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Lockybalboa

Artifact Weapon and You - How To Be Prepared

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What Are the Artifact Weapons?

Basically really badass weapons that you will keep for the whole of Legion. These weapons start with a base ilvl of 750 and can be upgraded as you level/gear. Each spec of each class gets a different weapon, for Demon Hunters we get the Twinblades of the Deceiver for Havoc and the Aldrachi Warblades for Vengeance.

What Do They Do?

Each artifact weapon gets a baseline skill, Soul CarverSoul Carver for Veng and Fury of the IllidariFury of the Illidari for Havoc. Both are very good skills and depending on the situation become part of your rotation. Past these baseline skills they are also upgradable, not only in terms of ilvl but also in passive and active skills they grant (99% of them are passive, rarely is there an active - none of the DH traits are active other than the first) These passives are called traits and work a lot like old school talent trees (think WotLK and earlier).

 

How Do I Upgrade it?

There are two ways to upgrade:

The first comes in Relics that add raw ilvl to the weapon and normally a minor passive gain of something, health, extra fire damage, damage dealt by X skill, etc. There is a total of three slots you will unlock in the weapon (you don't get all three to start) and each relic is locked to a type of relic (thus when a relic drops in a raid it isn't literally all 20-30 people rolling on it). Havoc uses two Fel Relics and one Shadow Relic. Vengeance uses one each of Fel, Iron, and Arcane Relics. Relics come from a number of sources, boss drops in dungeons and raids, quests, crafted, and world drops both boss and normal. They come in uncommon, rare, and epic quality.

The second method of upgrading is your traits, these are the old school talent trees...sort of.

This part gets kind of complicated but this is the simple version of it; you need Artifact Power to buy the traits on the weapon - you gain AP by doing quests, dungeons, raids, dailies, PvP, and more. Each trait gained cost more than the one before it, so the first rank is 100AP, the second is 300AP, 325, 350, etc. This number goes up very fast...here is a graph:

vDd0YLF.png

As you can see, the first 15 or so traits don't cost to much, but after that the AP cost per trait goes up FAST. Now, this is not as bad as it looks since the amount of AP you gain goes up as you level and unlock parts of the game, such as dailies, Class Hall, etc. Still it is worth noting that once you get to a point traits will come much slower than before.

 

Wow, Okay. What Do I Do With This Information?

It is HIGHLY recommended that you PLAN OUT what traits you are going to buy before you buy them...although you CAN reset your traits - it costs you one AP level. Resetting at <10 won't put you to far back, but the more you have the worse it gets. It is far better to not reset at all ever and just get it right the first time.

Before raids release you will have about 20-23 traits, the recommended paths for each spec are in the images below - image credit goes to Munkky of the Demon Hunter Discord for the Vengeance pic and Pawkets of the DH Discord for Havoc. 

 

For Havoc:

PyVzB5B.png

 

For Vengance:

d6X9mf2.jpg

 

 

Awesome! I Want It All!

Well...you can get them all...but it takes a REALLY long time. We're talking something around 35 weeks in order to totally max out your weapon...so don't consider this a really pressing goal since it is unlikely that the first tier will LAST 35 weeks.

 

What If I Want To Duel Spec?

It is actually not as bad as you might think - AP is not locked to a weapon, so if you farm 3,000AP as Havoc you can turn around and spend that on your Vengeance weapon if you want and vice versa. But, since you're drawing from the one pool of AP you need to keep in mind that every AP you put on one weapon will take away AP from the other. I.E., you can spend 1 mil AP on one weapon or 250,000AP on one and 750,000 on the other.

The best way of describing this is with another picture, this one done by AskMrRobot based on math done by Kib

ZUUThTR.png

 

Based on this we can see that although your off-spec weapon will always be less powerful, there is a way that you can have your cake and...eat most of it too. Also note that this math does not take into consideration any RNG - there are drops that you can find that give you AP on top of what you get by doing dailies, raids, etc. This chart assumes you get one drop per mythic dungeons per week, when the statistical likely hood is actually a bit higher than just 1:1, but RNG is random so...ya.

 

Okay, Thanks For The Info...Nerd. But...The Weapons Look So...Basic...

You can unlock transmog for them! Well, you can transmog them right off the bat also to swords, 1h axes, and 1h maces. But you can also unlock wicked transmog for the weapon itself also. These can be unlocked a number of ways, achievements, quests, PvP, "hidden", and class halls.

If you want to look into this some more, check out these WoWHead links for Havoc and Vengeance, bottom of the calculator there is an Appearances tab.

 

What About...The Bonus Trait...

This trait is only unlocked after you have unlocked all 34 other traits, the bonus trait is a way of dumping the AP you gain after you've unlocked everything else and gives you a flat x% of health, damage, or healing done depending on your weapon. Havoc gets bonus damage, Vengeance gets bonus total health.

The bonus trait has 20 levels and costs a metic buttload of AP per level. End of the day getting all 20 levels will 1) take a loooong time but will 2) give 15% bonus damage or total health after all 20 traits are spent.

Basically, don't worry about these to much. It will be about 30 weeks before you even see them and that is assuming you max out your AP the whole way there. 

 

Awesome! But um...How Do I Get My Weapon?

Log in after Legion launches, you'll get a quest, do it. You get to pick EITHER your Havoc or Vengeance weapon to start with and then at level 102 you will unlock a quest for the other weapon. DO THE QUEST WHEN YOU GET IT! It gives good exp...that is the only reason.

 

Can I Use My Havoc Weapon In Vengeance Spec (Or The Other Way)?

No. As soon as you respec the weapon is unequipped and you cannot re-equip. You can use other weapons but since there literally isn't any in Legion...you're using whatever you got in WoD until you do your artifact quest.

Leveling as Vengeance is not hard at all, so if you want to be able to que 5 mans while you do quests, I say get your Vengeance weapon first and Havoc at 102. Even though I'm going to main Havoc, I'm getting my Vengeance weapon first.  

 

Thanks, Locky! You Da Man!

I know.

Feel free to ask questions or point out errors in the comments.

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3 hours ago, Lockybalboa said:

[url=https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/11xQCzhiVM9gTZkUsu1UNs7z4dpwHpRQSUUZySY7xLv0/htmlview?sle=true#]Kib[/url]:

ZUUThTR.png

 

Based on this we can see that although your off-spec weapon will always be less powerful, there is a way that you can have your cake and...eat most of it too. Also note that this math does not take into consideration any RNG - there are drops that you can find that give you AP on top of what you get by doing dailies, raids, etc. This chart assumes you get one drop per mythic dungeons per week, when the statistical likely hood is actually a bit higher than just 1:1, but RNG is random so...ya.

 

 

 

Thanks, Locky! You Da Man!

I know.

 

The URL-Thing isn't working right.

Nice post! I like the Dual-Specc-Information.

Now I know how to skill and first without Tank-Weapon.

 

You Da Man! =]

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9 minutes ago, Namuria said:

 

The URL-Thing isn't working right.

Fixed.

9 minutes ago, Namuria said:

You Da Man! =]


jack-nickleson-shinning-cinemagraph.gif

 

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Thanks for this. I'm about to bring a level of dumb to this thread though...

 

I'm having trouble figuring out the havoc rerecorded path from the image above.  1,1,1,,2,2,2,2,3,3,3,4,4,5,5,5...

 

Urr... what? 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10 would be more logical for a 'path' ?

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Just now, toldorn said:

I'm having trouble figuring out the havoc rerecorded path from the image above.  1,1,1,,2,2,2,2,3,3,3,4,4,5,5,5...

Ya, I didn't make it nor is it how I would have made it.

Do all of the 1s first, then the 2s, then 3s, etc. This, for the most part, means everyone will be getting the same traits at the same time but there is a little wiggle room - it won't matter much though.

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5 minutes ago, Lockybalboa said:

Ya, I didn't make it nor is it how I would have made it.

Do all of the 1s first, then the 2s, then 3s, etc. This, for the most part, means everyone will be getting the same traits at the same time but there is a little wiggle room - it won't matter much though.

ok, thats interesting to know.  I would of thought getting to inner demons / rage of the illidari asap would of been a more sensible approach.  Guess not :)

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4 minutes ago, toldorn said:

ok, thats interesting to know.  I would of thought getting to inner demons / rage of the illidari asap would of been a more sensible approach.  Guess not :)

Keep in mind this is with the idea of raiding where you'll have at least 20 points before the first raids are out. So you will have Anguish of the Deceiver and Rage of the Illidari for raid. Inner Demons is okay for AoE, but doesn't add a massive amount - additionally the pre-reqs for it are not as amazing as some of the other traits. Feast on the Souls is nice, but Deceiver's Fury is basically useless.

Contained Fury (more max fury) and Demon Rage (Demon Blades/Bite does more damage) are far better than either FoS or DF.

 

I made my own image to replace the other Havoc one, I hate confusing information and information that isn't presented consistently.

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6mQyT8l.png

 

There is one non-used Thing in it?

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9 minutes ago, Namuria said:

6mQyT8l.png

 

There is one non-used Thing in it?

If you are talking about the traits that are not connected to any other traits, those are special traits that you unlock after getting all 34 "main" traits on the artifact.  The bonus from them is a small, flat damage/healing/survivability increase for dps/healers/tanks respectively.  There's 20 points you can put into them, and putting all 20 points is more expensive than getting the first 34 to unlock them.

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13 minutes ago, Orthios said:

If you are talking about the traits that are not connected to any other traits, those are special traits that you unlock after getting all 34 "main" traits on the artifact.  The bonus from them is a small, flat damage/healing/survivability increase for dps/healers/tanks respectively.  There's 20 points you can put into them, and putting all 20 points is more expensive than getting the first 34 to unlock them.


tumblr_mnyyiffbua1qlt87mo2_r3_500.gif

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Ah, oh - saw it on the tank-pictures, but on the havoc's is no 0/20 - so I had no idea. But now: I know.

Thank you! :D

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Posted (edited)

Hey fellas, I am returning to WoW after not having played and raided for about 6-7 years (!). A lot of things have changed and I am about to play as a V-DH in Legion primarily. At the moment I am reading and learning everything there is about the upcoming expansion and currently I am concerned about the V-DH Artifact weapon skillpath. Since refunding after the 13th/14th point is spent might set you back too much, I sincerly want to prevent going the wrong paths with my V-DH. So basically I have three questions:

 

1. When should someone pick the "Primary Path" and when the "Survivability"? What are the reasons? Since V-DH is going to be awesome in Mythic+ Dungeons, is one of those paths better suited for this purpose? (Keep in mind: I want and I am going to raid as a V-DH aswell (not hardcore, not casual, rather in between.. ye I know).

2.  Are there any other known "viable" paths? Let's define "viable" here as a certain low threshold of probability that you have to respecc because something is not fitting well.

3. Which one of the elite traits is the "strongest"? Please bear with me here: I haven't played in a long time and I am trying to keep up, so if the answer is "There is no "strongest" trait, it just depends on your own playstyle / content you aim to do" then please tell me so.

 

Thanks in advance

 

Have a good one

Edited by Ilduros

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16 minutes ago, Ilduros said:

1. When should someone pick the "Primary Path" and when the "Survivability"? What are the reasons? Since V-DH is going to be awesome in Mythic+ Dungeons, is one of those paths better suited for this purpose? (Keep in mind: I want and I am going to raid as a V-DH aswell (not hardcore, not casual, rather in between.. ye I know).

Either way you'll have or be very near to having the first two traits before raid comes out. If you feel strongly about your ability to tank effectively without going for max survivability then the primary path is likely for you, more damage while still getting the tanky traits quickly. Personally I'm going the survivability path because I rather be unkillable then do a little more damage. Also, Charred Warblades is just amazing for 5mans and that is 95% of your life the first three weeks.

 

19 minutes ago, Ilduros said:

2.  Are there any other known "viable" paths? Let's define "viable" here as a certain low threshold of probability that you have to respecc because something is not fitting well.

No. Option A or Option B is basically your only options, any other method would result in either getting the kind of crummy gold trait first or getting more average traits while ignoring gold traits. Both would be bad.

 

20 minutes ago, Ilduros said:

3. Which one of the elite traits is the "strongest"? Please bear with me here: I haven't played in a long time and I am trying to keep up, so if the answer is "There is no "strongest" trait, it just depends on your own playstyle / content you aim to do" then please tell me so.

This depends a bit, 2 out of 3 of the gold traits are clearly better than the 3rd trait, but what of those first two traits you want first depends on what you want to do and your tank style. The first, Fueled by Pain, is a solid pick up that offers some survivability and some damage (the traits that come before it give damage, not the trait itself really) where as Charred Warblades doesn't really give any damage but offers a major boost in selfhealing.

IMO, Charred Warblades is by far the strongest because of what you will use it for, the first three weeks of the xpack and a good amount of time even after raids are out are going to be spent in 5 man content, normals, heroics, mythic and mythic+ and in all of those the Charred Warblades path is wicked strong.

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1 hour ago, Lockybalboa said:

IMO, Charred Warblades is by far the strongest because of what you will use it for, the first three weeks of the xpack and a good amount of time even after raids are out are going to be spent in 5 man content, normals, heroics, mythic and mythic+ and in all of those the Charred Warblades path is wicked strong.

First of all thanks for your response. But why exactly is Charred Warblades the strongest? Is it because you'll AoE a lot of mobs and through Sigil of Flame and Immolation Aura you'll get a nice amount of selfheal? Is this the main reason?

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Just now, Ilduros said:

First of all thanks for your response. But why exactly is Charred Warblades the strongest? Is it because you'll AoE a lot of mobs and through Sigil of Flame and Immolation Aura you'll get a nice amount of selfheal? Is this the main reason?

Yes. 15% of fire damage is a lot of healing between jump, aura, and sigil.

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Well I am glad then! Thanks very much, I appreciate your effort and support.

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Hey! Thanks for the tips.

I'm trying out my new demonhunter and I started out as DPS (havoc), but after getting all my relics and lvl 110 I decided to change to tank (vengeance) and spent all my AP points on it...

I just have no relics yet. How should I proceed? Thanks for help.

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You'll be fine doing heroics with 750 weapon. You can check the AH and maybe find some cheap relics there or wait till world quests.

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I don't agree with the suggested artifact path. Balanced Blades should not be prioritised so highly. It should be taken next to last, as it does not provide any meaningful damage boost for single target encounters. Furthermore, taking Critical Chaos after Rage of the Illidari must be an oversight. Critical Chaos provides the single highest damage increase out of all traits.

The optimal artifact path should be:

  1. Fury of the Illidari -> Warglaives of Chaos -> Sharpened Glaives -> Critical Chaos (!)
  2. Unleashed Demons -> Demon Speed -> Illidari Knowledge -> Rage of the Illidari (!)
  3. Feast on the Souls -> Deceiver's Fury -> Inner Demons (!)
  4. Chaos Vision -> Anguish of the Deceiver (!)

(!) indicates a huge damage increase

I'm unsure about the ranking of the remaining traits, but their damage contribution will be negligible either way.

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You can disagree with it, but the math has already been run and the leading theorycrafters have all agreed that this is the best pathing method.

 

Critical Chaos is good, but not worth delaying Fury of the Illidari.

Feast on the Souls is basically useless without Anguish of the Deceiver unless you're on a ridiculously heavy AoE fight.

Deceiver's Fury is only taken because you're forced to take it to get to Inner Demons, Inner Demons is not even close to Anguish of the Deceiver.

1 hour ago, Anubisblack said:

I'm unsure about the ranking of the remaining traits, but their damage contribution will be negligible either way.

Actually, Contained Fury is quite good. 30 extra Fury pool is great.

 

Also, keep in mind that the path is chosen with the idea that you want to be the best you can be as quickly as possible. That means 20 traits. 20 is the go-to number for pre-raid traits and with 20 traits to spend, getting RotI and AotD is by far the best.

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9 hours ago, Lockybalboa said:

You can disagree with it, but the math has already been run and the leading theorycrafters have all agreed that this is the best pathing method.

Can you please point me to the "leading theorycrafters" and the "math" that has already been run?

Currently, there is a huge disagreement from what I'm seeing. Simulationcraft uses the following artifact path, which does not take Rage of the Illidari, but takes Balanced Blades, which is questionable and needs verification. Ask Mr. Robot's simulator produces similar results to mine. Critical Chaos should be valued higher than Demonic Speed, but the simulation shows different. In either case, 

9 hours ago, Lockybalboa said:

Critical Chaos is good, but not worth delaying Fury of the Illidari.

disagrees with simulation. I also don't understand why Anguish is prioritised, when Inner Demons is a bigger damage increase.

9 hours ago, Lockybalboa said:

Feast on the Souls is basically useless without Anguish of the Deceiver unless you're on a ridiculously heavy AoE fight.

Deceiver's Fury is only taken because you're forced to take it to get to Inner Demons, Inner Demons is not even close to Anguish of the Deceiver.

 Feast is taken to get Inner Demons. Can you show calculations that it is "not even close to Anguish"?

9 hours ago, Lockybalboa said:

Actually, Contained Fury is quite good. 30 extra Fury pool is great.

I'd like a quantification of "quite good". Available simulations undervalue it.

9 hours ago, Lockybalboa said:

Also, keep in mind that the path is chosen with the idea that you want to be the best you can be as quickly as possible. That means 20 traits. 20 is the go-to number for pre-raid traits and with 20 traits to spend, getting RotI and AotD is by far the best.

I don't necessarily disagree with the 20 trait limit. I think the path needs to be per point spent though. So even if the end result would be to take the "golden traits", some intermediate traits need to be prioritised, due to their higher contribution to overall damage.

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Let's compare the DPS gain per trait between Simulationcraft and Ask Mr. Robot.

  • Warglaives of Chaos
    • Simulationcraft: (1 - 1/1.15) * (23930 + 76543) = 13105 (overvalued due to Critical Chaos' and Relics' multiplicative effect)
    • Ask Mr. Robot: 9871 - 12107
  • Sharpened Glaives
    • Simulationcraft: 55650 - 18756 / 1.15 * 3 = 6721
    • Ask Mr. Robot: 5261 - 7559
  • Critical Chaos
    • Simulationcraft: 23930 * (1 - (3283046 + 7458610 / 1.36) / (3283046 + (7458610 / 1.36) * 1.18)) + 76543 * (1 - (10540173 + 23917077 / 1.36) / (10540173 + (23917077 / 1.36) * 1.18)) = 10165
    • Ask Mr. Robot: 8842 - 11239

[To be extended...]

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Sims and pathing work was done mostly by Wordup, Calli, and Pawkets - they can commonly be found on the DH Discord channel. I'm not sure who Wowhead has doing their DH stuff but their pathing is in agreement also. If you want to argue with them feel free, personally I have other things to do.

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I have a question regarding the path after you take Anguish of the Deceiver. You state that you immediately head for Inner Demons afterwards. The guide on icy-veins states that you go for Demon Rage and Contained Fury. What is better?

 

Edited by Ilduros

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