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Toovowelly

Frost Mage: Trinket pick - Yu'longevity?

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My first post in this forum, so please excuse any lack of etiquette ...

I am currently equipping Volatile Talisman of the Shado-Pan Assault and Breath of the Hydra in my trinket slots.

However, I was previously using Relic of Yu'lon and I have noted that at least one experienced frost mage on my server is still equipping this.

I'm a simple soul and usually go by item level (not focusing on the maths) but in this case should I double upgrade Relic of Yu'lon and re-instate it in place of Breath of the Hydra?

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Hee toovowelly

Volatile talisman provides

1467 intellect and 8800haste for 10 seconds

the trinket has a 18.1% uptime 8800 x 0.181 = 1593 haste passive

Relic of yu'lon has

956 intellect and 3027 for 15 seconds

the trinket has a 28.3% uptime 3027 x 0.283 = 857 intellect passive

Breath of the hydra has

1218 haste and 6088 intellect for 20 seconds

the trinket has a 17.5% uptime 6088 x 0.175 = 1065 intellect passive

so basically in general

1467 int + 1593 haste

956 int + 857 intellect

1065 intellect + 1218 haste

stats weights are

4.41 for int and 1.93 for hast (according to askmrrobot)

(1467 x 4.41) + (1593 x 1.93) = 9529.3 (talisman)

(956 x 4.41) + (857 x 4.41) = 7995.3 (yu'lon)

(1065 x 4.41) + (1218 x 1.93) = 7047.4 (Hydra)

So you could say i means of stats weights that the yu'lon is better than the LFR version of the breath.

breath of the Hydra only procs from DOTs. As frost mage you can have 2. Nether Tempest or Living Bomb.

If you are using Frost Bomb talent, take yu'lon trinket

If you are using Living Bomb talent, take yu'lon trinket

If you are using Nether Tempest talent, take Hydra trinket (not 100% sure but i think so)

spell_nature_chainlightning.jpgWushoolay's Final Choice and spell_holy_mindsooth.jpgCha-Ye's Essence of Brilliance are the best BiS trinkets atm, try to get your hands on these Posted Image.

hopes this helps you a bit.

Edited by Bevriezer

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God, even with haste value of 0.58 (normalized vs 1 for int) yu'lon is still better. i have it upgraded to 530, so mine is prob >yu'lon, but mindlessy equipping that was stupid of me.

AMR told me to equip that Posted Image

Nice find anyways

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SIMCRAFT TIMEEE!

On my character (http://eu.battle.net...Oltier/advanced),

Non-upgraded Relic of Yu'lon yielded: 175684 DPS on single target figths, with Living bomb which is the default choice for single target.

1 upgrade: 176060 DPS

2 upgrades: 176581 DPS

Non-upgraded Breath of the Hydra LFR version yielded: 180427 DPS

1 upgrade: 180949 DPS

2 upgrade: 181730 DPS

Note that you HAVE to use either NT of LB Posted Image

On council fight with 4 targets and nether tempest:

Breath of the hydra LFR,

non upgraded: 299969

1 upgrade: 300818

2 upgrades: 302222

Relic of Yu'lon:

non-upgraded: 292171

1 upgrade: 293028

2 upgrades: 293863

The only benefit of Relic of Yu'lon if u're using Frost bomb for some reason.. which you shouldn't on bosses to be frank. :)

The experienced mage that you mention has probably no luck with better trinket, just like me.

But indeed try to get the trinkets what Bevriezer mentioned.

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I am not sure what you mean by input values being invalid. ^^

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This:

Volatile talisman provides

1467 intellect and 8800haste for 10 seconds

the trinket has a 18.1% uptime 8800 x 0.181 = 1593 haste passive

Relic of yu'lon has

956 intellect and 3027 for 15 seconds

the trinket has a 28.3% uptime 3027 x 0.283 = 857 intellect passive

Breath of the hydra has

1218 haste and 6088 intellect for 20 seconds

the trinket has a 17.5% uptime 6088 x 0.175 = 1065 intellect passive

so basically in general

1467 int + 1593 haste

956 int + 857 intellect

1065 intellect + 1218 haste

Not quite sure where these numbers came from, http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/trinkets/magefrost estimation is very different. Very Posted Image

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Ahh well, you guys can trust in my simcrafts that's for sure :)

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This:

Not quite sure where these numbers came from, http://www.askmrrobo...nkets/magefrost estimation is very different. Very Posted Image

Ye the up-times came from comment who people made about the trinkets and the up-times they experienced, But Oltiers Simcraft is way more reliable than mine calculations. So it seems that the Hydra is better than the yu'lon as it should 476ilvl against 502ilvl. Just dont use it in combination with Frost Bomb.

Sorry about my miscalculated information, i thought it was right.

greetz

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If you want to keep your DPS at the max.

For single target

take ability_mage_livingbomb.jpgLiving Bomb together with spell_shadow_mindflay.jpgBreath of the Hydra

for 2 - 5 targets

take spell_mage_nethertempest.jpgNether Tempest together with spell_shadow_mindflay.jpgBreath of the Hydra and dot every target with NT

for 5+ targets (this rarely happens, 4rd boss in HOF would work, but all other raid bosses, it should be LB or NT)

take spell_mage_frostbomb.jpgFrost Bomb together with inv_inscription_trinket_dragon.jpgRelic of Yu'lon

that should be the final conclusion for this thread

greetings

Edited by Bevriezer
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spell_nature_chainlightning.jpgWushoolay's Final Choice and spell_holy_mindsooth.jpgCha-Ye's Essence of Brilliance are the best BiS trinkets atm, try to get your hands on these .

The BiS trinkets you listed were 522 versions. Its unlikely I will see these in the near future but should I land the raid finder versions (plausible) I will be faced with a 2 from 4 pick essentially:

Volatile Talisman of the Shado-Pan Assault (522)

Breath of the Hydra (502)

Wushoolay's Final Choice (502)

Cha-Ye's Essence of Brilliance (502)

I started to try to do the maths on this (as demonstrated earlier in thread) but I ran aground on Wush which seems to stack intellect over time.

My instinct is that Wushoolay's Final Choice (502) should get the nod (along with the Talisman) and I should simply reforge to get back down to 15% hit cap (as +1218 hit) will push me way over.

This would seem to be backed up by the trinket dps list at

http://www.icy-veins...ot-best-in-slot

Is my instinct correct?

Edited by Toovowelly

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Time for our SImcraft Guru Oltier to calculate which 2 trinkets performs best for you! ;)

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Time for our SImcraft Guru Oltier to calculate which 2 trinkets performs best for you! Posted Image

Yea... When I officially wake up from my dreams.. Posted Image btw you are 0,2% under hit cap Toovowelly :3

EDIT: If you excuse me I will only run normal patchwerk fights with all non-upgraded trinkets.

This is already 6 simcrafts... :D

A=Volatile Talisman

B=Breath of the Hydra

C=Wushoolay's

D=Cha-Ye's

AB: 145166

AC: 144336

AD: 143948

BC: 133593

BD: 133493

CD: 132620

So the best choice for you is, Volatile Talisman with Breath of the Hydra, which is pretty surprising to me actually. I would have voted for Volatile with Cha-Ye's :3 I'll have to do some tests with my char as well :)

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Guys, you overdo it.

Go to AMR, load your toon, click on trinket.

You'll get a full ranking for all trinkets with a score.

Easy-peasy.

P.S. numbers you'll get will also depend on your talents, so be sure to pick LB or NT beforehand, otherwise BotH will be downrated (no dot and no proc)

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Guys, you overdo it.

Go to AMR, load your toon, click on trinket.

You'll get a full ranking for all trinkets with a score.

Easy-peasy.

P.S. numbers you'll get will also depend on your talents, so be sure to pick LB or NT beforehand, otherwise BotH will be downrated (no dot and no proc)

If helping a player with personal simcraft is overdoing, then please excuse me.

PS.: Thank you, after playing mage for many years, doing at least 500 simcraft I'm pretty sure I know what talents I choose and how to implement it into the command lines.

Additionally, AMR just proved to be wrong at this very moment on my own character as well.

On single target fights, Breath of the hydra pulled ahead, with Wooshu, and Chaye (which AMR scored the highest) fell behind.

On multi-dotting, Breath of the hydra was on the 1st place by 4k, while the other 2 had the same numbers.

So yes, Toovowelly, you should go for Volatile talisman and Breath of the hydra :) Making sure that u choose NT or LB for the fights, which should be your default choice anyways for ToT.

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Meh, dont get me wrong. My post scriptum was not about SimC, it was about AMR: Mr. Robot is not going to realistically value dot-proc trinket unless you have a dot. That is a reasonable piece of information.

As to what probably offended you (sorry, I had no intention to do so):

When you compare DMF with LFR trinket, advanced math seems unnessesary to me. Imo, a player can be safe to sacrifice some precision for speed and ease (meaning skipping SimC in favor of AMR approximation. And you know, I love SimC Posted Image)

Also, thank you for data regarding BiS trinkets. I'll run some trinket tests as well today.

All in all, I am sorry about the way I phrased it, probably coud have expressed the same idea in different words. I just tried to enlighten the possibilty of insta-checking trink rankings on AMR website.

Edited by areanu
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Don't worry, I was also in pretty bad mood. ^^

I have already done those SimCs ;D Breath of the hydra (522) and Woshuu (522) are the must need from normal and HC trinkets :)

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That's the combination i currently have (both 530), always wanted to replace hydra with cha-ye. Should reconsider it.

Although Cha-Ye gives crit, right? Think i'll be practicing fire once over 40% crit (currently i'm able to get 37%, but i'm mediocre frost and terribad fire, so staying frost for now)

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This simulations were only with frost. :) I cannot tell anything about fire. But Icy-veins's BiS list were right in case of frost trinkets, so it should be fine with fire as well.

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Indeed. I'd sooner get legendary cloak than defeat Ra-den for 541 cloak though Posted Image

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Due to constant crit being on Frost's BiS gear, Cha-Ye's is useless as you will constantly be over the Shatter cap (28% crit). With all of our intellect procs (BoH, Wushoolay and Jade Spirit) we are dropping our crit as low as possible (Mastery actually begins to be better than Crit at 23% crit). We dump everything into haste (12,684 is the magic number and 18th NT tick) and mastery after that. I'm pushing my haste further, as well are others, to maximize NT ticks with meta / lust / Icy Veins unglyphed. So, that information I just said rules out Cha-Ye's.

Now, your BiS trinkets are BoH and Wushoolay. Use the procs to Shatter cap you. Being you're playing frost, you can actually use NT on single target (and any # of targets) over LB because of the multiple haste breakpoints scaling better with NT than with LB. Again, this ONLY applies to Frost

SimC is utterly useless as well as AMR, even when used together. It's not quite fine-tuned with NT breakpoints.

If you really want a good read on how to maximize Frost (many of us experienced frost mages are beating experienced Fire mages) visit http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1302459-Frost-Haste-Caps-amp-You-Quick-Guide

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Due to constant crit being on Frost's BiS gear, Cha-Ye's is useless as you will constantly be over the Shatter cap (28% crit). With all of our intellect procs (BoH, Wushoolay and Jade Spirit) we are dropping our crit as low as possible (Mastery actually begins to be better than Crit at 23% crit). We dump everything into haste (12,684 is the magic number and 18th NT tick) and mastery after that. I'm pushing my haste further, as well are others, to maximize NT ticks with meta / lust / Icy Veins unglyphed. So, that information I just said rules out Cha-Ye's.

Now, your BiS trinkets are BoH and Wushoolay. Use the procs to Shatter cap you. Being you're playing frost, you can actually use NT on single target (and any # of targets) over LB because of the multiple haste breakpoints scaling better with NT than with LB. Again, this ONLY applies to Frost

SimC is utterly useless as well as AMR, even when used together. It's not quite fine-tuned with NT breakpoints.

If you really want a good read on how to maximize Frost (many of us experienced frost mages are beating experienced Fire mages) visit http://www.mmo-champ...You-Quick-Guide

Thanks for the suggestion, I will read through the topic. Posted Image

EDIT: I completely agree with you in connection with the trinket and mastery.

Another thing is, I firmly believe that unglyphing icy veins is not a good idea. Just because of 3- 4 extra ticks from NT, it is completely not worth wasting Frostbolt casts... However, on Multi-dotting fights (where NT is your main damaging ability) this is most likely worth it.

In connection with the single target bomb choice I'd like to quote from this topic you have linked, which is exactly my experience as well.

So after trying it for about 90 minutes, I kinda gave up on it for a few reasons. First of all, having that much haste is clunky as hell. Like I said beforehand, I'm not sure it's really worth the benefit. Secondly, the FFB procs seemed to hate me. I wouldn't get procs for a couple seconds then it seems like some got wasted because it proc'd a couple ticks in a row.

Overall, I think the benefits and the negatives almost equal out to make it just as good as just going regular LB and IV glyphed. I can't really analyze the numbers right now as I'm still mid raid but just from testing it I'd say do it if you like it, don't if you don't. Personally, it's not my cup of tea so I'll stick with LB and the glyph. Shouldn't produce a significant dps increase or decrease either way.

Here's logs if anyones interested though: http://worldoflogs.c....85q/dashboard/

Anyways, I will try out the suggestions in game as well.

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Thanks for the suggestion, I will read through the topic. Posted Image

EDIT: I completely agree with you in connection with the trinket and mastery.

Another thing is, I firmly believe that unglyphing icy veins is not a good idea. Just because of 3- 4 extra ticks from NT, it is completely not worth wasting Frostbolt casts... However, on Multi-dotting fights (where NT is your main damaging ability) this is most likely worth it.

In connection with the single target bomb choice I'd like to quote from this topic you have linked, which is exactly my experience as well.

Anyways, I will try out the suggestions in game as well.

You will only use IV unglyphed if you do not lust on the pull. Seeing as you gain 4 ticks of NT to 1 of LB, there isn't much else to discuss. Everyone really does sell the power of NT short. Along with the addition of NT ticks you NEED to understand how to snapshot your NT with your various procs.

Scenario: you have invocation buff, jade spirit and 5 stacks of Wushoolay on a freshly cast NT. You then immediately proc your meta. Let your Wushoolay build to 10, refresh your NT, even if its mid duration. You will gain more ticks and take advantage of your higher stacked Wushoolay.

A fire mage can play horribly and still compete. A frost mage can play horribly and be under the tank. Watching procs is a necessity and only those willing to understand how to snapshot will come out on top.

IV unglyphed is only clunky if you have a clunky gaming setup tbh. I actually find the glyphed IV to be far more clunky. You are in now way wasting frostbolt casts when using it for the 20% casting speed. You're using it to GET more frostbolts, as well as more NT Tticks.

Here's a breakdown of why the unglyphed version is better on some fights: frostbolts proc IL, NT procs BF, FFB procs more IL. More frostbolts from haste = more IL. More ticks from NT = more BF. More FFB = more IL. Sure, there is some rewrite on BF procs, but its negligible compared to the increase you're getting from a heavy haste NT.

Akraen said it best himself: "theorycrafting is dead". All of this new talk of NT and IV is exactly that: new. BUT, the results we're getting are very positive. It's not something you can just change one raid night and be comfortable with. And the quote you gave is the most inaccurate thing you could pick out of there: he played with it for 90 minutes and was it comfortable with high haste yet. Not a valid argument on your side I'm afraid. It. Will take. Time. There is no denying the increase you'll get from NT stacking. We just had a 2 day convo with AMR about it.

This play style isn't for everybody, but it WILL yield results in a positive favor.

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Could you post some logs and an armory link mastamage? I'm interested in the results you are getting. Pushing different playstyles is always a good thing!

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