Shine

Fistweaving, yes or no?

25 posts in this topic

So, I have this mistweaver monk, and I have been using a variety of mist and fistweaving. This is however only in a 5man setting so far.

since I am now ready to start the LFR's and starting to grind gear, I like to go ahead of myself and ask this question.

is it or is it not considerable to prefer fistweaving in raidsetting.

I personally like the style way better, it gives me the feeling of doing more than just casting heals.

You can consider me a very experienced player with the exception of this particular class.

I saw somewhere (I beleive on these forums, tho I dont remember where) that fistweaving is very mana intensive but will bring results if done properly.

Now I'm pretty much only interested in fistweaving for now, so if it's really not advised I will keep my monk on hold or respec it to DPS.

Now,

  • If I were to fistweave, what would the advise for gearing be (Stat priority and Caps).

  • What should my rotation roughly look like.

  • what are my means of burst healing, and what cooldowns should be used mostly.

  • What benefits do I gain by it, and what benefits might I lose.
I really hope this is something worth doing, since I dont really like the mistweaving style in itself. for 5 man a balance can be found between the two and I'm quite fine with that, but I assume this is a tad harder for raid setting.

When answering, please keep in mind I do both 10m and 25m raiding with my guild, but the 10man is of more import and out main progression team. (Wich we want to strengthen with a healer monk.)

Hoping for some juicy, nom-able info.

Shine

Edited by Shine

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Normally, if you just start out, you would want to mistweave a lot more than fistweave until you got comfortable with your mana management, but I'm not opposed to learning it from the start as long as you don't screw over your mana.

Fistweaving is not a style you do "full time". If you fistweave for an entire progression fight, you WILL find yourself OOM very quickly. It is a balance to your mistweaving when there is downtime and most times when you are utilizing it, you can seamlessly without thinking transitions between the two styles based on raid damage.

Your stats do not change, nor does any caps or any cooldown usages from mistweaving. The only thing that changes when you start to fistweave is the usage of your soothing mists and your jab. Your cooldown and burst healing does not change, other than you have an instant surging mists, which is pretty insignificant unless you are specifically building it up for something.

The benefits of fistweaving are, obviously, you do more damage and you add to the raids overall DPS, on top of doing smart healing in low damage situations. The downside is mainly mana management, but when played correctly and not excessively it can be managed just fine.

We detailed fistweaving here, but I am considering making a new guide to it since we wrote that at the beginning of the tier and it could use a few modifications/clarifications. Specifically I over compensated how much you had to commit to fistweaving to make it viable and its pretty easy to switch back and forth with uplifts. The only limiter is the Muscle Memory procs.

The main thing you should know is that you do not want to overwrite or not use a muscle memory proc. The only exception to this is the MM procs from Spinning Crane Kick, with that you can continue to spam it and over write procs because most times you are spinning for stcked healing which is worth the mana cost. If you are able to throw in some TP/BoK's, by all means go for it, but it is not as strictly enforced as Jab generated MM procs. After that, gain chi as normal with ReM, Expel Harm and such, but every time you use jab, you better be using TP or BoK to consume the MM proc. Sometimes, if you're not hurting for mana, you can jab for the one extra chi to allow you to get the extra uplift, but that is only worth it if you do a decent amount of healing with that uplift.

Lastly, if you find yourself wanting quick chi, you should "spam" (as in click/press your button repeatedly) your soothing mist on a target. This will result in a much higher chi gain, but also net a bigger mana loss. This is more mana efficient than using jab as a chi generator for uplifts.

In short: Use chi generated from jab for fistweaving, while using chi generated from mistweaving spells (ReM, EH, Soothing) on buffed Muscle Memory BoK's or uplifts.

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Fistweaving should really be considered as part of the standard toolkit for Mistweavers. It's not something that you will use on every encounter or even throughout any one encounter, but it has several advantages.

1) Contributes DPS to the raid

2) When the rotation is followed properly, is relatively efficient

3) Tiger Palm stacks a buff which gives you instant, free Surging Mists at 5 stacks

4) Doesn't get in the way of light raid healing - you can still generate Chi and heal the raid through using ReM on cooldown

Downsides:

1) Need to make sure you use as many Muscle Memory procs as possible so you don't run yourself OOM by Jabbing

2) Because of 1), you don't really generate enough Chi to use Uplift or Enveloping Mist, so when you need to improve your throughput beyond the occasional instant Surging Mist, you will have no choice but to break the loop and switch back to mistweaving.

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There's also some confusion on what fistweaving actually is compared to last tiers "zealweaving" which I plan to address in my guide I will make.

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Thank you guys for answering, I am getting the picture a tad better. I had a feeling it would be a combo of the two styles.

One final question is concerning the talents.

  • I am obviously using Posted ImageCelerity here since I am using Posted ImageChi Torpedo as t6

  • I mostly prefer Posted ImageChi Wave here, I dont think Posted ImageZen Sphere is really worth it unless the tank drops below 35% often, which in turn shouldn't be happening. I guess Posted ImageChi Burst can be quite good for stacked raid, but Im gonna go with Posted ImageChi Wave probably always.

  • Heres the big question for me. Posted ImagePower Strikes seems quite powerfull to me, especially with the boost it's gonna get in 5.4 (See * below) Posted ImageAscension might be nice if you dont know what to do with your chi. I guess this talent would be a waste in my case. Posted ImageChi Brew provides an excelent cooldown for burst healing. I am not really sure if I should use Posted ImagePower Strikes or Posted ImageChi Brew. but I suppose I can look at this from an Encounter to encounter perspective, meaning I can change it beforehand to suit the mechanics of the fight.

  • Posted ImageRing of Peace obviously, maybe the stuns from Posted ImageCharging Ox Wave and Posted ImageLeg Sweep can be a situational use, but I dont think I'll ever use these.

  • It is stated in the MWguide that Posted ImageDiffuse Magic or Posted ImageDampen Harm would be the best choices. which is really understandable since it provides a defensive cooldown. But I'm not really sure why Posted ImageHealing Elixirs is presumed to be such a bad choice. (See the ** quote) I use Mana tea glyphed, meaning I am constantly spamming the tea in my rotation. it is a rather large heal, but I dont really care if it goes to waste every now and then, I personally think this is an excelent unexpected manasaver. And although the guide seems to assume so, I will not hold out an important ability in order to make it usefull. 15% health every 18 secs. Totally worth it if u ask me. This last talent is going to get boosted in 5.4 too btw (See * again)

  • Posted ImageChi Torpedo, this one will probably give me the most flexible healing especially in combo with the t1 talent Posted ImageCelerity
*

Source: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/10158897/

Talents

Chi Brew will now also generate stacks of Brew/Teas based on the Monk's specialization.

Brewmaster: 10 stacks of Elusive Brew

Mistweaver: 3 stacks of Mana Tea

Windwalker: 3 stacks of Tigereye Brew

Healing Elixirs will no longer activate if the Monk is already at full health, and activate automatically when the Monk has less than 35% of their maximum health.

Invoke Xuen, the White Tiger's summoned version of Xuen will no longer taunt off players that are tank-specialized.

For Brewmaster Monks, they now gain Vengeance when Xuen takes damage.

Power Strikes will now activate from the following Chi generating abilities; Jab, Expel Harm, Spinning Crane Kick (when it hits at least 3 targets), Keg Smash, Crackling Jade Lightning, and Soothing Mist.

Ring of Peace has a new visual effect that properly depicts its area-of-effect, and now disarms both enemies and those attacking allies within the Ring of Peace's area-of-effect for 4 seconds (up from 3 seconds); the silence effect for casting spells remains unchanged at 3 seconds.

Glyphs

Glyph of Afterlife now increases the chance to summon a Healing Sphere by 100% (up from 25% chance).

(I've not included the BM and WW parts ^^)

**

Finally, while Posted ImageHealing Elixirs may provide substantial self-healing over the course of the fight, the fact that this healing is tied to your usage of other abilities makes it less flexible. Therefore, you will often have to either have the healing be wasted, or you will have to delay using an important ability just to benefit more from the healing.

This quote came from the "Mistweaver Monk Healing Spec, Builds, Talents, and Glyphs (WoW MoP 5.3)" Page.

Any thoughts would be apreciated. especially on t3 and t5.

Cheers and thanks in advance

Shine

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  • You are correct, although, in 10 mans Chi torpedo is sometimes not too great, and I see most people use Xuen for the extra damage and only use Chi torpedo for Megaera. If you do use Xuen, I would suggest using Tiger's Lust.
  • For 10 man, yes you are correct, 25 you want to prefer Chi Burst. Though Burst can have great uses in 10 as well when used properly. (mainly on stacked fights like Megaera/normal jinrohk/last phase horridon, etc)
  • I've been playing Monk pretty much since they have come out, I think I only missed a small part of the some abilities that got changed when they hit live. That being said, I'm pretty much a cranky old man when it comes to this and am so use to using Chi Brew for healing. The buff to PS is nice, but I am just so use to having the extra cooldown for raid burst healing that I don't think I could do without it. I think there is some math, that PS will give marginally more chi over the course of a fight, but the utility that brew brings IMO, is just overall worth it.
  • Yes.
  • Again, I've been playing it from the start, and elixirs have been a pretty meh talent for the most part. I enjoy having extra buttons to push, especially defensive cooldowns. The buff to it is nice, and IMO will be useful for all 3 specs. In the next tier I will probably default to the two main abilities just because I’d rather have a defensive I can activate for new fights. Though, for most fights I prefer having the other two abilities. I’ll list them out here and as I write, I’ll consider elixirs and which fights it would be more useful.

    • Jin’rohk: On heroic at least, Diffuse Magic, can help you survive the ionization while saving your dispel for someone else.
    • Horridon: On Heroic you can Dampen Harm about every other Dire Call, save yourself from embarrassment from getting hit by ice orbs, and mitigate a lot of the aoe damage at the end of the fight. Note: This fight I can see elixirs being pretty decent.
    • Council: Diffuse Magic is a life saver on Heroic when Kazrajin is empowered and your raid is already dipping low during discharges. But other than that, I can see elixirs being good here as well.
    • Tortos: Dampen Harm here is a must. You can dampen the first stomp and every other one after that while cycling between Zen Med and Glyphed Fort Brew to allow you to never lose your shield on heroic. Will mitigate much more damage than elixirs will heal here.
    • Megaera: Diffuse can work well for rampages, though I tend to use Dampen Harm just so I don’t accidently diffuse off a Cinder’s debuff. I can also see elixirs work well here.
    • Ji-Kun: Diffuse Magic works wonders on feed pools that you need to soak.
    • Durumu: Diffuse Magic can mitigate a lot of magic damage here, including: Life Drain, purple void zone damage, running through eye sores to get to new area of maze, and light spectrum damage.
    • Primordious: On heroic I use Dampen harm when there is an ability that we have to spread out for, just in case I get a random hit. Diffuse and Dampen work well for the Pathogen if you get it, but other than that elixirs can work.
    • Dark Animus: Dampen Harm works well for the beginning when there is a lot of physical damage on you from your add if you get clipped, though diffuse or dampen would also work very well for interrupting jolts.
    • Iron Qon: In my 25 man, when we have an excess of melee in our group we tend to soak about 5-7 fire debuffs with cooldowns just so range don’t have to stack. Here I like to use Dampen Harm to help mitigate the later damage that hits pretty hard while I’m in melee and for fist smashes later in the fight.
    • Twin Consorts: I use Diffuse Magic here on heroic for inferno blasts so I can freely chi torpedo in and out w/o taking a massive amount of damage.
    • Lei Shen: I use diffuse Magic here because it is absolutely useful during transition phases to solo soak a static shock (on top of using Zen Med if you get 2 in a row)
  • See talent 1.

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Thank you very much for replying, I can definately use this info. I am not quite ready for Hc ToT but your post gave me a better overall understanding.

I think there is some math, that PS will give marginally more chi over the course of a fight

OMG I cannot help but think of the endless discussion in the DK forums atm. They are all talking about a talent choice that matters very little imo. its just the one tldr after the other.

I can imagine Xuen being better in 10man, and Tigers lust is idd a good combo with it.

I noticed the t1 and t6 being linked in both examples given sofar. but I do imagine Posted ImageRushing Jade Wind being quite good in 10man aswell. Xuen is ofc an add that helps out and persists for 45 sec. Would the cooldown on Posted ImageRushing Jade Wind not be more friendly especially when your raid and/or a bunch of adds are stacked together. a sck can get a great boost from this.

For now, I will just make sure to buy a bunch of tomes to keep resetting and getting used to the various benefits.

Thank you very much for helping out.

Shine

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Honeslty, I have not really used rushing jade wind because Chi torpedo is such an integral part of my rotation. On top Chi torpedo not costing any mana.

Rush Jade Wind costs 2 chi, which takes away from my uplift healing. general rule of thumb though, is if you take Chi torpedo, you should use Celerity.

IMO Tiger's lust is a better spell though.

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I guess the Chi cost does put a bit of a damper on it dont it.

Posted ImageInvoke Xuen, the White Tiger it is (In 10 man) for 25m or maybe some stacked fights I will still stick with chi torpedo.

I must say I always enjoyed having momentum, since I roll once, get an 8 sec 25% speed increase, then after 7 seconds I roll again getting a refresh on the 8 secs but now stacked to 50% increase. Ofc I dont need saying that this is not really needed for raids ^^

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Someone should help me think of a title for the Fistweaving guide...

I was thinkging something with Eminence like, emanating healing: a fistweaving guide or anything else.

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Eminence healing - Hitting it where it counts.

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I like it. I'm going to change it slightly, but it works.

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Great information and completely agree.....however, for those of us that play for exactly this kind of challenge, similar to my good buddy meleemage how can we gear. And play mostly eminence with traditional spells as back up? And as importantly how do we progress through gear and stats starting at say i470? I have read lots about extensive BoK nut not much about how to recover quickly from a few aoe spinning crane kicks. I understand that crit will play a lessor role in mana tea in 5.4. Does that mean that Blizzard really doesn't want to make it viable at all? It would be nice if we could branch or talent toward melee heals at some expense to casted heals offering a real dual raid/5 man utility.

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A few things to consider when you are planning on fistweaving:

1) Without the LMG, fistweaving is very manaheavy. If you deside to go FW without it, it will force you to use mana tea on CD, which will be a major dps/hps loss. With the 4 secs of free casting, fistweaving can actually be mana restorative.

2) Try to keep your spirit at about 5200, since this is what will make you hit/exp capped. The LMG and and occasional MT should keep your mana stable, and you can make up for the lost MP5 with trinkets like Soothing Talisman and Horridon's Last Grasp.

3) When it comes to weapons, 2h's gives roughly 5-10% more dps than 1h + OH at the same iLvL. Suen-Wo is currently the best weapon for fistweaving, with a 2/2 upgrade.

4) Gem for full crit. Easy as that.

5) Xuen is pretty much mandatory if you wanna FW. It synergizes with SZ, and can provide a major HPS increase.

6) Never forget that you are actually a healer. Never prioritize staying on a boss if someone is in need of saving. Even though fistweaving is great for some extra dps whilst providing steady healing, you need to be able to tell when to stop hitting the boss and go full MW.

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Btw, awesome advice! i love to see how much thought people give these forums. Stupid question but what is LMG?

So after sneaking into raids to gear up I decided to go try to fistweave heroics and OMG is it fun to out dps the newly 90 dpsers! With a couple renewing mists I not only kept everyone topped off but did 45k dps. Problem is I then logged to my rest druid to try what I refer to as BranchWeaving, which as you can well imagine did not result in quite the same offensive production.

That's it I confess I love my monk! Now for the question. Rushing jade wind and fistweaving seem to belong together. I use chi torp for raiding cause the free heals times 3 just makes sense but wouldn't that dps/hps Sck increase really make it another version of tranquility even though smaller.

How much spirit do you think it would take to be able to fire off a few of those with going oom? I am going to play around with it unless someone can save me the time.

IMO fistweaving isn't about strictly high dps but raid/heroic utility. Oh lastly, as I hear we are losing Sck for RJW and our mana tea is getting nerfed I was wondering if anyone has given thought to how much mastery we will have to forgo for spirit and can we go heavy spirit/crit totally skipping mastery and still see good results?

Edited by Irondaddy

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Btw, awesome advice! i love to see how much thought people give these forums. Stupid question but what is LMG?

Legendary Meta Gem

That's it I confess I love my monk! Now for the question. Rushing jade wind and fistweaving seem to belong together. I use chi torp for raiding cause the free heals times 3 just makes sense but wouldn't that dps/hps Sck increase really make it another version of tranquility even though smaller.

NO, NO, NO. Rushing Jade wind Is NEVER good for fistweaving. If you're going to fistweave, absolutely use Xuen.

How much spirit do you think it would take to be able to fire off a few of those with going oom? I am going to play around with it unless someone can save me the time.

Generally you just want above 5100 spirit (to hit the hit/exp caps), which you will normally have passivly on your gear already.

IMO fistweaving isn't about strictly high dps but raid/heroic utility. Oh lastly, as I hear we are losing Sck for RJW and our mana tea is getting nerfed I was wondering if anyone has given thought to how much mastery we will have to forgo for spirit and can we go heavy spirit/crit totally skipping mastery and still see good results?

The new RJW is pretty nice on stacked fights. It can make you lose mana more, but its good if you are stacked enough that it makes shamans outheal you.

As for the mastery subject, what are you talking about? Mastery is NEVER a good stat. You should always try to avoid mastery pieces even if its an ilvl upgrade.

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Aslo, I came across this fistweaving guide on MMO. http://www.mmo-champ...Receive-Healing

And I have to humbly say, it is way better than mine, but it is ok I expected it coming from Reglitch. Reglitch is an AWESOME theorycrafter and has contributed a lot the Mistweaver community.

I read that one on MMO, but please do not be humble as your knowledge and attention to details is incredibly impressive. It is a great guide. I think that the primary theme here is, to be a GREAT MW you MUST at least no how to FW as it is an important part of the MW spec.

I hope that Blizzard decides that it is a legit offering and buff us as the utility to a raid to have someone that simultaneously put out mid level dps and mid level heals should be apparent.

On another note.. At what point do you decide that your head piece warrants a Legendary Meta? Do you quite literally wait till you have the best in slot, and similarly is there ever a time in which actually spending the 10k gold is worth the sha touched gem? It seems as though you are more likely to replace a weapon that is only iLevel 490s anyway so why bother??

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You want to put the LMG in ASAP. If you get a new piece you can buy a new one for 5 primal diamonds form wrathion.

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Another relatively dumb question but... As I am working my way through LFR raid progression do you think I am better off spending my time upgrading gear or doing the LMG quest line? Also any advice you can give on reforming would be great. I have been obviously dumping mastery for crit or spirit (I still even at 7k run dry too early- I know it's my mechanics). Should I be shooting fo second haste cap in order to up my hps when misting? I regularly am 4th rated. Perhaps it's gear too?? Tankabelle us-garrosh.

Thanks for being such an amazing resource to us all!

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for the questline, you don't spend 3k valor you just acquire it. you can spend your valor on upgrades as normal. Get the 2nd haste cap when you get 6141 haste rating

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Big revelation tonight doing ToT for the first time. I spent nearly the whole time fistweaving using torp to roll in and out of melee and ended up 3rd highest healer. A few uplifts and ReM and bamb. But as you have stressed many times it requires restraint and a tdedication to rotation to not end up mana depleted. I can only imagine what a LMG would do for me. So haste to second cap before crit? I imagine that would make traditional heals especially hots hotter but how much will it effect eminence?

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Opps, sorry was in the middle of raid when I posted.

I meant do not get the 2nd haste cap (6141) until you get your 2pc.

Also I looked at your armory and for your talents get rid of power strikes and healing elixirs and use any of the other 2 in each.

Also, never gem mastery

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Another benefit of the Wrathion Questline, although it is quite challenging, is that if you run it to completion you get an iLevel 600 Cloak, which will have +991 of each of your main secondary stats. I have this currently on two of my toons and am working on my Mistweaver to get it next.

 

Although I have yet to do much Fistweaving, and my HPS on my Mistweaving is way to low (I have never played a healing class before of any kind), I have pretty much been reforging by Ask Mr. Robot, and although it is determined to give me more spirit and am sure I need more crit, as well. This maybe due to the talents that I have chosen, but I do not know if Mr. Robot takes that into account!

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Another benefit of the Wrathion Questline, although it is quite challenging, is that if you run it to completion you get an iLevel 600 Cloak, which will have +991 of each of your main secondary stats. I have this currently on two of my toons and am working on my Mistweaver to get it next.

 

Although I have yet to do much Fistweaving, and my HPS on my Mistweaving is way to low (I have never played a healing class before of any kind), I have pretty much been reforging by Ask Mr. Robot, and although it is determined to give me more spirit and am sure I need more crit, as well. This maybe due to the talents that I have chosen, but I do not know if Mr. Robot takes that into account!

 

Mr. Robot takes into account your talents, but nothing in a Monk talent tree greatly impacts your optimization.  Just look at the post titled "how to ask for help with your mistweaver monk" and it will tel you the custom weights you should use.

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      https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/compare/LM7V6zpZKWdrwNmF/VA8jx2MLqY6phzJ1#fight=20,6&source=3,Rüsselcrowe&type=damage-done
      Mythic Ursoc logs:
      https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/compare/LM7V6zpZKWdrwNmF/QRV4YzvpcxJhrtjm#fight=13,5&source=3,Mithrilangel&type=damage-done
      https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/compare/LM7V6zpZKWdrwNmF/kZ1rXq2xLhfPmbCF#fight=13,6&source=3,Lavinath&type=damage-done