jmaster299

Zevrim's Hunger on Single Target

15 posts in this topic

Not sure how to sim this, otherwise I would, but I am wondering if using the proc from Zevrim's Hunger is worth it or not. From my own best guess, I would think not. It costs 30 Focus for an ability that does a lot less damage than Aimed Shot single target. This is compounded by the fact that when i does proc, it usually procs at least twice in a row. Meaning that when I cast Marked Shot, and it procs to not remove Hunter's Mark, it almost always procs again at least once, allowing 3 Marked Shots in a row. Sometimes more.

Personally I've been not using the procs single target, except on the rare occasion where a proc is available, but Vulnerable is not up and I don't have Windburst or Sidewinders available to apply Vulnerable. Even then I'm not sure if it's a DPS loss using that focus single target.


 

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???

Marked Shot has more damage-per-execute and damage-per-execute-time than Aimed Shot.

Just using the public simcraft as an example: http://www.simulationcraft.org/reports/Raid_T19H.html

In 865 gear and 894 artifact, with 3 relics for Aimed Shot crit chance after Marked Shot, it still puts Marked Shot higher than AiS:

AiS:

DPE: 554k

DPET: 378k

Marked Shot:

DPE: 562k

DPET: 484k

And that's without taking focus costs into account.

So yeah. I dunno how you can something like "not worth using the proc" when Marked Shot is our best direct damage ability, discounting talents and Lock n Load procs.

Edited by Iridar

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How? Because when I use the procs single target my DPS always lags behind what it should, and it's always due to a lack of Aimed Shot casts. Casts I skipped by using the procs from the ring. I'll try to log two identical test pulls, one skipping the extra procs and one not. There will still be a lot of RNG involved, with things like LnL and Windrunners, but it should show what I am seeing in raids. That when my casts of Aimed Shot fall behind, because I'm using that focus on extra Marked Shot, my damage falls off.

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40 minutes ago, jmaster299 said:

How? Because when I use the procs single target my DPS always lags behind what it should, and it's always due to a lack of Aimed Shot casts. Casts I skipped by using the procs from the ring. I'll try to log two identical test pulls, one skipping the extra procs and one not. There will still be a lot of RNG involved, with things like LnL and Windrunners, but it should show what I am seeing in raids. That when my casts of Aimed Shot fall behind, because I'm using that focus on extra Marked Shot, my damage falls off.

Let me put it another way. If we didn't have to deal with Hunter's Mark, and you could always cast Marked Shot instead of Aimed Shot, you would want to do that. Marked Shot is directly superior to Aimed Shot, because it does more damage, costs less and casts faster. 

The only reason we even bother with Aimed Shot is because we don't have the option to always cast Marked Shot. 

Whatever tool you're using to monitor your DPS in game, it cannot possibly be as accurate as simcraft, because it's not susceptible to RNG, as it simulates thousands of battles and averages out the result.

As a sidenote, you've got no business whatsoever staring at your DPS during combat encounter, it just detracts your attention from actually important things. Like, you know, COMBAT.

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15 hours ago, Iridar said:

Let me put it another way. If we didn't have to deal with Hunter's Mark, and you could always cast Marked Shot instead of Aimed Shot, you would want to do that. Marked Shot is directly superior to Aimed Shot, because it does more damage, costs less and casts faster. 

The only reason we even bother with Aimed Shot is because we don't have the option to always cast Marked Shot. 

Whatever tool you're using to monitor your DPS in game, it cannot possibly be as accurate as simcraft, because it's not susceptible to RNG, as it simulates thousands of battles and averages out the result.

As a sidenote, you've got no business whatsoever staring at your DPS during combat encounter, it just detracts your attention from actually important things. Like, you know, COMBAT.

First off, lose the attitude. Second, lose the damn attitude, and finally, don't claim I'm doing something that I'm not doing. I'm not staring at my meters mid fight, I'm analyzing meters and logs AFTER fights, between pulls and days off from raiding. I'm here looking for help, and all you're doing is waiving your doing is spewing your ego all over the place.

Fact, Marked Shot does NOT do more damage than Aimed Shot while Vulnerable is up. And it that issue and that issue only that I am trying to figure out. Sims are not the be all end all for information as no sim accurately reflects real world raiding situations. While they are useful tools, there is no way to accurately sim the question I am putting forth because I can't instruct the sim to ignore the procs from my legendary ring.

So I am left to go by real world results, and on various pulls on fights like Ursoc or Nythendra, both Heroic and Mythic, I've been testing both using and not using the procs from my ring when there is only 1 target available. And on the pulls where I fall behind the other Hunter in my guild, it is always due to me having fewer Aimed Shot casts. Not just hits, this is not a Windrunner issue, but fewer actual casts. Fewer casts that happen because focus is being spent on extra Marked Shot procs. And its easy to determine that due to me having more Marked Shot casts and higher Marked Shot damage in each of those pulls.

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2 hours ago, jmaster299 said:

First off, lose the attitude. Second, lose the damn attitude, and finally, don't claim I'm doing something that I'm not doing. I'm not staring at my meters mid fight, I'm analyzing meters and logs AFTER fights, between pulls and days off from raiding. I'm here looking for help, and all you're doing is waiving your doing is spewing your ego all over the place.

Fact, Marked Shot does NOT do more damage than Aimed Shot while Vulnerable is up. And it that issue and that issue only that I am trying to figure out. Sims are not the be all end all for information as no sim accurately reflects real world raiding situations. While they are useful tools, there is no way to accurately sim the question I am putting forth because I can't instruct the sim to ignore the procs from my legendary ring.

So I am left to go by real world results, and on various pulls on fights like Ursoc or Nythendra, both Heroic and Mythic, I've been testing both using and not using the procs from my ring when there is only 1 target available. And on the pulls where I fall behind the other Hunter in my guild, it is always due to me having fewer Aimed Shot casts. Not just hits, this is not a Windrunner issue, but fewer actual casts. Fewer casts that happen because focus is being spent on extra Marked Shot procs. And its easy to determine that due to me having more Marked Shot casts and higher Marked Shot damage in each of those pulls.

First, you aren't helping here with your attitude either.  Second, YES, Marked Shot DOES do more damage than Aimed Shot does.  Just look at their damage formulas.  Marked ShotMarked Shot vs Aimed ShotAimed Shot.  250% > 215%, and yes, Marked Shot benefits from Vulnerable.  

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7 hours ago, jmaster299 said:

First off, lose the attitude. Second, lose the damn attitude, and finally, don't claim I'm doing something that I'm not doing. I'm not staring at my meters mid fight, I'm analyzing meters and logs AFTER fights, between pulls and days off from raiding. I'm here looking for help, and all you're doing is waiving your doing is spewing your ego all over the place.

Fact, Marked Shot does NOT do more damage than Aimed Shot while Vulnerable is up. And it that issue and that issue only that I am trying to figure out. Sims are not the be all end all for information as no sim accurately reflects real world raiding situations. While they are useful tools, there is no way to accurately sim the question I am putting forth because I can't instruct the sim to ignore the procs from my legendary ring.

So I am left to go by real world results, and on various pulls on fights like Ursoc or Nythendra, both Heroic and Mythic, I've been testing both using and not using the procs from my ring when there is only 1 target available. And on the pulls where I fall behind the other Hunter in my guild, it is always due to me having fewer Aimed Shot casts. Not just hits, this is not a Windrunner issue, but fewer actual casts. Fewer casts that happen because focus is being spent on extra Marked Shot procs. And its easy to determine that due to me having more Marked Shot casts and higher Marked Shot damage in each of those pulls.

What is this I don't even...

You came for help and you're getting it. You can either listen to what we have to say or throw tantrums, your choice.

I apologize for the assumption that you stare at DPS meters during combat. It's an affliction of many bad players. 

I assumed you're bad, because a decent player would know that Marked Shot does more damage than AiS and is generally a superior shot.

A decent player wouldn't ask if it's worth using the Zevrim's proc, because the answer to that question is too obvious.

Now, I do wanna help. So a friendly suggestion: do a fact check before you throw the word "fact" around. Look at the numbers Orthios and I linked, take a look at artifact traits that affect AiS and MS damage. Check out Azor's hunter guide, especially the shot priority section. And you'll realize the simple truth.

Are you, by any chance, using Marked Shot when Vulnerable isn't up? I.e., to proc Vulnerable? That would explain why it does less damage for you, but it's a mistake and a huge DPS loss. You absolutely want every MS to be affected by Vulnerable.

Edited by Iridar

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16 hours ago, Iridar said:

What is this I don't even...

You came for help and you're getting it. You can either listen to what we have to say or throw tantrums, your choice.

I apologize for the assumption that you stare at DPS meters during combat. It's an affliction of many bad players. 

I assumed you're bad, because a decent player would know that Marked Shot does more damage than AiS and is generally a superior shot.

A decent player wouldn't ask if it's worth using the Zevrim's proc, because the answer to that question is too obvious.

Now, I do wanna help. So a friendly suggestion: do a fact check before you throw the word "fact" around. Look at the numbers Orthios and I linked, take a look at artifact traits that affect AiS and MS damage. Check out Azor's hunter guide, especially the shot priority section. And you'll realize the simple truth.

Are you, by any chance, using Marked Shot when Vulnerable isn't up? I.e., to proc Vulnerable? That would explain why it does less damage for you, but it's a mistake and a huge DPS loss. You absolutely want every MS to be affected by Vulnerable.

No, I came here for help and got nothing but your ego. Not only that, but your math is horribly wrong too. Stop wasting my time with your replies.

Edited by jmaster299

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27 minutes ago, jmaster299 said:

No, I came here for help and got nothing but your ego. Not only that, but your math is horribly wrong too. Stop wasting my time with your replies.

Regardless of both of your attitudes, his math is not wrong, and it's not like you've given us anything to work with yourself.  Marked Shot does more damage than Aimed Shot, and that is a fact.  Unless you can prove that Marked Shot's 250% physical damage is less than Aimed Shot's 215% physical damage, that is.  

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Calm down guys.

On paper Marked Shot does more damage than Aimed Shot. What Iridar and Orthios forgot about is a golden trait from our Artifact Weapon called "Legacy of the Windrunner"...

So Aimed Shot CAN do more damage per execution. Shown here:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/T923pHFj6Mq1Jmcz#fight=2&type=damage-done&source=7

561,4k AiS vs. 492k MS. I'm at 99% perfection for my ilvl in this fight so I assume I can handle our rotation kind of well.

The damage per execution time however still is higher on Marked Shot. Same applies for damage per focus spend.

@jmaster299 is it possible you don't make use of the leg-proc by simply using it the wrong way? Try to see it as you don't cast Marked Shot instead of Aimed Shot but instead of Sidewinders! You're not losing any AiS because the uptime of Vulnerable gets a gain. This simply means you cast AiS later and not less - but a few more MS.

Try this:

[Midfight] (Marking Targets procs) Sidewinders > AiS > MS (Ring procs) > AiS > MS > focus builds into another > AiS

Edited by Tizid
my english is bad sometimes

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7 hours ago, jmaster299 said:

No, I came here for help and got nothing but your ego. Not only that, but your math is horribly wrong too. Stop wasting my time with your replies.

85b7572592434c69586792a570a5ec4f.jpg

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3 hours ago, Tizid said:

On paper Marked Shot does more damage than Aimed Shot. What Iridar and Orthios forgot about is a golden trait from our Artifact Weapon called "Legacy of the Windrunner"...

So Aimed Shot CAN do more damage per execution. Shown here:

Not really forgotten, just chose to ignore it. Marked Shot gets artifact traits as well, and as you pointed out, even without those traits Marked Shot will still be superior to AiS, if not with DPE, then with DPET or at the very least DPET per focus cost.

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23 hours ago, Iridar said:

85b7572592434c69586792a570a5ec4f.jpg

 

Hardly, smarter people than  you, such as Azortharion, put a priority on Aimed Shot over Marked Shot. This is copied directly from the MM guide on this very website

  1. Cast Marked Shot Icon Marked Shot when it is available, but only if you will not be able to cast another Aimed Shot Icon Aimed Shot before the currently active Vulnerable Icon Vulnerable debuff expires, and still be able to land a Marked Shot before Vulnerable expires, or if Vulnerable is not present on the target already. If you are fighting multiple enemies that are about to die, you should prioritize getting Marked Shot Icon Marked Shot cast before any of them are killed off. It is extremely important to ensure that Marked Shot hits the target before Vulnerable expires.


That right there says you are wrong, that you do not cast Marked Shot if you can otherwise cast another Aimed Shot while Vulnerable is up. Nothing you have said changes what is stated directly in the guide that these forums are all about. And before you try quoting the "Simplified Single-Target Rotation", it's stated point blank that it's not the right thing to do. 

While I don't think it changes anything, and my own experience in raids has shown me this, I was simply trying to find out if the legendary ring in any way changes this. You decided to spew your ego all over this thread instead of providing anything close to resembling useful or accurate information.
 

On 10/23/2016 at 5:39 PM, Tizid said:

 

@jmaster299 is it possible you don't make use of the leg-proc by simply using it the wrong way? Try to see it as you don't cast Marked Shot instead of Aimed Shot but instead of Sidewinders! You're not losing any AiS because the uptime of Vulnerable gets a gain. This simply means you cast AiS later and not less - but a few more MS.

Try this:

[Midfight] (Marking Targets procs) Sidewinders > AiS > MS (Ring procs) > AiS > MS > focus builds into another > AiS

That is currently how I use it single target. If I don't have another way to apply Vulnerable to the target, but have an extra proc of MS available due to the ring, I use it to apply Vulnerable so any AiS cast during that period can be cast with Vulnerable up. What I don't do, and what is at issue in this thread, is prioritize MS over AiS in the course of my normal rotation on a single target, due to it's Focus cost reducing the number of AiS I can cast.

Edited by jmaster299

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2 hours ago, jmaster299 said:

 

Hardly, smarter people than  you, such as Azortharion, put a priority on Aimed Shot over Marked Shot. This is copied directly from the MM guide on this very website

  1. Cast Marked Shot Icon Marked Shot when it is available, but only if you will not be able to cast another Aimed Shot Icon Aimed Shot before the currently active Vulnerable Icon Vulnerable debuff expires, and still be able to land a Marked Shot before Vulnerable expires, or if Vulnerable is not present on the target already. If you are fighting multiple enemies that are about to die, you should prioritize getting Marked Shot Icon Marked Shot cast before any of them are killed off. It is extremely important to ensure that Marked Shot hits the target before Vulnerable expires.


That right there says you are wrong, that you do not cast Marked Shot if you can otherwise cast another Aimed Shot while Vulnerable is up. Nothing you have said changes what is stated directly in the guide that these forums are all about. And before you try quoting the "Simplified Single-Target Rotation", it's stated point blank that it's not the right thing to do. 

While I don't think it changes anything, and my own experience in raids has shown me this, I was simply trying to find out if the legendary ring in any way changes this. You decided to spew your ego all over this thread instead of providing anything close to resembling useful or accurate information.

I haven't said anything that would contradict Azor's guide.

The reason you'd cast AiS before MS is to optimize Vulnerable debuff uptime, so you can ultimately cast more AiS into Vulnerable. But that has no effect on the amount of Marked Shots you cast. You still want to cast as many Marked Shots as possible, because it's simply a better shot.

Edited by Iridar

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This thread went radically off the rails a while ago. Warnings are being issued. Thread Locked.

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