Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
Starym

overwatch Jeff Kaplan on "Troll Picks" and Hero Balance

8 posts in this topic

LjvfPjh.jpg

OW's Game Director gives a really good answer to the everlasting balance question.

 

Balance is one of those basically unattainable goals in all games (except for maybe SC1), and Overwatch is no exception. At any point in the game's lifetime some Hero was OP while another was considered a "troll pick" (ok, so it's Hanzo, it's always been Hanzo, it'll always be Hanzo, but you get the idea). Over on the official forums Game Director Jeff Kaplan addressed this ever persisting issue with a very well thought out response to the question "Will the current effort toward hero balance will completely erase or dissipate those "troll" pick?"

Blizzard LogoJeff Kaplan

It's never our intention to have a hero be perceived as a "troll pick", but that will inevitably happen sometimes. Let's say that we all agreed that all of the heroes were perfectly balanced (just pretend with me), even if we touched nothing, eventually the balance would shift over time due to evolving playstyles, strategies and meta-trends. A lot of us like pro sports and tend to think of those games (soccer, football, hockey, basketball) as "timeless". But if you follow those games closely, the leagues have had to make minor tweaks to the games to keep them fun and balanced over time. It's a weird analogy, but it is very similar to hero balance in a game like Overwatch. In those pro sports, players and coaches evolved their ways of thinking about the game that required the game itself to change at times.

We will absolutely do our best to make sure all of our heroes our viable. With so many heroes, I do believe the playerbase will (at times) decide that certain heroes are out of fashion and therefore deem them as "troll picks". Sometimes this will be very valid. And sometimes it will be perception.

Both Torb and Symmetra are being looked at right now. We want to try to improve them in ways that makes them more fun to play, more enjoyable to have on your team and try to make sure they are not infuriating to play against.

We wrestle with the issue that players get very upset at us when they perceive "the meta is stale" and certain heroes are not viable. Yet it's also very disruptive to the playerbase for us to make changes. It's a bit of a Catch-22 but we do our best to responsibly look at all heroes all the time and make sure nothing is terribly unbalanced or worse, un-fun.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So they say "We will try to do this and that about troll picks" everytime, everywhere and it's their answer to any question.

But will this happen? never in my opinion. Dota2 couldn't do it, LoL couldn't do it, even Blizzard couldn't do it in heroes of the storm (Looking at you Murky)

Instead of balancing heroes (which is impossible) they should try to balance the matchmaking, Trolls with Trolls. You wanna pick a hero regardless of the team comp? and you don't even want to communicate? Then you should be at the Troll League playing with your troll friends, go there pick hanzo + bastion + symmetra + torb on attack!! No one cares.

When you see someone pick Hanzo or Bastion or even Torb on attack in plat! and no matter what, the guy doesn't even talk or chat and never changes accordingly, that's where the problem starts. You try to convince your teammates to change heroes but you end up being the A-Hole who's flaming the team and should stfu and just accept the defeat.

 

Edited by mnime

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, mnime said:

So they say "We will try to do this and that about troll picks" everytime, everywhere and it's their answer to any question.

But will this happen? never in my opinion. Dota2 couldn't do it, LoL couldn't do it, even Blizzard couldn't do it in heroes of the storm (Looking at you Murky)

Instead of balancing heroes (which is impossible) they should try to balance the matchmaking, Trolls with Trolls. You wanna pick a hero regardless of the team comp? and you don't even want to communicate? Then you should be at the Troll League playing with your troll friends, go there pick hanzo + bastion + symmetra + torb on attack!! No one cares.

When you see someone pick Hanzo or Bastion or even Torb on attack in plat! and no matter what, the guy doesn't even talk or chat and never changes accordingly, that's where the problem starts. You try to convince your teammates to change heroes but you end up being the A-Hole who's flaming the team and should stfu and just accept the defeat.

Problem is, some picks that are considering trolling can be absolutely superb. It will always depend on the player, as well as the enemy team. I have more problem with people troll picking things such as Winston or Roadhog, for example. When playing KoTH, players will refuse to change from Winston, despite there being a Reaper, Zenyatta, Mei, McCree. 

I don't mind what hero the person picks, as long as it fits the comp and isn't countered hard. I've won games at high Diamond comfortably with a Bastion sitting on the payload, simply because the enemy team won't swap. At the same time, I've lost games miserably with a perfect team setup, if the team was in a vacuum. Instead, my team refuse to swap heroes because "the game is already over, who cares" and our tanks get farmed by Reaper and a Zenyatta. 

I never bother arguing if someone first picks a Torb anymore because I have been proven wrong too many times. I argue when they refuse to swap if it doesn't work.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, mnime said:

Instead of balancing heroes (which is impossible) they should try to balance the matchmaking, Trolls with Trolls. You wanna pick a hero regardless of the team comp? and you don't even want to communicate? Then you should be at the Troll League playing with your troll friends, go there pick hanzo + bastion + symmetra + torb on attack!! No one cares.

The problem with this is that in OW you can't "balance matchmaking" in the sense that you're talking of.  You pick your hero after the matchmaking is done, and also even if you don't agree with it that player might not be picking a "troll pick" in their mind.  To them the hero might be completely viable.  I also don't think that in OW there are any straight up "troll picks".  I have seen way too many people do amazing things with heroes that I didn't think they could do.

3 hours ago, Blainie said:

Problem is, some picks that are considering trolling can be absolutely superb. It will always depend on the player, as well as the enemy team. I have more problem with people troll picking things such as Winston or Roadhog, for example. When playing KoTH, players will refuse to change from Winston, despite there being a Reaper, Zenyatta, Mei, McCree. 

I don't mind what hero the person picks, as long as it fits the comp and isn't countered hard. I've won games at high Diamond comfortably with a Bastion sitting on the payload, simply because the enemy team won't swap. At the same time, I've lost games miserably with a perfect team setup, if the team was in a vacuum. Instead, my team refuse to swap heroes because "the game is already over, who cares" and our tanks get farmed by Reaper and a Zenyatta. 

I never bother arguing if someone first picks a Torb anymore because I have been proven wrong too many times. I argue when they refuse to swap if it doesn't work.

^ This is the truth of it!  It always comes down to player and team comp.  Symmetra and Torbjorn can both do amazing on attack when they are trying to back enemy teams off of a point or escorting the payload.  Sure they aren't typical for that use, but in the right hands from a strategic player.....they are AMAZING.  I personally LOVE Hanzo, and I use him on attack frequently.  He's one of my main heroes and you would be surprised what I can do with him.  However, if my team comp isn't solid enough to sustain while I do my thing then I don't pick him.  Point being: it's all situational.  People have to be fluid which means changing heroes when they aren't working, but also NOT jumping on someone's case immediately because they don't agree with the pick at match start.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Blainie said:

I've won games at high Diamond comfortably with a Bastion sitting on the payload, simply because the enemy team won't swap. At the same time, I've lost games miserably with a perfect team setup, if the team was in a vacuum. Instead, my team refuse to swap heroes because "the game is already over, who cares" and our tanks get farmed by Reaper and a Zenyatta. 

When the comp is not working, change it! that's what makes a team great. But if they don't communicate, you're like "OMG WHY GOD! WHY", maybe they are not troll picking, maybe there isn't a thing called "Troll Pick", but as you said when someone picks Winston when they have reaper and he dies too many times and he refuses to change hero, that's exactly trolling.

 

1 hour ago, ghostdeini said:

However, if my team comp isn't solid enough to sustain while I do my thing then I don't pick him.  Point being: it's all situational.  People have to be fluid which means changing heroes when they aren't working

Now that's true, my main point is when it's not working, change it! I always criticize those who don't communicate at all. 

Winston might work vs a reaper, who knows? maybe the reaper is bad, but when it doesn't, you should change! If you don't listen to your teammates and keep dying, you're trolling.

 

Now I've seen this porblem in all the competitive games that blizzard made so far, people with no basic game knowledge reach high ranks, like in heroes of the storm, ranked games in diamond 1!! I cannot remember how many times I tried to convince someone they should help the objective! Why should someone who don't know the basics reach this level of play? Someone who doesn't change Winston vs a Reaper who's raping him should stay in bronze and keeping this guy in the bronze until he learns things is the matchmaking system's job.

The problem with the matchmaking system is that very few things affect the mmr, we should have a button to report ppl for not cooperating, and many other reports that I see in league of legends but not here, atleast in LoL when you reach diamond you see people who know what they are doing, and this is exactly why, unskilled players lose mmr. This should be the case in any game. But this 50% win rate rule blizzard created is screwing everything, if you're unskilled then you shouldn't have a 50% win rate!

 

Edited by mnime

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, mnime said:

we should have a button to report ppl for not cooperating

Things like this are always interesting to me because I'd love to have them, but they are always open to abuse. I imagine with high enough thresholds (so that a small number of reports can't ruin someone's game), it could work nicely to have different styles and reasons for reporting.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Blainie said:

Things like this are always interesting to me because I'd love to have them, but they are always open to abuse. I imagine with high enough thresholds (so that a small number of reports can't ruin someone's game), it could work nicely to have different styles and reasons for reporting.

Blizzard has like over 4000 employees, they are making billions of dollars every year, they should dedicate a full time team to overcome this. Kinda like what riot games did, there might be ppl who abuse this or get carried away, but there are still Game Masters who check the reports and decide what to do.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/23/2016 at 10:59 AM, mnime said:

Blizzard has like over 4000 employees, they are making billions of dollars every year, they should dedicate a full time team to overcome this. Kinda like what riot games did, there might be ppl who abuse this or get carried away, but there are still Game Masters who check the reports and decide what to do.

Ah, but there's always that big defining factor here! Money spent vs. money gained. Let's be honest, it's just not worth it for them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • Similar Content

    • By Zadina
      Overwatch is about to experience its very first Christmas next week and some primary info on the event has already surfaced.
      The Christmas Spirit will grace the world of Overwatch with its presence next Tuesday the 13th of December, as it was confirmed earlier today on Twitter.
      Placeholder for tweet 806196531795673088 French site JudgeHype has done some digging and has datamined some first details on this upcoming event. First of all, there will be a special Christmas-themed weekly Brawl, while one to three maps will probably feature festive decorations. All heroes will receive a new emote, spray and voice line, as well as one or two skins, emotes and highlight intros. Lastly, Torbjorn is probably getting a Santa skin, along with a respective emote and highlight intro.
      Hopefully we will know more about the even soon! Are you looking forward to it?
    • By Stan
      Blizzard was nominated in several categories in the Game Awards 2016 and Overwatch won two!
      Game of the Year: Overwatch
      Overwatch won the Best Game of the Year award. Other nominees included Titanfall 2, Doom, Inside and  Uncharted 4: A Thief's End.
      Placeholder for tweet 804538964010860544 Best Game Direction: Blizzard (Overwatch)
      The second award for Best Game Direction was won by Blizzard for Overwatch. Other nominees were Dice, Naughty Dog, id Software and Respawn.
      Placeholder for tweet 804532014376361985 Congratulations!
    • By Starym
      The third season of Overwatch competitive play has gone live and brought with it some changes in they way skill rating is calculated, and there was also a smaller patch with just bug fixes deployed earlier today. You can check out both below:
      Blizzard
      BUG FIXES:
      Arcade
      Fixed a bug that prevented Ana from being selected in 1v1 matches
      Heroes
      Fixed a bug that allowed Mercy to receive Ultimate charge when using her Cadueus Staff to increase teammates’ damage when they’re not damaging enemies Fixed a bug preventing Reinhardt from deactivating his Barrier Field after being hacked by Sombra Fixed a bug preventing Sombra’s Hack from cancelling Soldier: 76’s Sprint ability Sombra no longer receives credit toward her on-fire meter when her EMP ultimate hits Symmetra’s turrets When multiple Sombras attempt to hack a health pack, the player that initialized the hack first will now control it Fixed a bug preventing Sombra from seeing practice bots, whose health has fallen below 50%, through the walls on the Practice Range Fixed a bug preventing Sombra’s reticle from consistently expanding while firing her machine pistol  
      Blizzard
      Season 3 has begun! Before you crack your knuckles and kick off your placement matches, here’s a quick overview of what's new in Competitive Play.

      If you’re an avid player, you undoubtedly noticed that Competitive Play wasn’t completely disabled when Season 2 ended last week. Instead, it was replaced with an Off-Season mode, which allows you to continue using the Competitive Play ruleset without your skill rating being affected.

      This gives everyone the freedom to break away from the meta and experiment with new hero combinations and strategies without having to worry about being moved to a lower tier. Players in the Diamond, Master, and Grandmaster tiers can also take a week-long breather and avoid any skill rating decay.
      We’re expecting each off-season to last about seven days, after which everyone will need to complete their placement matches for the new season.

      After giving the Skill Rating system a major overhaul in Season 2, we noticed both the Gold and Platinum tiers were significantly overpopulated. This meant that some players were initially achieving inappropriately high skill ratings and then experiencing a downward adjustment within the first few matches of the season. This also meant that competition within the Gold and Platinum tiers could vary widely from match to match.

      To address these issues, we’ve made some slight adjustments to the Skill Rating system—and, as a result, skill ratings will be more widely distributed across all tiers for Season 3. Many players will be ranked lower than expected after their Season 3 placement matches; however, this should normalize as the season progresses.

      Now that you're up to speed on the latest changes to Competitive Play, it’s time to put your skills to the test! Season 3 is live right now on PC, Xbox One, and PlayStation 4.
      Be sure to follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter for a steady stream of Overwatch information, and we’ll see you on the battlefield.
       
    • By Starym
      The developer update video goes into how Symmetra will be the first OW Hero to have 2 ultimates and also talks more changes coming to her on the PTR soon.
       
      It's time for Game Director Jeff Kaplan to discuss the very long awaited Symmetra changes, coming to the PTR soon. He talks about how situational she currently is, the long amount of time she needs to set up and more.
      But the headline is that she'll be the first OW Hero to have 2 ultimates to choose from at all times. You'll be able to toggle between the current teleporter and a shield generator that puts a substantial shield on all team mates in a large radius, ignoring line of sight. Check out the full video for a more in-depth description as well as other Symmterish topics:
       
    • By Starym
      This one goes straight into the rumor department, but there's a fair amount of evidence and common sense backing it up: Blizzard have posted two jobs in the "unannounced games/projects" section, working on a first person engine.
      This one goes straight into the rumor department, but there's a fair amount of evidence and common sense backing it up: Blizzard have posted two jobs in the "unannounced games/projects" section, working on a first person engine. They have also recently cancelled a large graphic novel that was going to go into the backstory and founding of the Overwatch organization, saying that the story has changed since its inception. The other reason behind it might be because they want to tell that story in an actual separate game, using the Overwatch engine. With the main game being so popular, having so many well liked/loved characters and the animated shorts adding more and more backstory and character to the Heroes, it seems Blizzard may have decided to go full out and make a whole single player experience around it.
      Now, usually these job listings will at least mention the franchise they're related to, even for an unannounced project, so this could still be related to a new IP or even a first person foray into a different franchise (anyone remember Starcraft: Ghost?). In any case, Overwatch seems to be the perfect candidate, especially since Blizzard had already said there will probably be an Overwatch 2.
      Blizzard job opportunities
      Lead Software Engineer, Engine
      Unannounced Games/Projects Blizzard Entertainment is seeking an experienced engine engineer to work on a robust first-person engine for an unannounced project. The ideal applicant has demonstrated ability to lead a team of engineers to success, has a vision for how a scalable, performant and technically excellent engine should be built, and has a passion for adopting state of the art rendering technology to implement visually stunning games.
      Pluses
      Previous experience working on first-person or other action-oriented games.   (Full listing)
      Lead Software Engineer, Tools
      Unannounced Games/Projects
      Blizzard Entertainment is seeking an experienced tools engineer to work on an unannounced project that utilizes a robust first-person engine. The ideal applicant has demonstrated ability to lead a team of engineers to success, has a vision for how tools should be built, and has an unwavering passion for developing content creation tools.
      Pluses Previous experience working on first-person or other action-oriented games.   (Full listing)