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Ketchup

860 Fire Mage w/ Some Questions

19 posts in this topic

I have been raiding on this mage since Legion started and I am new to the class. I am currently having some issues pulling the numbers I should be pulling. I am going to be posting some logs and if anyone could assist me in any way that would be amazing. I feel like I have a good grasp of the class but when a fellow member of my guild looked at my logs compared to other mages around my ilvl he noticed my fireball was critting 20% less and IDK why. I would gladly give anyone more information if they need it but iff there is anything anyone can think of to help me out that would awesome. Thanks!

 

My name is Ketchup on the logs and I am an Orc Fire mage from the server Area 52

 

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/GTaQYB2PD87AF1Kn/#fight=11&type=damage-done

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I'm still learning myself here so I'm not an expert, but IMO:

1. It looks like you maybe sacrificing Crit for iLvl. I'm 15 points behind you in iLvl and have more Crit.

2. For single target I've been stacking haste, as recommended on this forum and other resources. I see lots of versatility and mastery in  your gear. I see you had 55 casts of Pyro and 48 of FB, on my last attempt on Ursoc, scaled to match your kill timer, I had 66 Pyros and 65 FB

3. Your rotation seems fine to me.

 

Edited by Linkage

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I appreciate the info. I always do try to use gear that has the most crit over ilvl most of the time. I am wondering if my trinkets are at all an issue also? I currently have twisting wind and wriggling sinew but I had the shock baton but got rid of it (stupidly). When i compared myself to other mages with similar crit, I am still not critting as much as they are on fireball.

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I cannot even find your character.  Link your armory please.

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Some basic things first.  Unless you are using AoE on a boss fight, there is little reason to bring Living Bomb.  It takes time to cast that could otherwise be used on Fireballs to proc Heating Up.

You've got some extra mastery where you could be picking up more crit.  You idealy want 55% or more.  The target is around 59%.

If you have not already, pickup the Devilsaur Shock Baton as your secondary trinket.  Should be using Wiggling Sinew and Shock Baton.

 

Someone said earlier that your rotation is fine, I say it's not.  You are wasting your Combustion at the beginning of the fight without already being in a Hot Streak.

 

Openers are key, if you have a crap opener and you waste your ROP+Combustion, you have to wait another 2 minutes to fix it.  By then your DPS has already taken a huge hit.

 

Openers should be pre-potting Deadly Graces, followed by a pyro wind up at 4.5 seconds.  Follow that with a Fireball and hopefully proc a hot streak.  If not, continue until you do get one.  Soon as you have a hot streak, ROP+Combustion and use any on use Wiggling Sinew.  Go into as many instant pyros you can with Fireblast + Flame on and PF.

 

Then go into Pyro Fishing rotation.  Which is casting Fireball and using Fireblast to get a pyro, casting another fireball and then spending that hot streak pyro as soon as you finish casting fireball.  This hopefully results in a new Hot Streak, in which you'd cast another fireball then immediately send the pyro.  If not, Fireblast on a heating up and rinse/repeat.

 

Combustion is on a 2 minute CD.  After you use your first ROP+ Combustion you can squeeze in 3 more ROP before Combustion is up.  The 4th re-charge on ROP will finish just as Combustion is coming off CD.  That assumes you place ROP down immediately on re-charge.  You can get 3 in, just remember that, that's 50% extra damage each time.

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1 hour ago, Thazi said:

Openers should be pre-potting Deadly Graces, followed by a pyro wind up at 4.5 seconds.  Follow that with a Fireball and hopefully proc a hot streak. 

I don't really agree on that. Imo it's better to start the fight with:

PrePot->Fireball->RoP->PF->Comb->Pyro/FB(if first fireball didn't crit)->normal burst.

4.5sec for a hardcast Pyro is a lot of time, that you're losing of the pot.

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Thanks for the detailed response Thazi. I will work on these tips and let u know if they have improved my numbers. :) Also i am trying to get my shock baton back lol 

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1 minute ago, Lily said:

I don't really agree on that. Imo it's better to start the fight with:

PrePot->Fireball->RoP->PF->Comb->Pyro/FB(if first fireball didn't crit)->normal burst.

4.5sec for a hardcast Pyro is a lot of time, that you're losing of the pot.

You obviously don't understand what an opener for a mage is then.  You hard cast a pyro before the pull.  4.5 seconds BEFORE the pull happens.  That way when the pull does happen, the pyro is already hitting the target and hopefully popping a heating up proc.

 

Regarding the pre-pot, you can save it, and hopefully be able to use it before the pull after your pyro hits, but you probably won't be able to.  Thus you truly aren't wasting it.

You get an extra 5 seconds on the pot for being ranged.  For the opener, this is leeway.  The second time you pot, you get a full 30 seconds.

Edited by Thazi

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Just now, Thazi said:

4.5 seconds BEFORE the pull happens.

Got that, but you're using your first Deadly Grace before the Pyro, so you don't have the chance to profit from it for this time :)

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Just now, Lily said:

Got that, but you're using your first Deadly Grace before the Pyro, so you don't have the chance to profit from it for this time :)

Lily, think about it for one moment please.

If you are hardcasting a pyro 4.5 seconds before the pull, it takes 4.5 seconds to cast, and as soon as the pyro casts you are in combat.  You cannot pre-pot after that, can you?

Mage opener is a 4.5 second pre-cast of Pyro before the pull.  You need to pre-pot.  Therefore you waste the EXTRA 5 seconds you get on a pot to pre-pot prior to starting your pyro cast.  This allows you to pre-pot and still use another potion later on.

 

As per the Icy Veins Guide:

 

. Opening Sequence

  1. Use Potion of Deadly Grace IconPotion of Deadly Grace.
  2. Pre-cast Pyroblast IconPyroblast at 4.5 seconds on the countdown.
  3. Cast Fireball IconFireball.
  4. Cast Fire Blast IconFire Blast when Heating Up IconHeating Up activates.

 

So it's fine if you don't agree with me.  That's what the guide says, and that's what most mages do.

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1 minute ago, Thazi said:

If you are hardcasting a pyro 4.5 seconds before the pull, it takes 4.5 seconds to cast, and as soon as the pyro casts you are in combat.  You cannot pre-pot after that, can you?

I think you're not getting my point...

It's not about the order of the pot and spells. I just wanted to mention that I am (and Lexi from Method as well) casting a Fireball as pre-cast before the pull (~1.5sec) instead of a Pyro, to fit more spells in the duration of the first Deadly Grace.

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3 minutes ago, Lily said:

I think you're not getting my point...

It's not about the order of the pot and spells. I just wanted to mention that I am (and Lexi from Method as well) casting a Fireball as pre-cast before the pull (~1.5sec) instead of a Pyro, to fit more spells in the duration of the first Deadly Grace.

 

And what you're not understanding is that Fireball is a 2.2 second cast.  You're still wasting 2.2 seconds of the extra 5 seconds you get.  You need to consider Deadly Graces is a 25 second pot.  You CAN get an extra 5 seconds by being ranged, but you can also screw that up very easily.

You also need to consider that deadly graces isn't a guaranteed proc per cast.  Those extra 2.3 seconds aren't guaranteed to proc.  Nor are the 4.5 from a pyro.

 

As long as you are getting the 25 seconds out of it, you are getting the maximum out of the potion.  During a burn phase when you have a full 30 seconds with it, you MAY get 1 extra proc from Deadly Graces.  It's not a huge game changer than getting 25 seconds.  It's negligible .

 

Therefore the damage you would have gotten from the extra proc that may never happen during the 4.5 seconds of the hardcastes pyro would be negated by the pure damage that pyro provides over a Fireball.

 

Compare the damage that Deadly Graces does.  Then compare Fireball and Pyro.

 

Fireballs do roughly 60~80k per.  Pyros do  150k to 250k.  Most of my Pyros are over 230k.  So if you take deadly graces, which I think average about 150k each, and add lets be generous and say we add 80k to that, it is 230k damage.  Now, let's assume deadly graces refuses to proc, which is very likely in those 2.2 seconds.  You're stuck with 80k, where my pyro did 230k.

 

The potion supplements your damage.  You should supplement with the most damage possible.  Substituting Pyro for Fireball is only hurting your dps.

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That point goes to you. Thanks for enlighten me on that :) *applause*

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39 minutes ago, Lily said:

That point goes to you. Thanks for enlighten me on that :) *applause*

Don't just give me the point because you dont want to argue it now =P.  If you think I'm wrong, prove it so I can see it.  If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, and I don't like being wrong.  So help me correct myself if so!

 

But if not, thanks!

Edited by Thazi

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I am pretty sure that Lily was initially right, especially if you have the sinew trinket. It's just not worth hardcasting that pyroblast and losing 4 secs of the pot. I don't have proof other than the Lexi video (mentioned by Lily as well) and personal experience.

Btw, as to the OP's original question, I think you can change the Twisting Wind trinket (or whatever the name is); it's pretty bad. Other than that, you gear looks great to me.

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53 minutes ago, Zadina said:

I am pretty sure that Lily was initially right, especially if you have the sinew trinket. It's just not worth hardcasting that pyroblast and losing 4 secs of the pot. I don't have proof other than the Lexi video (mentioned by Lily as well) and personal experience.

Btw, as to the OP's original question, I think you can change the Twisting Wind trinket (or whatever the name is); it's pretty bad. Other than that, you gear looks great to me.

Can you show me this video please?

 

If you do the math, the difference between the 2.2 second Fireball and the 4.5 second Pyro is 2.3 seconds.  Within that time frame, the chances of it procing more than once are pretty slim.  That being said, consider the damage output.  Want to gamble on getting more than 1 proc, or not getting any at all?  Difference can be anywhere from 150k more damage over a pyro cast, so let's say 80+150+80+150 = 460k damage, to as little at 190k less than a pyro due no zero procs.  Can it be better?  If you're lucky yes.  That is assuming each of your fireballs are doing 80k+ and each of your procs are 150k+. 

 

Don't forget to consider that the potion is literally a 25 second potion.  We get a 5 second bonus for being ranged.  Those 5 seconds aren't a lot and you aren't going to get a lot of procs out of it unless you're in a fast paced instant cast scenario like a burn phase.  I'd argue that the math points that the 4.5 seconds you're winding up a pyro are wasted period, regardless of fireball or pyro in this phase as we are not in a combustion burn.

 

I don't use my 2nd potion until we are ready for hero, or if it's already used that I am ready to go into a combustion burn again.  This helps get the most out of the potion as the number of casts are significantly more than hard casting ANY spell.

Now that this is being talked about, has this been discussed before in another thread?  If so can you link it.  If not, maybe I will start a thread.  If I am wrong, I want to know.  If I am also wrong, this means the Icy Veins guide is wrong.  So I think this is a pretty big thing to be discussed right?

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Lexi's video is here. Also, I found this on Reddit yesterday, which should help the OP as well, since with his gear his burst opener should be better. I could search for logs as well, but I am extremely lazy :p I will let Furty/Blainie know about possibly correcting the guide, as I saw that Altered Time also suggests Fireball with pre-potting and my guess is that there are other videos and sites that suggest a similar course of action. I am not a theorycrafter to explain to you why this is better: as I said, I am of the opinion that these extra seconds on the pot matter. I don't have the maths or the numbers, just what I've read around and what I've seen from personal experience.

May I just say how much I hate Deadly Grace and I'm glad to see it gone with the new potion in 7.1. One of my more theoretically inclined and tryhard guildies (since I'm in a casual raiding guild, so those of us who try to maximise our performance are just tryharders hehe) had done countless tests with his DK on dummies and he had come to the conclusion that the WoD potion might just be better than Old War. I hate the RNG the Legion pots had. Edit: Although the new potion might actually not be better than Deadly Grace fml.

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