gahhda

Why I have no faith left in blizzard.

79 posts in this topic

They also said there's a long PTR cycle ahead, but yes, it was interesting that he quoted a comment about Destruction and went on to talk about Affliction. It seems like that conversation is mostly PvP based though.

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I wouldn't be so quick to judge. It's only the beginning of PTR testing.

I was the same this morning, when I finally started playing my mage again. I hadn't done any 5.2 and 5.3 content on live servers (we mostly play on the PTR). So, I was progressing through my legendary quest line and all of a sudden, I'm given a quest that requires me (a PvE player) to win two battlegrounds (!!!). I looked it up and found pages and pages of complaints on Battle.net and MMO-C.

Having no choice, but comforted by the fact that I wasn't the only one thinking Blizzard had made a very bad design decision, I did these battlegrounds. My first few attempts in the Temple of Kotmogu ended up with an obliteration of my Alliance group by the opposing Horde group. Then, I got better and a few attempts later, I got a decent group and we won. For Silvershard Mines, it only took 3 attempts, but I was starting to get a rough understanding of how PvP works and it was a lot easier. I actually got to enjoy the last few BGs, even though I initially thought it would be such an ordeal for me. So, my point is: don't judge too quickly (not to mention, this is PTR stuff, it will change and change again).

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Off-topic, but I need more than two hands to count how many times I lost silvershard by less than 50 points trying to finish that questline...Posted Image

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I can kind of see where Blizz is coming from where they want to nerf KJC, every lock does take it, but making it completely useless and then only comparing it for affliction if fucktarded. Even so, as people have already said, there is plenty of time for Blizz to take a step back and go "Waaaaaaait a minute, who the fuck thought this up?"

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I just want some professional warlock opinion on this since the looks of the current change make people mad.

What would you think if they left it the way it was except tweaking it so that it doesn't work with channels unless you use the CD version? Would that in particular be a bit better? Or even if it just doesn't work with Malefic Grasp, that way you can still take the dps loss of switching to Drain Soul at higher HP amounts how would that be?

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Blizzard doesn't understand how to balance the game which is obviously a difficult task but all you have to do is look at forums to see that all the crying leads to huge blizz nerf bats consistently. Right now locks are the choice for QQ and the bat is headed for us. It's just a normal part of the cycle for blizz and casual players. If you watch what ghost crawler says I think that's enough to show you how little they know the game. It takes 2 things people complain a class is op and that class not complaining that triggers it.

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It all depends on how much movement will be needed in the next tier. If every fight is like Tortos then both Affliction and Destruction will be absolutely devastated. If there is only about 20-30 seconds total every fight where movement is required, they will be "ok". Demo will be fine for the most part.

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Blizzard doesn't understand how to balance the game which is obviously a difficult task but all you have to do is look at forums to see that all the crying leads to huge blizz nerf bats consistently. Right now locks are the choice for QQ and the bat is headed for us. It's just a normal part of the cycle for blizz and casual players. If you watch what ghost crawler says I think that's enough to show you how little they know the game. It takes 2 things people complain a class is op and that class not complaining that triggers it.

On the contrary I think they know more FAR more about the game than we care to imagine. It's successful with the same graphics and same progression dynamic for what, 9 years? It's been a day and they already made Haunt castable while moving as a baseline. I think everyone is freaking out too much.

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I think it's just following the QQ wave though. They usually not always over nerf if they do. At least on the classes I have played that has been the experience.

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Also Omaric if you could add my btag that would be awesome you have much more experience so far with lock then me and I need any help I can get being I'm about a month and a half in to playing lock. Jelvis#1448.

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Mage showing up for hatred and pokes:

Guys, you cannot cast everything on the move? Tell that to mages. (Though I do understand that hunters would be very special now, being ranged and not suffering from movement).

You cannot play every spec equally? Tell that to arcane mages in 5.2—5.3 (yes, I'm aware some professional 25 mages are viable arcanes), and to every non-arcane mage right before that.

OK, I do understand every class is special and warlocks used to have all these cool things. But it's not how it's been with many other classes, right?

Edited by areanu

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Mages are completely different. For a start, they have blink. This allows them to go a short distance instantly, meaning at the cost of one GCD get out of whatever they need to and start casting again. With what Warlocks have in store for them, they will need to stop casting, move for a few seconds and then begin casting. This is a much bigger difference than what mages can do. Seccondly, mages are getting buffed all the time, and if im overexaggerating then at the very least are nerfed much less than locks.

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Teleport > Blink.

That said, the MAIN thing to remember is this will be stuff live for Patch 5.4 which won't land until (my estimation) late August/early-mid September. That's a nice, hearty 2-3 months away. How many of you know what you'll be doing in 2-3 months? Things change. They've already announced most things on the PTR have values that look bizarre because they are placeholders. The most changes will come within a month of the PTR. Then things will slow down as numbers are fine tuned. Finally, the patch will go live, something will break, and we'll get our final fix, the hot fix. Rest assured, Warlocks, we have ALWAYS had the ability to be at or near the top in terms of dishing out pain. That's not going to change.

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Teleport > Blink.

I don't agree at all. While teleport allows "unintended" things (Ji'kun), it's far more situational than Blink. Blink is used on the fly in whatever direction the mage is headed or wants to go where Teleport is always the same static spot that you need to be in range of. (Edit: Blink also has half the cooldown time at 15 seconds vs 30 seconds). It's simply not as versatile.

My biggest problem with the KJC change boils down to there being no real reason for it. What's the problem? Warlocks aren't blowing up other classes in dps races save when they get a lucky string of procs using Lei Shen trinket as Demo. Why is a non-turret caster class akin to being a Hunter such an issue? All Affliction Warlocks are taking it, yeah, but they also have no other real option. Archimonde's Vengeance is the biggest turd of a talent ever designed, and no one goes Affliction because they want to win the AoE race.

Instead of these nerfs, they should replace Vengeance with something that's actually attractive, and taking the talent actually feels like a real choice because you'd be missing out on whatever the other options offer.

Edited by Kaboozey

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I prefer Teleport because it ignores height, line of sight, and has a much higher maximum range. To each their own.

KJC's problem isn't that it's too good. It's that it's the CLEAR obvious choice, much like Second Wind was for Warriors. They redesigned Tier 2 talents for Warriors because EVERY SINGLE Warrior ever took Second Wind, much like what Warlocks are doing with KJC. They've already added in baseline Haunt casting and moving for Affliction. Since you can apply Corruption, Agony, and SB:SS while moving, the ONLY things you need to be standing still for as Affliction are applying Unstable Affliction (1 second) and your drain spells.

Personally, I felt one of the reasons Affliction was viable in PvP was abusing line of sight mechanics. Once you applied a Drain effect on someone (DS/MG), you could line of sight yourself from the other person and the drain attack would continue. You can do this with Chaos Bolt and Fear as well. If someone is in sight, you can start your cast, go out of line of sight, and re-appear right before cast execution. This is troublesome to balance, and as such, should be removed.

What KJC did was simplify all the Warlock specs by removing the thought process of when you were going to use Life Tap. You'll have planned Life Taps now. Not when you go below 60% mana, but instead, you'll focus on getting Life Taps in when you're moving and DPS while you're standing still. Destruction has no need for Life Tap, but all of their spells are hard casted, including one of the hardest casting spells in the game, Chaos Bolt. In terms of PvE, there are almost always 2.5-3.0 sec windows for you to stand still and squeeze a CB off. Removing casting while moving will hurt Destruction in PvP quite a bit, but it won't break the class.

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I prefer Teleport because it ignores height, line of sight, and has a much higher maximum range. To each their own.

KJC's problem isn't that it's too good. It's that it's the CLEAR obvious choice, much like Second Wind was for Warriors. They redesigned Tier 2 talents for Warriors because EVERY SINGLE Warrior ever took Second Wind, much like what Warlocks are doing with KJC. They've already added in baseline Haunt casting and moving for Affliction. Since you can apply Corruption, Agony, and SB:SS while moving, the ONLY things you need to be standing still for as Affliction are applying Unstable Affliction (1 second) and your drain spells.

About Tele/Blink, def a preference thing. I didn't mean to say (though it probably came off sounding) that you were wrong. Just that I didn't agree. Posted Image

But yeah, KJC is the clear choice, but that's not the problem in and of itself. Mannoroth has its uses certainly for niche situations. I have NEVER wanted Vengeance though. Ever. They should put something new and actually attractive there. Maybe something that gives us a buff while sitting in our Teleport so I'll like it better? Posted Image

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Also Omaric if you could add my btag that would be awesome you have much more experience so far with lock then me and I need any help I can get being I'm about a month and a half in to playing lock. Jelvis#1448.

Word.

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Short and simply :

The KFC change isn't "ass fucking" warlocks. There are few fights at best that require above-average movement in ToT. And when you -do- have to move, you can do so for 15 seconds every 1.5 minutes. Not many movement mechanics require constant movement, as well. Mages and boomies have done just fine. People "losing faith in blizzard" and "ending my sub becaues this is the last straw!!! QQ" is pretty ridiculous. Just saying.

I seriously doubt a meaningful dps change. Maybe like 1% for some fights, or maybe even 2%. And if so, warlocks can't and shouldn't top the charts against equally geared members every fight. Classes are meant to have strengths and weaknesses. I know we'd want nothing more than to top the charts every single fight, but that is just unfair and boring. If you'd like to shut me up, do some PTR and link some dps results that suggest an oh-so-detrimental, class-breaking, blizzard fuck up toward locks.

Edited by Fillingi

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Saying there aren't movement heavy fights is a little confusing to me.

Jin'rokh - Move out for Ionization, kite focused lightning, dodge lots of lightning and lightning balls during storm phase

Horridon - moving out of sandtraps, poison, totems, and charge. Granted this won't kill your DPS, but it is something to worry about

Council - dodge the barrel rolls, move in and out of groups for Frostbite.

Tortos - shell dodging. This can be quite a hamper on your DPS if you spend a lot of time moving and can't cast and move

Megaera - Cinders, phase transitions, Ice Beams

Ji-kun - movement not needed

Durumu - HUGE single target DPS loss if you are Destruction or Affliction without the ability to cast. Demonology can save Demonic Fury to move and DPS, but without it, you're sacrificing a lot of DPS.

Primordius - movement not necessary

Dark Animus - TONS of movement, especially for a Warlock dealing with Matter Swap

Iron Qon - movement not necessary

Twins - movement not necessary

Lei Shen - lots of moving in this fight, so not having move and cast capabilities hurts.

It's going to make up more than a 1% DPS change when you go from moving and casting to not being able to do so. The moving default spell for Affliction is Fel Flame. Fel Flame just doesn't even come close to comparing to the damage Malefic Grasp or Drain Soul. If you're moving as Affliction, there goes your DPS. This is mostly because they tied the spec into a drain mechanic. At least if the filler remained Shadowbolt, we'd not see such a big drop off. Regardless, with the current design, losing the ability to move and DPS will crush Affliction in heavy movement fights.

Destruction has the ability to cast Rain of Fire or Conflagrate while moving, but both of those are hard to time specifically for movement fights. Rotations would need to be modified as you'd need to save your Conflag charges to do effective DPS while moving. To compensate, you'd be using more Incinerates that didn't have Backdraft applied creating a compounding issue where you were running low on mana and not doing optimal DPS. The alternative is to use Fel Flame which just doesn't compare at all to the other spells. During execute, you can plan Shadowburns, but that's the last 20% of each fight.

Demonology gets hurt the least with the KJC modifier. This will, however, require lots of new thoughts and plans on spell rotations. Now, instead of simply watching for Perfect Aim procs to pop into Meta, now we'll have to make sure we have enough Demonic Fury to do effective damage during the full duration of movement. Crappier than how we have it now, but whatever, we can adjust.

All in all, there will be some large adjustments, but playing Affliction in heavy movement fights just won't happen.

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Jin'rokh - Move out for Ionization, kite focused lightning, dodge lots of lightning and lightning balls during storm phase

Horridon - moving out of sandtraps, poison, totems, and charge. Granted this won't kill your DPS, but it is something to worry about

Council - dodge the barrel rolls, move in and out of groups for Frostbite.

Tortos - shell dodging. This can be quite a hamper on your DPS if you spend a lot of time moving and can't cast and move

Megaera - Cinders, phase transitions, Ice Beams

Ji-kun - movement not needed

Durumu - HUGE single target DPS loss if you are Destruction or Affliction without the ability to cast. Demonology can save Demonic Fury to move and DPS, but without it, you're sacrificing a lot of DPS.

Primordius - movement not necessary

Dark Animus - TONS of movement, especially for a Warlock dealing with Matter Swap

Iron Qon - movement not necessary

Twins - movement not necessary

Lei Shen - lots of moving in this fight, so not having move and cast capabilities hurts.

Umm, you have it mostly covered but:

Ji-Kun: Downdraft says hi. As a full time main platform operator, I'm constantly moving to different pools to soak them up and jumping down to nests to grab extra feathers when mine wear off.

Dark Animus: With our strat we hold onto a small robot while our tanks grab them off, I basically don't need to move at all for this fight.

Iron Qon: Dodging spear fissures is highly necessary. Maintaining distance from other members with the lightning debuff, very big deal in 25 man with less overall space. Collapsing for 1st phase.

Twins: I don't know about you, but I run away from the things that make me go sleepy. If the chick comes out of the shadows and puts an ice chunk on you to knock you back it's nice, especially if you were winding up a Chaos Bolt with buffs running as Destruction. You need to move away from fire spinny chick when she comes out.

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It's going to make up more than a 1% DPS change when you go from moving and casting to not being able to do so. The moving default spell for Affliction is Fel Flame. Fel Flame just doesn't even come close to comparing to the damage Malefic Grasp or Drain Soul. If you're moving as Affliction, there goes your DPS. This is mostly because they tied the spec into a drain mechanic. At least if the filler remained Shadowbolt, we'd not see such a big drop off. Regardless, with the current design, losing the ability to move and DPS will crush Affliction in heavy movement fights.

One of the blue posts mentioned that they are looking at how Fel Flame interacts with DoTs. This could very well mean that the only thing that will change is that it doesn't snapshot anymore. For affliction it would be interesting if instead of snapshotting your dots, it had a MG or DS mechanic where it would cause active dots to tick for a certain percentage of their damage, and still extend by a certain amount. If they are basing Aff's playstyle around DoTs and drain mechanics then fel flame is just a weird spell to have as it stands and seeing as how rarely it is used already, something needs to change there. I'm actually surprised there isn't a Soulburn +Fel Flame interaction already. Not sure what that would be, but it is a missed opportunity I would think.

It will be interesting to see what they come out with as time goes on here. Haunt, changed to allow casting+moving, future fel flame update...more than minor changes mid xpac for affliction. Likely means changes are coming for destruction I would imagine, unless they are specifically trying to screw gahhda over Posted Image. Would be interesting to see incinerate be allowed to be cast while moving with CBs be forced to be cast while remaining still.

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-But destruction will be useless!

-Don't worry, you can now cast haunt while moving!

gg, I suppose I'll reroll hunter, don't want to do the legendary quest line again, but...

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