BrazenBadger

Questions on Slice and Dice Theorycraft

10 posts in this topic

Hi. So, I'm a soon to be returning player from back in vanilla days who hasn't been able to play since the end of Cata/early Pandaria. Really looking forward to a couple of expansions of content to faff with. Anyway, until I can actually play, I've been nerding out over the info and forums pages trying to decide what I'll main and use my new account free boost on, and since mythic+ looks really exciting to me, and I'm an old combat rogue enthusiast, I'm of course really interested in outlaw. But I had a couple questions on the theorycraft that I've been able to research, which mainly pertain to me really hoping a Slice and Dice can be viable.

Now, from what I've seen, a lot of the people who have been experimenting and reporting low damage with Slice and Dice builds compared to Roll the Bones on both forums and videos don't mention weighting the stats any differently; they seem to be using the same values that the popular Roll the Bones build favors; high crit and versatility, and low mastery and haste a la IcyVeins suggestion. I haven't seen anyone on any of the forums go into the fact that doubling auto attack speed will basically double the value of Combat Potency and of mastery proccing Main Gauche, and further Combat Potency proccs off of Main Gauche attacks. 

In other words, it gives all of these abilities double the chance to procc, since attack speed is increased 100 percent, and will synergistically increase both auto attack damage and energy regen. This, according to my math should put the value of Mastery well above the others, and subsequently, a high mastery will increase the value of haste synergistically in causing those procs to occur. And it might explain why some of these tests yield such unfavorable results for slice and dice, since it seems to almost reverse the stat preference with mastery first and haste second.

It also seems like it would weight the value of sword master slightly more; with the main energy spender having an increased chance to proc an attack that has a chance to proc main gauche. Though, of course, that's minor compared to the Mastery and Haste difference, it might make a difference compared to other talents on that tier. It might also favor relics that add points to the Artifact ability 'Fortune Strikes' that gives bonus energy points from Combat potency procs.

Sadly, I can't test any of this out personally for a couple more weeks, so I was curious if anyone has, or has seen anyone who has? Also, this is napkin math, not proper simcraft, so any insights from that would be appreciated! Thanks!

Edited by BrazenBadger

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8 hours ago, BrazenBadger said:

Hi. So, I'm a soon to be returning player from back in vanilla days who hasn't been able to play since the end of Cata/early Pandaria. Really looking forward to a couple of expansions of content to faff with. Anyway, until I can actually play, I've been nerding out over the info and forums pages trying to decide what I'll main and use my new account free boost on, and since mythic+ looks really exciting to me, and I'm an old combat rogue enthusiast, I'm of course really interested in outlaw. But I had a couple questions on the theorycraft that I've been able to research, which mainly pertain to me really hoping a Slice and Dice can be viable.

Now, from what I've seen, a lot of the people who have been experimenting and reporting low damage with Slice and Dice builds compared to Roll the Bones on both forums and videos don't mention weighting the stats any differently; they seem to be using the same values that the popular Roll the Bones build favors; high crit and versatility, and low mastery and haste a la IcyVeins suggestion. I haven't seen anyone on any of the forums go into the fact that doubling auto attack speed will basically double the value of Combat Potency and of mastery proccing Main Gauche, and further Combat Potency proccs off of Main Gauche attacks. 

In other words, it gives all of these abilities double the chance to procc, since attack speed is increased 100 percent, and will synergistically increase both auto attack damage and energy regen. This, according to my math should put the value of Mastery well above the others, and subsequently, a high mastery will increase the value of haste synergistically in causing those procs to occur. And it might explain why some of these tests yield such unfavorable results for slice and dice, since it seems to almost reverse the stat preference with mastery first and haste second.

It also seems like it would weight the value of sword master slightly more; with the main energy spender having an increased chance to proc an attack that has a chance to proc main gauche. Though, of course, that's minor compared to the Mastery and Haste difference, it might make a difference compared to other talents on that tier. It might also favor relics that add points to the Artifact ability 'Fortune Strikes' that gives bonus energy points from Combat potency procs.

Sadly, I can't test any of this out personally for a couple more weeks, so I was curious if anyone has, or has seen anyone who has? Also, this is napkin math, not proper simcraft, so any insights from that would be appreciated! Thanks!

The short answer is you'll get less damage this way.

1) Main Gauche doesn't do much damage

2) The buffs from Roll the Bones are really, really strong, especially when you roll 3 or 6

Slice and Dice is getting buffed in the coming patch though, so it might be a little more viable. That remains to be seen

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Hi! Happy holiday, and thanks. Please don't take this as ungrateful for your reply, I appreciate it very much, thank you, But I was definitely looking for the long version answer.  I can't sim or test it right now, like I said in my original post. But my calculations based on weapon speed, haste and mastery rates, and proc rates make me a bit skeptical of the largely anecdotal seeming disparity in damage. I mean, we've all seen how seemingly small percentage differences can work to create huge DPS shifts if maximized with gearing and talent and relic choices, etc. Yes, Main Gauche isn't much damage once, but 210 percent attack isn't insignificant. But My estimations can show it possibly occuring more than once a second and that damage adds way up. And that's even besides the increased Combat Potency per second ratio. So I'd really love to see math with all the variables that I'm foggy on filled in.

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2 hours ago, BrazenBadger said:

Hi! Happy holiday, and thanks. Please don't take this as ungrateful for your reply, I appreciate it very much, thank you, But I was definitely looking for the long version answer.  I can't sim or test it right now, like I said in my original post. But my calculations based on weapon speed, haste and mastery rates, and proc rates make me a bit skeptical of the largely anecdotal seeming disparity in damage. I mean, we've all seen how seemingly small percentage differences can work to create huge DPS shifts if maximized with gearing and talent and relic choices, etc. Yes, Main Gauche isn't much damage once, but 210 percent attack isn't insignificant. But My estimations can show it possibly occuring more than once a second and that damage adds way up. And that's even besides the increased Combat Potency per second ratio. So I'd really love to see math with all the variables that I'm foggy on filled in.

All of the possible talent combinations have already been simmed; I'll drop a link to the results down at the bottom of this post if you would like to look at them.

The highest simming talent setup with SnD is 1310021. Basically this means that you're taking Ghostly Strike, Deeper Stratagem, Alacrity, and Slice and Dice. Basic Sim (not completely tricked out weapon):

  • Min DPS: 370518  
  • Mean DPS: 412118    
  • Max DPS: 450653

Ghostly Strike will give bonus damage to Main Gauche as well, since it's a separate ability hit (yellow damage instead of white), which means it gives more benefit than Swordmaster or anything.

Additionally, SnD doesn't give any benefit other than Attack Speed. RtB provides a number of other buffs that give more damage, and as an added benefit you'll usually play with 2 or more of these buffs. These vary from increased Crit chance to reducing the cooldown on every spell that has a cooldown - this includes Marked for Death and Death From Above, which are both of the other talent options in that tier. These options (and the others) all give more of an increase to damage than more attack speed does.

As for other stats, Mastery only increases the chance to proc MG. Crit and Vers both increase the damage of everything, including Run Through which hits significantly harder than anything else. Haste is valuable only up until you aren't Energy starved, then you don't need any more because other stats provide more benefit.

Hopefully that's enough of an explanation lol, I really don't want to break down the individual damage ratios on every skill and show how they all benefit from other stats.

These are the sim results I was talking about. The current best way to play wasn't exactly dreamed up, as you can see from this HUGE spreadsheet :P

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Thanks! The spreadsheet is helpful.

Just to point out, though, mastery increased the rate of main gauche, but main gauche can proc combat potency, and both will be triggering twice as much, passively, with slice and dice. There were a few options which stacked togeather that I had hoped could make it more viable.

I see where my problem is, though. Last time I played, reforging was still a thing. I think if you had enough control over your stats to stack sufficient haste and mastery together, you could make the build I had in mind work. But since the stats from tier gear are more fixed, now, I'm thinking you're largely right.

Oh, well. It was worth a shot. Sadly, this means I'll probably be going Shammy. Not for dps total reasons, just because I think RtB would drive me insane.

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43 minutes ago, BrazenBadger said:

Oh, well. It was worth a shot. Sadly, this means I'll probably be going Shammy. Not for dps total reasons, just because I think RtB would drive me insane.

this is 100% the reason why I can't play Outlaw. 

The spec feels great, it really does. It's satisfying to run around the world, use a pistol, grappling hook is amazing... I could go on and on about the cool things that I enjoy about the spec.

That said, I can't raid as it. I don't enjoy that much RNG built into a spec, and I don't enjoy that whether or not I parse well depends on how lucky I am. Sometimes I'll be able to solo that add which has to die, sometimes I'll throw dice at it and watch as they bounce off. It just doesn't feel good to dps as in raid, which is unfortunate.

I sympathise with Enhance - it's a hugely satisfying spec. If you were a fan of spammy old Combat, you might enjoy Fury Warrior. It's also kind of spammy and highly mobile

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I feel you, there, thanks. And, huh. i hadn't thought of fury warrior. I'll give it a look over. I was leaning more towards mythic+ than raiding, as my work schedule makes the latter kind of hard to arrange. Thanks, again!

Edited by BrazenBadger
Thought mishap.

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8 hours ago, BrazenBadger said:

I feel you, there, thanks. And, huh. i hadn't thought of fury warrior. I'll give it a look over. I was leaning more towards mythic+ than raiding, as my work schedule makes the latter kind of hard to arrange. Thanks, again!

Fury is still pretty good for M+. There's a specific setup of talents that you can run which basically turns you into a constant whirlwind of death; it's pretty fun and looks wicked too :P

Also I can't remember if I mentioned this before or not, but SnD is receiving some fair buffs in the coming patch, and it might be enough to make it viable. I'm not sure what will and won't make it to live, but there's still hope if you do want to be a pirate :P

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I confess the phrase 'constant whirlwind of death' presents a strong incentive. I sense a kindred spirit. We're probably getting way off the thread topic, but would you suggest the fury warrior over shaman or monk for that classic combat rogue feel without the SnD? 

 

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7 hours ago, BrazenBadger said:

I confess the phrase 'constant whirlwind of death' presents a strong incentive. I sense a kindred spirit. We're probably getting way off the thread topic, but would you suggest the fury warrior over shaman or monk for that classic combat rogue feel without the SnD? 

 

Not really, mainly because Combat was incredibly spammy pushing the same 1 button over and over again, and Blizzard has moved away from that with just about every class.

Enhance, to me, has one big huge ability (Stormstrike) that feels and looks amazing to use. It's still a fast spec; you always have something to press, but the other abilities are either small hits or buffs that you apply to yourself while waiting for Stormstrike to be available again. It also looks crazy cool, because Crashed Lightning is awesome.

Fury plays at about the same speed, but feels very hectic. They have a few passives which all increase attack speed, and while your white hits don't actually do a ton of damage, they look neat cause you're waving a couple giant swords around while you spam buttons. It has a very satisfying bunch of spells though, that all look really cool, and when mashing out AoE skills it looks like you turn into a steel whirlwind.

Monk is my preferred choice of these 3, but it is different than the others in that your skills are more subtle. There aren't a ton of flashy animations to go with Monks, which makes sense given that you're mainly throwing punches and kicks, but visually doesn't look awesome as dropping lightning on your enemies or butchering them with a couple giant swords. That said, Monks are very fast and relatively complicated - not only do most of their abilities have a cooldown, so you can't spam them, Monks get a very significant benefit from not using the same skill twice in a row and so require you to pay a lot more attention in combat.

If it makes a difference, out of these 3 I play Monk. It's easily one of the most fun DPS specs I've ever played, and it's complicated enough to force me to pay attention to things (the main thing I didn't like about Combat was how spammy it was mashing the same button over and over) and not fall asleep. If I had the time, I would have both Shaman and Warrior alts as well, and I don't think you'll go wrong with any of them

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