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Phaia

Everything Stays on CD

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I've been playing my DK for a while and am a fairly new 90 - I thought I was following the rotation listed in the guides almost to a T but the majority of the time I stand there auto attacking because all of my abilities are on CD and my runes are constantly recharging, I thought this was a class mechanic until I was told Im not managing my runes, so right now I'm really not sure what I'm doing wrong or what to do to improve it.

I have a 460 ilevel and I'm pulling at best 10-15k DPS so Im not really sure what I'm doing wrong, or what to even do to improve on the problem, if anyone has any ideas or advice I'd appreciate it because I'm at a loss as to what to do or where to go from here with this class

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Haste is extremely important for all DK dps specs even if it's not their best stat. Since your only 460 I'd assume you have maybe 1-2k haste rating which would explain why you're constantly waiting around for runes. It won't feel smooth until you get atleast 5k haste, just make sure you fill in the gaps with Horn of Winter/Summon Ghoul/Death and Decay if you have a unholy rune up.

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While low haste is definitely a good candidate for being the issue in terms of "feel", 10-15k tells me something else could be going on. I don't think it's realistic to be doing that low even with that gear.

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My haste is current 2,951, and yes everyone keeps telling me doing 10-15k is extremely low for my gear level, which I thought and agree with as well, but I have no clue what I'm doing wrong or where I'm going wrong, I thought I was following my rotation that I've read to use but I've been told that following the rotation is a bad idea and it's all about DK priority which at this point I'm back at square one and feel like a level 55 DK with no clue how to work this class.

I've talked to guildmates and other people who have DK's and seem to be able to function fairly effectively with them and I keep getting told Im wasteing runes, spamming buttons and just not managing my runes or runic power, which I'm at a loss for at the moment because I'm not sure what else to do

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There isn't really a "rotation." All DK classes work on a priority system, but Frost in particular will have your rotation constantly changing depending on what procs you get and when, and also depending on your choice of talents. Do you have a link to your armory? We might be able to identify issues with your gear that are keeping you from hitting your marks, and then we can see what kind of build you're using so we can give spec-specific advice.

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Sure, this is the link you were asking about

http://us.battle.net...re/Xerhi/simple

That's my character, my gear setup and everything that I'm running with right now.

Also as far as priority goes, I try to just hit what I see proccing, and within one or two abilities all my runes are gone, I'm sitting on a CD waiting for my runes to recharge, and I've burnt all my runic power on Frost Strike, and it leaves me in a position where all I really have the option of doing is auto attacking.

I've mentioned this to guildmates and they said I'm just spamming buttons and not managing my runes, that as a DK there should always be something I can use

Edited by Phaia

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I have to ask, are you using your Blood Tap charges?

I also have to ask, why are you using blood tap? Runic empowerment is better for 2H frost.

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Sure, this is the link you were asking about

http://us.battle.net...re/Xerhi/simple

That's my character, my gear setup and everything that I'm running with right now.

Also as far as priority goes, I try to just hit what I see proccing, and within one or two abilities all my runes are gone, I'm sitting on a CD waiting for my runes to recharge, and I've burnt all my runic power on Frost Strike, and it leaves me in a position where all I really have the option of doing is auto attacking.

I've mentioned this to guildmates and they said I'm just spamming buttons and not managing my runes, that as a DK there should always be something I can use

No glyphs, no gems, no enchants besides the free Runeforging, no reforges, no maxed out professions, and showing that you have no knowledge of your spec's priority system. You're not making a good case for yourself at all. It looks like you did the minimum to get to 90 and now think that you can compete on DPS without optimizing your gear and making the best use of your abilities.

Start on page one of Icyveins' Frost DK guide. Take the time to make sure you have covered all the bases in learning your class. Get the glyphs and talents that improve your performance, and spend some time on a target dummy learning what to use in different situations. Don't just push buttons and farm numbers, slow down and make sure that what you're doing lines up with the priority list and you understand what ability to use with which kind of proc. Watch your Blood Plague uptime and use Plague Leech as it's about to expire, then reapply it with Outbreak (better) or Plague Strike (if Outbreak is on cooldown). Switch from Blood Tap to Runic Empowerment for 2H Frost. With time and practice, how to play the class will become second nature, but it takes more thought and effort than you have put in so far.

Once you've covered the basics, then work on optimizing your gear. Don't worry about buying the most expensive enchants, but do at least buy the cheap versions of the shoulder and leg enchants, green-quality gems and whatever else you can get for under 100g, using askmrrobot.com as your guide for optimization. We're not talking about small improvements, but great leaps especially at lower gear levels.

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No glyphs, no gems, no enchants besides the free Runeforging, no reforges, no maxed out professions, and showing that you have no knowledge of your spec's priority system. You're not making a good case for yourself at all. It looks like you did the minimum to get to 90 and now think that you can compete on DPS without optimizing your gear and making the best use of your abilities.

I'm not trying to compete with DPS with my current gear setup, that's never what I said or intended to say I was trying to do, and I wasn't trying to make a case for myself on anything other than the fact I'm having alot of problems understanding the class mechanics, I understand gear optimization is an issue however my main problem right now is I'm having zero luck grasping the DK mechanics as a whole, as far as talent specs go I honestly thought the spec I was using was somewhat viable, and I use my blood taps every time it comes up as best I can which I'll be honest as of right now it takes me a while to build up Blood Tap charges from my Frost Strikes.

As far as keeping my diseases up goes, I'm trying to do the best I can in keeping them running the problem I run into is when outbreak is on CD I'm usually left without any runes to use plague strike or Icy Touch until I get some runes back up to use one of the two, I use Rime procs whenever they come up, but with no runes to work with I don't get that many Obliterates in.

I understand it's about proc priority and knowing when to use what proc with what ability, and I've spent upwards to 5 1/2 hours on a target dummy on Tuesday with no real luck in finding out what I'm doing wrong with my rotation that keeps me in a constant state of basically auto attacking for extended periods at a time, then using one obliterate and frost strike, then going back to auto attacking.

I haven't tried to optimize my gear to it's maximum yet because Im still struggling with the basic mechanics of the DK class, I wasn't expecting to top out DPS charts, but everyone in my guild tells me they can't figure out why I'm only pulling 10-15k dps at best, as far as putting in effort I wouldn't have set at a target dummy for nearly 6 hours straight one day trying to figure out what I'm doing wrong mechanically if I wasn't trying to learn this class.

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I'd recommend switching to Runic Empowerment over blood tap if you're having rune issues. I only offspec dps, but I too often find that I have 5 second patches where all I'm doing it auto attacking. For me it mostly comes down to Runic Empowerment proc's. if I have a stretch of bad rng then I'll end up with no runes and no RP for a few seconds. In your case I would guess you probably aren't using blood tap to its full potential, and misusing it and/or not using it makes it much worse than picking a more automated talent like runic empowerment or even runic corruption.

The other thing is plague leech. You should be able to do 15k dps just from diseases at your ilvl. Using plague leech effectively is a fairly advanced tactic and if you're having dps problems I wouldn't worry about it right now. If you plague leach without refreshing your diseases immediately afterwards then you're losing a lot of dps. I'd recommend switching plague leach for unholy blight for the time being and focus on maintaining 100% up time on your diseases.

Last note, I can simplify the rotation for you quite a bit, it won't be optimal but you'll be able to do 40k dps in your sleep with your current gear.

Apply diseases with outbreak or unholy blight > Spam Obliterate > howling blast only if it procs > Frost Strike until you refresh enough runes to obliterate

Edited by Storm

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Also - I'm opening with Outbreak as much as I can when it is up, and then with my diseases up I'll Obliterate, then use Frost Strike to use my Runic Power, then usually after that I'm stuck auto attacking because I don't have any runes left, my diseases will normally fall of the mob for several seconds until I get the runes to apply them one at a time, I'll Plague Strike, return to auto attacking until I get enough runes for a Icy Touch, then return to auto attacking until I recharge enough to do an Obliterate at a time, and hope for a Rime proc somewhere in between, then after my Oblits are done I'll burn my Runic Power on Frost Strike then go back to auto attacking again.

I try to use my procs when I see them, but I don't see them entirely alot, this is what I mean by not completely understanding the mechanics of the class, or how to prioritize and utilize my procs to their full benefit

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I'm not trying to compete with DPS with my current gear setup, that's never what I said or intended to say I was trying to do, and I wasn't trying to make a case for myself on anything other than the fact I'm having alot of problems understanding the class mechanics, I understand gear optimization is an issue however my main problem right now is I'm having zero luck grasping the DK mechanics as a whole, as far as talent specs go I honestly thought the spec I was using was somewhat viable, and I use my blood taps every time it comes up as best I can which I'll be honest as of right now it takes me a while to build up Blood Tap charges from my Frost Strikes.

As far as keeping my diseases up goes, I'm trying to do the best I can in keeping them running the problem I run into is when outbreak is on CD I'm usually left without any runes to use plague strike or Icy Touch until I get some runes back up to use one of the two, I use Rime procs whenever they come up, but with no runes to work with I don't get that many Obliterates in.

I understand it's about proc priority and knowing when to use what proc with what ability, and I've spent upwards to 5 1/2 hours on a target dummy on Tuesday with no real luck in finding out what I'm doing wrong with my rotation that keeps me in a constant state of basically auto attacking for extended periods at a time, then using one obliterate and frost strike, then going back to auto attacking.

I haven't tried to optimize my gear to it's maximum yet because Im still struggling with the basic mechanics of the DK class, I wasn't expecting to top out DPS charts, but everyone in my guild tells me they can't figure out why I'm only pulling 10-15k dps at best, as far as putting in effort I wouldn't have set at a target dummy for nearly 6 hours straight one day trying to figure out what I'm doing wrong mechanically if I wasn't trying to learn this class.

Also - I'm opening with Outbreak as much as I can when it is up, and then with my diseases up I'll Obliterate, then use Frost Strike to use my Runic Power, then usually after that I'm stuck auto attacking because I don't have any runes left, my diseases will normally fall of the mob for several seconds until I get the runes to apply them one at a time, I'll Plague Strike, return to auto attacking until I get enough runes for a Icy Touch, then return to auto attacking until I recharge enough to do an Obliterate at a time, and hope for a Rime proc somewhere in between, then after my Oblits are done I'll burn my Runic Power on Frost Strike then go back to auto attacking again.

I try to use my procs when I see them, but I don't see them entirely alot, this is what I mean by not completely understanding the mechanics of the class, or how to prioritize and utilize my procs to their full benefit

You sound like you're doing the rotation correctly, but I think you're overstating things a little. You should be able to Obliterate 3 times in a row before you run out of runes and have to wait until they recharge. By default, all your Blood runes are turned into Death runes in Frost spec, so that you are able to use them on Obliterates. Blood Tap doesn't really do much for this spec, since you only have the choice of converting a Frost or Unholy rune and all of your abilities use one or the other anyway.

Edited by Tarazet

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First thing I saw in your most recent post is using Icy Touch.... You should only be using Howling Blast to keep Frost Fever up.

I would go to Curse and download the addon CLC Dk

http://www.curse.com/addons/wow/clc-dk

Be sure to go into the options for the addon and check Outbreak in the Rotation Options if it's not. Then try following the priority it shows you and see if that helps much. You might need to make some adjustments to what it shows since it like to have you spam Frost Strike a lot. You really should only be using it when you are at 80+ Runic Power. I spent about 10 mins on it with 3.3k haste and still occasionally hit some downtime for up to about 5 seconds. I tried to fill these gaps by tossing an Empower Rune Weapon to refresh my runes. But the 5 min CD is a bit long so you gotta be careful when you use it when you start LFR.

I recorded a video of me DPSing a training dummy. Gonna be a while till it processes but hopefully it might clear some things up. Look more at my key presses then the rotation on CLC DK to see what I'm doing.

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Also, when your Blood Plague is about to fall off and Outbreak isn't available, use Plague Leech to consume it while FF and BP are still active and you'll get the rune you need to use Plague Strike. Ideally you can sometimes also reapply them with Pillar of Frost up.

Don't neglect Raise Dead, either. You can have 50% uptime on that ghoul which is a decent chunk of DPS.

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I've tried using Bitten's DK SpellFlash to try and figure out something with a rotation or priorities but I feel like I'm sitting there playing whackamole with the abilities and am still left clueless about what each proc is doing and why, as far as plague strike goes I can use it occasionally but with my runes being spent I normally can't until it's been down for a while.

In general as soon as I do my opening abilities I'm done for half the fight while waiting on something to come back up so I can try and refresh my diseases or attempt to deal more damage to whatever I'm fighitng, which leaves my most of the time auto attacking because my entire bar is greyed out, I try to oblit as much as possible and frost strike and then refresh diseases as they become available.

Ive read the guide five times now, and as far as what to give priority to or what to use when I still am really in the dark there, I knew keeping diseases up is important, but Im not sure now when I should obliterate and when I shouldn't or when to use any of the cool downs I have compared to using a Frost Strike or Obliterate, and I'm having alot of problems even using Obliterate when I'm having to try and fit in a Plague Strike in there, which usually means I don't get very many Rime procs

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I've tried using Bitten's DK SpellFlash to try and figure out something with a rotation or priorities but I feel like I'm sitting there playing whackamole with the abilities and am still left clueless about what each proc is doing and why, as far as plague strike goes I can use it occasionally but with my runes being spent I normally can't until it's been down for a while.

In general as soon as I do my opening abilities I'm done for half the fight while waiting on something to come back up so I can try and refresh my diseases or attempt to deal more damage to whatever I'm fighitng, which leaves my most of the time auto attacking because my entire bar is greyed out, I try to oblit as much as possible and frost strike and then refresh diseases as they become available.

Ive read the guide five times now, and as far as what to give priority to or what to use when I still am really in the dark there, I knew keeping diseases up is important, but Im not sure now when I should obliterate and when I shouldn't or when to use any of the cool downs I have compared to using a Frost Strike or Obliterate, and I'm having alot of problems even using Obliterate when I'm having to try and fit in a Plague Strike in there, which usually means I don't get very many Rime procs

Killing Machine gives you an automatic crit on your next Frost Strike or Obliterate. You always want to use this on Obliterate when using a 2-handed weapon. If you're dual-wielding, you use it on Frost Strike.

Rime lets you use Howling Blast without consuming any runes. (Icy Touch works too, but you should never use Icy Touch as a Frost DK.) You MUST MUST MUST use this proc before you use Obliterate again.

Edited by Tarazet

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There is one thing I need to mention - you shouldn't just spend all of your runes. You should Obliterate as frequently as you can, but don't spend the rest of your runes on anything unless it's absolutely necessary. It's pretty much Obliterate until you get a Rime proc, then immediately use Howling Blast (no runes). Use Frost Strike whenever nothing else is procced. If you get a Killing Machine proc, wait until you can Obliterate again. Your swing timer is long enough that it will take several seconds for your autoattacks to overwrite the KM proc.

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This is where I'm at, Im trying to go through the proper rotation, if there is such a thing and use Obliterate as much as possible, but when I do get a KM proc, usually the proc timer is gone by the time Obliterate is available after my Runes recharge which leaves me auto attacking,as far as not to use Icy Touch, I try not to and just use Howling Blast, but I'm not noticing an abundance of Rime procs I assume because I'm not using Obliterate that much, which I would like to, it just seems everytime I have the opportunity to use it it's never available.

Id say 90% of the time when I see KM proc, Obliterate is recharging and I don't have the Runic Power to use Frost Strike, I'm forced to Plague Strike even if Blood Plague isn't in danger of coming off of my target just to try and build Runic Power so I can Frost Strike in a last ditch effort to keep my DPS flowing, which so far isn't working really that well.

I'm still having problems figuring out which procs to use and when, and which cooldowns to use or when, it seems like I have a good opener and about a second or two of burst DPS, but after that I'm dead in the water and just sit there and auto swing while I wait for something or anything to come available again, I've read and reread the Frost guide and I'm still extremely lost as to what I should be using or when.

Also when I get a Killing Machine proc and Obliterate isn't available should I use Frost Strike or wait and try and use Obliterate with the KM proc, or if it's not up use Frost Strike with KM?

Edited by Phaia

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You're playing 2H Frost, so you should only use your KM proc on Obliterate unless you are absolutely positive it will fall off before your runes have recharged. The spec does have some downtime built-in by its nature, which makes it important to make sure you're not using any additional abilities that cost runes - just the core priority list. Using literally anything else will have a negative impact on your damage output. I've seen Death Knights do all manner of silly of things - UH DK's that were using Blood Strike and Death Strike and Frost DK's using Death Coil and Blood DK's doing all sorts of wacky interpretations of the rotation..

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Basically you have to get used to not pressing your buttons ;)

I had the same problem when I started playing feral on my druid; I would spam what ever ability was available which meant that I was energy starved and kept wasting combo points. After awhile I learned to lean back and wait for my energy to recharge; which in turn let me use it on the abilities that mattered. You have to do the same thing.

Apply your dots, throw out some oblits and a frost strike. Add in a HB if you get a proc.

Then sit back and wait for your runes to recharge. You're still doing damage with dots running and melee swings, but more importantly you're not wasting your presious ressources!

It took me some time to realize; as a melee dps you don't have to cast all the time.

If you're having problems learning your rotation make sure to take the passive talents. No sense in complicating things more than they need to be :)

After some time you'll learn to use things like Horn of Winter to fill out the dead time in your rotation. That's good, but don't worry about it untill you're more comftable.

You'll be fine mate, you just need some time to adjust your playstyle to endgame content.

Try to run some lfr several times a week. You'll get some gear which is always nice, and you'll get some practice.

Don't do target dummies; you'll never see a boss just standing still, and worse than that target dummies are freaking boring.

This is a game about having fun - go have fun and you'll see big numbers eventually :)

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Heya, I've been reading through the thread - there's a few questions I'm going to ask.

1. Are you running frost presence? When you change specs you'll lose any presence you're using, and dps-ing as frost without being in frost presence is bad because Frost Strike is much cheaper when you are using it.

2. Why don't you get glyphs? While they aren't necessary to enjoy the game, they bring interesting new effects to your abilities.

Get the glyphs, gem, enchant - that way you'll be set in terms of what you need to gear if needed. The best way to learn how to play your class is to ask someone on your server to help you with it, that's how I learned to dps as frost back in Wrath when I started playing. You could also make a video using FRAPS to show us what you are doing - that way we may point out what you are doing wrong.

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