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Which stat is best for Blood (balance) ?

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Hello and sorry for my bad English,

I'm playing Blood DK as type of balanced between tank and damage, and follow the guide here when chosing the stat: str > hast > crit > mas, and it's so great when doing quest or anything else, can solo almost everything with more than 4 mobs, but i feel like a paper when doing dungeon, especially in Mythic. im following the information from Pawn to decide which item to use (if an item give a +5% better than the current, i will use it).

- my current ilv is 838 with some epic item from WQ only.

- my artifact trait is following the damage line as IcyVein guide.

below is my stat, can you give some advise which stat need to improve ? and can you please sharing your "best in your opinion" %stat of your Blood DK ? 

many thanks

 

 

Screenshot_20160927-191301.png

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For balanced build you want to have a bit more crit. Haste wise you are close to 20% which is a fair soft cap. So stat wise you appear to be going pretty good. I might aim for a bit more mastery for raw survival and crit for balanced survival dps. Self simming via mr robot and that can give some guidance based upon your gear.

However, another issue may just be rotation. When first entering mythic your blood shields will get shredded easily. Part of blood tanking is you will be using your defensive CDs a lot, with red thirst I use vampiric blood almost on cooldown. I make heavy use of DRW on bigger pack pulls. In addition if struggling on trash pulls you may want to invest in bonestorm, its a good aoe talent and does some healing. So your stats seem fine i think it may be more a rotation talent situation. I follow the icy guide here basically to the T minus the last tier, purgatory is a little weak and costly in 5 mans, so i go with blood mirror for bosses, and if there is a ton of trash, bonestorm

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Blood shield is pretty meh atm so as Demon suggests, you will be using VB alot more. If talented it does come back rapidly enough. Funnily enough, trash wrecks more tanks than bosses. Odd but true. 

 

Dont be afraid to kite the packs as well, drop D+D and step back until your at the back edge of it, they will be slowed by 70% if talented and that 1-2 seconds give  you a chance for rune regen and for your healer to top you up a bit.  Its not alot but every bit does help. Try to bank some RP too, rather than spending it all the time. There will be gaps in your rotation and if your sitting on 80% health and 50 RP, dont Death Strike, wait till your health dips a bit more. 

 

On a side note, I wish Mastery improved the Blood Shield a bit more, even stacking mastery wont make it useful enough to take much of a hit. Yes, ofc it does take some of the hit which is nice. You also gain leech when its up but I find it pops so quickly that its not worth worrying about. 

More crit is good if you have the sketal shattering talent from your weapon and its good for parry too. 

 

Good luck with it and have fun, thats the important part.

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31 minutes ago, Shells said:

Blood shield is pretty meh atm so as Demon suggests, you will be using VB alot more. If talented it does come back rapidly enough. Funnily enough, trash wrecks more tanks than bosses. Odd but true. 

 

Dont be afraid to kite the packs as well, drop D+D and step back until your at the back edge of it, they will be slowed by 70% if talented and that 1-2 seconds give  you a chance for rune regen and for your healer to top you up a bit.  Its not alot but every bit does help. Try to bank some RP too, rather than spending it all the time. There will be gaps in your rotation and if your sitting on 80% health and 50 RP, dont Death Strike, wait till your health dips a bit more. 

 

On a side note, I wish Mastery improved the Blood Shield a bit more, even stacking mastery wont make it useful enough to take much of a hit. Yes, ofc it does take some of the hit which is nice. You also gain leech when its up but I find it pops so quickly that its not worth worrying about. 

More crit is good if you have the sketal shattering talent from your weapon and its good for parry too. 

 

Good luck with it and have fun, thats the important part.

Shells reminded me of something. 

For mythics I consider Tremble before me a mandatory talent, actually frankly I always use it. It gives DnD a chance to cause the enemies to cower in fear, think of it as an aoe stun. The beauty of it is that its basically guaranteed to work at least once, each tick if they aren't feared by it the chance increases for the next tick. It's just really really useful for those few seconds without damage and will often fear that one add no one is attacking. 

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15 hours ago, demonardvark said:

Shells reminded me of something. 

For mythics I consider Tremble before me a mandatory talent, actually frankly I always use it. It gives DnD a chance to cause the enemies to cower in fear, think of it as an aoe stun. The beauty of it is that its basically guaranteed to work at least once, each tick if they aren't feared by it the chance increases for the next tick. It's just really really useful for those few seconds without damage and will often fear that one add no one is attacking. 

I thought that that had been nerfed in a previous "balance" pass a few weeks ago to be alot less likely to trigger?

Could be wrong ofc, would be great if it did work. Still, I would rather have the guaranteed 70% reduction in movement for the adds in my D+D and the reduced CD on grasp than a skill that might work and will be broken by damage.  All depends on how you use it really, if you drop d+D when they are on top of you and then dont use it to kite them, even slightly then you might get more mileage from the other talent. 

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17 hours ago, demonardvark said:

I might aim for a bit more mastery for raw survival and crit for balanced survival dps.

I have been wondering about this alot.

sure mastery gives good survivability through shield and leech if one has the artifact trait, but i dont understand crit doesnt have more value.

mind you crit only gives more value in my eyes once you have the skeletal shattering artifact trait.
Crit gives:

  • more parry, DK's only from of avoidence, no block and low dodge.
  • critical boneshield blocks, which also mitigates damage.


Mastery gives:

  • a shield for a % of the damage you healed. which is around 20-30% of max hp if timed right.

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The DR on parry kick in pretty quickly alas. 

 

Also, while the golden trait for critical boneshields sounds great, assuming 20% crit, thats a 1in 5 chance that a BS will absorb another 8% damage. While this would be great if it was on a big hit, if you have a dot or an add hitting you using that "superpowered" BS on so its sorta meh. 

Due to the nerf to Bone Shield, an additional 8% on top of 16% is not as impactful as it could be. 

 

I dont get our other gold artifact at all, when VB ends you get a shield equal to the amount of damage your disease ticks for. As the disease is only ticking for small damage the only place this is great is when your tanking lots of adds. Unless I'm missing something. 

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Well if you go for crit its quite easy to get 25% ish meaning every 4th attack is reduced by 24% compared to the 16%, this feels great for tanking in raids when the bosses feel like slapping you around, add parry at around 20% to this and the slim dodge chance we have and we are looking at somthing thats nearing decent mitigation.

esp is there is a soft cap on haste.

 

now about the golden traits il agree they seem very odd, i havent tried the VB one yet so i dont know the numbers on it, but like you said i cant imagine they are massive.

The bloodshield one seems utter useless in raids as any hit removes the bloodshield with one hit rendering it useless, unless you can quickly deathstrike multiple times in a row, but then you would have needed to be quite low on health.

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The vampiric blood golden trait assumes worst case scenario tanking, it has one combo but its not practical to use it. It's basically assuming you are using vampiric blood and DRW at the same time. With DRW up you can get the second stack of blood plague going and with the blood plague increase talent, its meant to give you a decent bonus shield. It's sort of odd to use it that way but it makes a decent oh crap button i suppose. Even then using VB on cooldown its just meant to further help smoothen out the damage.

Blood shield isn't quite what it used to be. Even with our toolkit we end up taking quite a few hits to the fact. The artifact abilities and that are meant to provide a gradual smoothing effect to that. Think in a way almost brewmaster monk but instead of staggering it into a dot we more gradually reduce more. That's what blood shields effect is really doing. It's more to reduce the flow of constant damage instead of just outright mitigate it. So, the optimal blood performance if you will is a smaller constant damage intake versus huge damage spikes. It's not quite how we played at all in the past, however, we are still very sturdy, its just we will still take a couple full powered hits to the face. 

Also tremble before me used to proc like crazy, on the average mob pack i can get 2 ish fears off. My group has no real stuns so its a life saver and just helps keep pressure off me. We also have a 2nd dk in my 5 mans so he has a grip that i utilize quite a bit. So, I just like tremble because on everything thats not a boss you are guaranteed at least one 2-4 second break to either recharge runes or build up boneshields what have you, it just gives me some breathing room. So i'm a big fan of it. 

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17 minutes ago, demonardvark said:

its just we will still take a couple full powered hits to the face.

thats where the healing effect of deathstrike comes in i guees xD

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41 minutes ago, Desruc said:

thats where the healing effect of deathstrike comes in i guees xD

honestly thats what a lot of people are saying, that, you basically conserve runic power until your health drops and death strike spam, making sure you have enough runic power for AM striking, but yeah lol thats basically it. 

FOUL BEAST I SHALL SLAY YOU!!!

*get his for 10 million health*

FOUL BEAST i SHALL HEAL MYSELF!!!!

*get hit for another 10 mill*

AND I SHALL HEAL MYSELF SO MORE!!!, i WILL SHIELD MY ALLIES WITH MY FACE!!!!!!!!

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3 minutes ago, demonardvark said:

FOUL BEAST I SHALL SLAY YOU!!!

*get his for 10 million health*

FOUL BEAST i SHALL HEAL MYSELF!!!!

*get hit for another 10 mill*

AND I SHALL HEAL MYSELF SO MORE!!!, i WILL SHIELD MY ALLIES WITH MY FACE!!!!!!!!

holy shit that was worth a good ol giggle :D..

and its the truth at that.

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It really is, I need to get out of my bad habit of having run out of runes for a few seconds, using a DS just cos. 

Better to keep it capped or near capped than to not have it when I do take a full slap to the chops.

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Im glad i found this thread.

One question though.  It is mentioned that 20% is a haste soft cap, and I have to say its pretty easy to obtain with 840ish gear.  If the benefits of mastery are generally not that great and a DR on parry (crit strike), where does that leave us?

I currently have 40% mastery and honestly I agree, I don't see much of a benefit to going beyond that at the expense of haste and/or crit.  My current plan is to replace Crit/Mastery gear with Haste/Crit gear while maintaining that 40% mastery, but then I start hitting soft caps and DRs...

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This is the only thread that touches on a haste cap that Ive found. Is there a point at which we should stop chasing haste and look at crit as our primary stat?

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1 hour ago, Goblinn said:

This is the only thread that touches on a haste cap that Ive found. Is there a point at which we should stop chasing haste and look at crit as our primary stat?

You search long enough and you'll find a mention of a haste soft cap here and there, but no definitive answer.  I do believe that other sources have said 20% as well.  I don't know what factors into that either; If its a DR or soft breakpoint where crit becomes more valuable by comparison.

 

I do know that I had a haste buff the other day that was glorious (as far as not having to wait for runes or power) and checked the character screen while it was active.  It was 34%.  Question is, how much do you have to lose to get there with gear alone.

 

Im thinking right now that as I get gear upgrades, keeping mastery at about 35-40%, crit at about 20-25% and slowly building haste.. Of course, i am not expert nor have I confirmed this through sims.

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I've reviewed some of the top tanking BDK players on Warcraftlogs and for the most part they all seem to stack haste, even past 20%. I sit at 30% haste before Bone Shield. It's really hard to tell though as BDK simply doesn't have a player base for the logs to be of much use at this time. I guess time will tell. Thanks for the quick reply.

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6 hours ago, Goblinn said:

I've reviewed some of the top tanking BDK players on Warcraftlogs and for the most part they all seem to stack haste, even past 20%. I sit at 30% haste before Bone Shield. It's really hard to tell though as BDK simply doesn't have a player base for the logs to be of much use at this time. I guess time will tell. Thanks for the quick reply.

Thats a really smart move.  Thanks for the info.

Demonsteel _______ of the Fireflash it is.

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blood is complicated right now because there is no true "stack one stat and gg" you need a strong variety of stats. However, all of them suffer diminishing returns. So after 40 some percent mastery you really won't see huge strength increases in your blood shield. Crit does help out parry but again diminishes and haste suffers the same. 

Of all of them though, even if getting a little bit less the extra rune flow from haste will likely make blood tanking easier. Not necessarily stronger, but with more to play with there are less take hits to the face time. So, i think for blood it will end up being sort of a checklist. so

-haste soft cap to 20%

-Mastery soft cap around 40%

-Crit soft cap around 20-25%

-Haste hard cap to ???? %

-Mastery hard cap to ????%

-Crit hard cap to ?????%

so start at top of list and work your way down XD

Just raw investing in haste won't be good enough for blood. Your blood shields at 40% might be frail at mythic + levels but they are dampening damage. Crit increasing parry even by low amounts leaves us around 20% chance to dodge and every 4th attack doing much less damage. So we need a basic shield if you will of mastery and crit, but from there for raw survival I do think the extra resources from haste will be good. However, haste will have a hard break point somewhere, where its worth reinvesting into something else. I don't know where yet, but it will exist. 

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2 hours ago, demonardvark said:

blood is complicated right now because there is no true "stack one stat and gg" you need a strong variety of stats. However, all of them suffer diminishing returns. So after 40 some percent mastery you really won't see huge strength increases in your blood shield. Crit does help out parry but again diminishes and haste suffers the same. 

Of all of them though, even if getting a little bit less the extra rune flow from haste will likely make blood tanking easier. Not necessarily stronger, but with more to play with there are less take hits to the face time. So, i think for blood it will end up being sort of a checklist. so

-haste soft cap to 20%

-Mastery soft cap around 40%

-Crit soft cap around 20-25%

-Haste hard cap to ???? %

-Mastery hard cap to ????%

-Crit hard cap to ?????%

so start at top of list and work your way down XD

Just raw investing in haste won't be good enough for blood. Your blood shields at 40% might be frail at mythic + levels but they are dampening damage. Crit increasing parry even by low amounts leaves us around 20% chance to dodge and every 4th attack doing much less damage. So we need a basic shield if you will of mastery and crit, but from there for raw survival I do think the extra resources from haste will be good. However, haste will have a hard break point somewhere, where its worth reinvesting into something else. I don't know where yet, but it will exist. 

I completely agree on all points.

Id add that from *some* bosses Ive seen in mythic and EN so far, their damage ramps up as the fight goes on.  In the beginning, you are waiting to take damage to DS, but by crunch time you are waiting for Runes and Runic power.  Ursoc for example, with 20% haste, the regen is simply not there at the end if the DPS is less than average.  And if you've already used cool-downs by the end, you're just sitting there getting crushed.  Not a good feeling.

You can get by with 20% though depending on your group.  So thats a solid base.

I think it boils down to this: as you gear up, considering armor of the same ilvl, and upgrades, there is no BiS.  Instead, we have to maintain a ratio. Keeping a decent amount of backup gear (crafted or otherwise) so you can swop in and out as you get new gear with different stats.  For example, if you get an upgraded Warforged legs with Crit/Mast and it replaces legs with haste/mast, you have to find another gear slot (say boots) that you have crit/mast and replace them with a pair of haste/mast boots that you've hopefully saved.  And if any of your stats starts to get high, lets say you mastery starts getting to 42-43%, replace a mastery piece with haste/crit gear.

Crafted gear will help with this, a lot, but it also means Gold and Obliterum.

 

FYI the DK gear types are:

-Fireflash: crit/haste

-Feverflare: haste/mast

-Peerless: crit/mast

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I did some sloppy math on blood shield and I hope im wrong.

Lets say you have 2.9 million health.  Not factoring any damage taken, this means DS heals for a minimum of 290,000.

With mastery at 40%, you'd get a minimum blood shield of 116,000.  With mastery at 35%, a minimum of 101,500.

 

So in total 40% gives you a heal and shield of 406,000; and 35% gives you 391,500.  

That's 14,500 hit points and a 3.5% actual difference. For a 5% mastery.

 

For practical purposes lets say you DS every 5 seconds in a 6 min boss fight.  Thats a *minimum* of around 1 million physical HPs shielded.  Or roughly 1/3 of your total HP.

 

It looks to me like we have some room to play with haste and crit. I certainly wouldn't drop mastery to 20%, but hovering between 35-40%....well i mean, you can see.  You might not even notice it.

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More crappy math lol...

Lets say boss white damage hits you once every 3 seconds for 6 mins.  Thats 120 hits taken.  If crit % = straight parry, then 20% crit = 24 hits parried for 4.8million.  25% parry is 30 hits parried for 6 million (not factoring the extra 8% artifact mitigation), thats 1.2million damage difference for 5%.

 

Comparitively, keep in mind this doesnt factor big boss abilities where your blood shield goes up,  but it seems crit is a tad stronger but a lot choppier as we all know already.

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21 hours ago, Sniz said:

More crappy math lol...

Lets say boss white damage hits you once every 3 seconds for 6 mins.  Thats 120 hits taken.  If crit % = straight parry, then 20% crit = 24 hits parried for 4.8million.  25% parry is 30 hits parried for 6 million (not factoring the extra 8% artifact mitigation), thats 1.2million damage difference for 5%.

 

Comparitively, keep in mind this doesnt factor big boss abilities where your blood shield goes up,  but it seems crit is a tad stronger but a lot choppier as we all know already.

i call it crude math myself, but it usually works most of the time,

In the end I think you hit the nail on the head with a previous post. There is some ratio of increase were you need to make sure all three stats are in some proper proportion, simply because we are reliant on so many stats. The other thing to, that i thought was wrong initially is some heroic blood dks are getting versa as a strong stat, which may be something else we need to consider too. It takes quite a bit to be effective but again for blood every little bit counts. 

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On 30/9/2016 at 2:03 PM, demonardvark said:

It takes quite a bit to be effective but again for blood every little bit counts. 

This is the problem for me with versa..

I can see that it helps both our dmg reduction and slef healing (And damage i guees to some degree).
But from what i have experienced the sheer numbers you need for versa to have any value, mean you have to sacrefice so much else, ultimately costing more then the benefit.

Besides we have nothing that scales with it besides flat number, like haste gives rune regen and crit gives parry AND boneshield absorbtion.

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38 minutes ago, Desruc said:

This is the problem for me with versa..

I can see that it helps both our dmg reduction and slef healing (And damage i guees to some degree).
But from what i have experienced the sheer numbers you need for versa to have any value, mean you have to sacrefice so much else, ultimately costing more then the benefit.

Besides we have nothing that scales with it besides flat number, like haste gives rune regen and crit gives parry AND boneshield absorbtion.

yeah I wouldn't go out of my way to gem or enchant with it but a high vers trinket may be useful to some. however as said it requires a huge investment with little payout. even then the more i play around with it the more I think haste is just 100% the most valuable stat for blood now. 

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