy movement, casting will become a bit harder, but if you can afford to stay down for a a few Frostbolt casts, your are fine with so much haste. For me even evocation is 1,2 seconds channelling time sometimes... :D It is super easy to play as well, but might require a bit of practice for optimal gameplay.

If you have any other questions, feel free to ask! Even encounter specific question. Posted Image If you are not satisfied with your DPS on a fight, you can give us a world of logs link and we'll have a look at it to figure out what you are missing.

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Fire can do well at that gear level but it is a bit more complex than frost or arcane.

Arcane can be competitive (i'm not sure on the gear level required) but it's lack of mobility has turned me off of it completely. Fire has the best mobility by far of the specs but frost is fine for all the encounters. For instance: on Durumu - as long as you save Frozen Orb for the maze phase, you will be fine.

All the specs can be competitive, it will just depend on what you are comfortable with playing. Frost is probably the easiest, has the best dps at early gear levels and still scales well even at high end. There are no haste caps for frost, just stack haste!

In the end, play the style you like to play Posted Image

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Mmkay. After a quick run through on the logs, I realized that your Invoker's energy uptime on bosses that require movement is very bad. Ie. Durumu had 78% uptime. You HAVE TO keep it up close to 100%. (95% at least) 15% damage increase is much and is really not hard to keep it up.

The Nether Tempest uptime on single target bosses was cool, however 83% uptime on Council is bad. You really should keep Nether tempest up on all four adds. With the exception of the duration of heroism, when you should be nuking Sul.

Do you use any addons to track your DoTs and your buffs on you?

Are there any bosses that you would like to hear more about how to optimize your gameplay on them, or you want a more in depth combat log analysis on them?

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Good Morning

Thanks for the Answers

The Only Addon that i use is Weak Auras who tell me how long Invoker and Nether Tempest is running.

Did you know a better addon for this things?

Okay but from my Gameplay it looks good?

I think dmg on Horridon was okay, and i keep training the Priority list.

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I'd use ElvUI to get a super mega awesome looking UI :P

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^^

Okay i will have a Look on ELV UI Posted Image

But i have another short Question.

If i getting a Procc of Icelance or Frostfirebolt while i cast FB.

I ve tried a stopcasting makro but it didnt work.

Ist it better to finish my fb cast and then the proccs or stop casting fb and use the proccs.

And is it correct that FFB priority ist higher than Icelance?

Greetz

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I used to play frost and i'm playing fire now.

For single target you should be using Living Bomb now. The ticks of living bomb are around 2-3 seconds. so u cant get more than 1 FFB proc every 2-3 seconds (with LB). with nether tempest the procs can happen way faster 0.6-1 seconds, so procs can override.

When you cast FB and 1 FFB procs you have around 2-3 seconds before you can get a new proc (with LB). So i suggest you finish the cast and trow an incast FFB right after the FB-cast. because stopping a cast is wasting a GCD and DPS loss

For FoF i do the same, When u cast FB and you get a FoF. Finish the cast and throw a FoF-icelance right after the cast.

when you get FoF and FFB. use FFB first and than FoF-ice lance.

My opinion is FFB > FoF. exept when you are AOE'ing with frozen orb on multi-target (with ice-lance glyph ofcourse) And always use you procs right away, except when you are about to move, so yo have incast spell when moving.

About Spec, Frost is the best DPS spec for low ilvls. when you hit around ~520, have t15 4-set and around 12k crit you can do around the same dps as fire. I have no experience with Arcane, sorry about that

hopes this can help you a bit.

greetings Bevriezer

Edited by Bevriezer

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Good Morning

Thanks for the Answers

The Only Addon that i use is Weak Auras who tell me how long Invoker and Nether Tempest is running.

Did you know a better addon for this things?

Okay but from my Gameplay it looks good?

I think dmg on Horridon was okay, and i keep training the Priority list.

Weakauras is awesome for Invoker and you can also configure it to keep a track on your trinket etc. procs. To see when it is ideal to use Alter Time. For Nether Tempest I personally use ForteXorcist, because of keeps tracking on the dots even if I don't target the enemies.

Your gameplay itself is good, but you HAVE TO work on your multi-dotting to keep up NT on all enemies, and your Invoker's energy uptime on movement bosses like Durumu. Just try to move as less as possible.

^^

Okay i will have a Look on ELV UI Posted Image

But i have another short Question.

If i getting a Procc of Icelance or Frostfirebolt while i cast FB.

I ve tried a stopcasting makro but it didnt work.

Ist it better to finish my fb cast and then the proccs or stop casting fb and use the proccs.

And is it correct that FFB priority ist higher than Icelance?

Greetz

Long story short, finish the cast.

If you have 1 FFB proc, and 1 FoF proc, then FFB has higher priority.

If you have 1 FFB proc, and 2 FoF procs, then FFoF has higher priority, because the FFB has also a chance to trigger one FFoF so that would be a waste if you used it. So basically you use a rotation of Ice lance, FFB, Ice lance.

The onl exception is what Bevriezer said, when you ahve frozen orb up and you have to spam Ice lance :)

I used to play frost and i'm playing fire now.

For single target you should be using Living Bomb now. The ticks of living bomb are around 2-3 seconds. so u cant get more than 1 FFB proc every 2-3 seconds (with LB). with nether tempest the procs can happen way faster 0.6-1 seconds, so procs can override.

When you cast FB and 1 FFB procs you have around 2-3 seconds before you can get a new proc (with LB). So i suggest you finish the cast and trow an incast FFB right after the FB-cast. because stopping a cast is wasting a GCD and DPS loss

For FoF i do the same, When u cast FB and you get a FoF. Finish the cast and throw a FoF-icelance right after the cast.

when you get FoF and FFB. use FFB first and than FoF-ice lance.

My opinion is FFB > FoF. exept when you are AOE'ing with frozen orb on multi-target (with ice-lance glyph ofcourse) And always use you procs right away, except when you are about to move, so yo have incast spell when moving.

About Spec, Frost is the best DPS spec for low ilvls. when you hit around ~520, have t15 4-set and around 12k crit you can do around the same dps as fire. I have no experience with Arcane, sorry about that

hopes this can help you a bit.

greetings Bevriezer

Living bomb is only viable on single target fights, and 2-3 targets if they are not stacked up. However, on Stacked up 2-3 and 4-5 targets (doesn't matter if stacked or not) Nether tempest will always pull ahead.

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If you are willing to commit your best effort, you can play any spec right now with the gear you have. I constantly monitor the dps numbers of mages i see in raids, and it is fairly evenly split with frost and fire pulling big numbers, and arcane having a fair number of users. I enjoy frost myself, so it is easy for me right now, but fire can pull some really good numbers. The interesting thing I see on Recount, the biggest numbers are coming from Combustion, and.....I don't remember right now, but it isn't Fireball or Pyroblast, so I will need to pay closer attention and ask what rotations they are using.

So test what you like, and keep us updated on what you are doing. Oh, and your English is fine!

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I constantly monitor the dps numbers of mages i see in raids, and it is fairly evenly split with frost and fire pulling big numbers, and arcane having a fair number of users.

So you are raiding mostly in LFR? Because that is the only way you can say "Arcane having a fair number of users". I took some statistics from Raidbots a couple of days ago and Arcane is heavily underpresented especially in 10m raid teams where the OP plays.

10N (samples 89,840)

Fire ..... 47.9% ..... (43,014)

Frost .... 45.9% ..... (41,273)

Arcane .... 6.2% ...... (5,553)

10H (samples 17,047)

Fire ..... 73.5% ..... (12,537)

Frost .... 21.2% ...... (3,611)

Arcane .... 5.3% ........ (899)

25N (samples 47,643)

Fire ..... 57.9% ..... (27,609)

Frost .... 33.4% ..... (15,915)

Arcane .... 8.6% ...... (4,119)

25H (samples 23,844)

Fire ..... 79.9% ..... (19,047)

Frost .... 10.2% ...... (2,439)

Arcane .... 9.9% ...... (2,358)

25LFR (samples 40,580)

Frost .... 53.9% ..... (21,877)

Fire ..... 27.3% ..... (11,083)

Arcane ... 18.8% ...... (7,620)

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What do you guys think is the reason for the higher difference between frost and fire mages on normal and HC modes?

Would it be, that many mages started to experience with frost just recently, and these are the players who play in Normals yet?

Or do you think that there are more fire mages because players think frost is less viable in HC progression?

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What do you guys think is the reason for the higher difference between frost and fire mages on normal and HC modes?

Would it be, that many mages started to experience with frost just recently, and these are the players who play in Normals yet?

Or do you think that there are more fire mages because players think frost is less viable in HC progression?

i think, once you start on HC-progressing. Gear is around 515-525 And than fire DPS is beginning to be nicely compared to frost. At low ilvls frost does alot more damage than fire, so for LFR and normal-progressing frost would be best choice.

Also TOT requires alot of movement, so once you can do fire, fire seems better because you can DPS good while moving.

For me, i was playing frost since normal progress in TOT, when i could go fire (12k crit, 522 and 28 crit unbuffed) i became fire, because i was a bit bored of frost and wanted to try a new spec and it seemed more fun for me.

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i think, once you start on HC-progressing. Gear is around 515-525 And than fire DPS is beginning to be nicely compared to frost. At low ilvls frost does alot more damage than fire, so for LFR and normal-progressing frost would be best choice.

Also TOT requires alot of movement, so once you can do fire, fire seems better because you can DPS good while moving.

For me, i was playing frost since normal progress in TOT, when i could go fire (12k crit, 522 and 28 crit unbuffed) i became fire, because i was a bit bored of frost and wanted to try a new spec and it seemed more fun for me.

And how do you perform as fire now in raid environments? Theoretically, fire would be a 10k DPS loss for me in single target fights, but I haven't experienced much with it in raids. :)

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And how do you perform as fire now in raid environments? Theoretically, fire would be a 10k DPS loss for me in single target fights, but I haven't experienced much with it in raids. Posted Image

I did experienced a DPS loss yes. Fire is RNG and sometimes my DPS is awesome and sometimes it sucks. Overall single target the DPS-loss is around 10-15k, but changing fire did made it more fun for me and thats also very important. i still pull around 135k single target, were i did 150k as frost.

As for AOE fights i don't seem to have DPS loss, instead i see DPS increase. Getting a sweet combustion DOT up and spreading them can make a huge difference in for instance Horridon HC (on 2x balcony adds), although we haven't downed him yet. i aslo Had a 800k burst on council normal yesterday Posted Image

Edited by Bevriezer

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I did experienced a DPS loss yes. Fire is RNG and sometimes my DPS is awesome and sometimes it sucks. Overall single target the DPS-loss is around 10-15k, but changing fire did made it more fun for me and thats also very important. i still pull around 135k single target, were i did 150k as frost.

As for AOE fights i don't seem to have DPS loss, instead i see DPS increase. Getting a sweet combustion DOT up and spreading them can make a huge difference in for instance Horridon HC (on 2x balcony adds), although we haven't downed him yet. i aslo Had a 800k burst on council normal yesterday Posted Image

That is sweet. The truth is, I am strongly thinking about switching to fire. But I DO enjoy both frost and fire as well. Well, I guess I should give it a few tries.. :)

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That is sweet. The truth is, I am strongly thinking about switching to fire. But I DO enjoy both frost and fire as well. Well, I guess I should give it a few tries.. Posted Image

Both specs are great :). Fire shines on multi-target and movement fights. Frost shines on single-target fights. just do what you feel :)

Frost seems more reliable since fire has RNG. but i love to throw some big pyroblasts at my enemies

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I wish I had the chance like in cata to just switch between talents with the same gear... I guess it's time to farm for the reforge mount. :D

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I've been regularly keeping up with multiple Mage communities and figured it was time I actually started chiming in on Icy Veins. Personally I've been playing a Mage since the original closed beta of Vanilla WoW when Blizzard recruited our guild from Everquest to help in the beta. Since then I've always played whatever the top rated spec was for high end raiding. Currently when it comes to the Frost vs Fire debate it really boils down to two things, gear and personal play style.

Concerning the gear, it's really not just a matter of item level but also of stat itemization. Around a "520" is good because you'll know you'll have your base int covered but that won't matter with fire unless a large portion of your gear has a large amount of crit on it. At about 35% crit is when you'll see Fire really start to pull away from Frost even on single target. This was when I made my change from Frost to Fire and definitely noticed an increase in my damage. Yes, Fire is at the mercy of the RNG gods but as you keep getting more gear at this point Fire will continue to pull away from Frost as it scales a little better with gear then the other. (Sims and World of Logs will show this)

All the gear in the world doesn't make up for the player though. If someone is a stronger player as Frost and only mediocre as Fire, then you'll just flat out perform better as Frost so stay that spec. When it comes down to it both specs are competitive, switching to Fire after you have the gear for it is really just for the min/maxers.

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For those who don't already know, an easy method to see if you're ready to switch from Frost to Fire is to just load your character into Mr. Robot. Simply just change your spec on there to Fire and click "Optimize". It will change everything to your ideal fire gem/reforge and let you know where you sit with a potential crit level without wasting the money in game.

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I've been regularly keeping up with multiple Mage communities and figured it was time I actually started chiming in on Icy Veins. Personally I've been playing a Mage since the original closed beta of Vanilla WoW when Blizzard recruited our guild from Everquest to help in the beta. Since then I've always played whatever the top rated spec was for high end raiding. Currently when it comes to the Frost vs Fire debate it really boils down to two things, gear and personal play style.

Concerning the gear, it's really not just a matter of item level but also of stat itemization. Around a "520" is good because you'll know you'll have your base int covered but that won't matter with fire unless a large portion of your gear has a large amount of crit on it. At about 35% crit is when you'll see Fire really start to pull away from Frost even on single target. This was when I made my change from Frost to Fire and definitely noticed an increase in my damage. Yes, Fire is at the mercy of the RNG gods but as you keep getting more gear at this point Fire will continue to pull away from Frost as it scales a little better with gear then the other. (Sims and World of Logs will show this)

All the gear in the world doesn't make up for the player though. If someone is a stronger player as Frost and only mediocre as Fire, then you'll just flat out perform better as Frost so stay that spec. When it comes down to it both specs are competitive, switching to Fire after you have the gear for it is really just for the min/maxers.

I love your point of view :)

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I wish I found this place a little sooner. Although I haven't played my mage in a while due to time constraints and not knowing people on my server to find a good guild, I really could have used reassurance like this when I was playing my mage much more often. I've always played fire because it fit my personality, and even though it's more complicated than frost or arcane, I was always COMFORTABLE with it: "I was fire when fire wasn't cool." For all the good that did in 4.2 when I was doing a Zul'Aman run with my guild, we had to pug the healer. We've pulverized the whole place, we're just about to pull the last boss, and the healer just up and goes "hey mage yu no arcane, u no arcane u retarded" (he didn't type a period.) Well... a VICIOUS fight ensued, by the time I was done telling him off, the final boss was down to 10% health without my having cast a single spell or registered at all on the threat meter. I put him on report spam ten times, and I desperately wanted to tell him that to his face. I bit my lip hard enough to cut it, because I knew he'd quit the group on the spot thereby forcing the rest of us to wipe.

My raiding days are over now, as are my days or random heroics. Icy Veins would have been a great place to go to back then, not only for help improving myself, but to interact with people willing to help me rather than only expecting me to get them their valor points as quickly as possible.

Edited by HollyC
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