Our Frost Mage is low, Help me Help him

[dgreborn 0]

So i got a Frost mage in our group who is consistently the lowest dps in the group. I'm talking pulling 130k on every fight with 558 Ilvl. It's starting to get to the point where i don't think we can down garrosh with this guy here. 

 

This is a kind of off night for us considering we had none of our tanks and we had to bring in alts and subs, but here we go.

 

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-eeih812y2lh4dv7b/details/17/?s=7429&e=7767

 

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/stonemaul/Woadi/simple

 

Please tell me what he is doing wrong that he can't outdps the 536 shammy as frost.

[Akomagus 8]

 

 

I can't look at his profile at work, but I will tell you what I noticed in logs.  I'm not a great log reader by any means but I will tell you that to only have Invoker's Energy active for 37% of the time is a HUGE DPS LOSS!

 

I mean, that's a major buff and for it to not be active that long is really not good.  His nether tempest seems good.  Also, I don't know about how ice lance shows up in logs but it should have proc'd more than once.  I mean, in a fight with no adds I guess maybe you wouldn't see it, but that fight has adds and I have a hard time believing he only got a FoF proc once while adds were up.  I don't know...I'm sure some better log readers will chime in but that Invoker's Energy is a glaring mistake.  I used to be lousy with it so I set up a weak aura and my DPS did much better.

 

(Never mind about the Ice lance, just realized I saw the one that didn't crit, all the rest obviously crit like they are supposed too)

Edited November 6, 2013 by Akomagus

[Scoubi45 0]

We did not went that far with my guild yet so I hope I won't make too much mistakes in my analysis.

As AkoMagus said, first thing is Invokers Energy. Very low uptime meaning huge DPS loss.

The number of Ice Lance seems a little low, especially on a fight with adds. Same for NT.

And most of all it seems that your mage is almost never casting FrostBolt. I would expect at least 50% more casts of FB.

 

Hope that helps a little bit...

[Archimage 98]

This is my first time analyzing logs and offering help, so veterans please assist me where I am wrong.

 

Here is my checklist I went through:

1. I have checked Woadi on Ask Mr Robot: http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/gear/usa/stonemaul/woadi

Everything is optimized correctly.

 

2. Checking the logs and comparing it with Icy-veins's guide: https://www.icy-veins.com/frost-mage-wow-pve-dps-rotation-cooldowns-abilities

 

a. Mage Bomb:

Nether Tempest displays a 92.8 uptime, which is acceptable, 

 

b. Frozen Orbs: 

Can only see hits+crits, so I don't know if he is casting it on cooldown. 

 

c. Frostfire Bolt (using Brain Freeze procs): 

Brain Freeze proced 37 times, but used only used 31 times. I see 1 FFB did not crit, he could have been unlucky or he hard-casted it (which is wrong)

 

d. Ice Lance (using Fingers of Frost procs:

FoF proced 28 times, Ice Lance was casted 29 times, so 1 Ice Lance was casted without the FoF proc. (Acceptable)

 

e. Tier 6 Talent:

Invocation uptime displays 37%, as Akomagus mentioned, this is a Huge DPS loss, He should refresh Invocation by Evocating when the buff drops for a 100% uptime.

 

f. Offensive Cooldowns

Mirror Image:

Only Used once, the fight duration allowed it to be used twice

 

Icy Veins and Alter Time:

The fight duration allowed Woadi to cast it twice. (FYI: 1 cast of Icy Veins allows you to gain the buff twice due to Alter Time). Woadi only casted it once.

 

Another thing i noticed is the absence of the Potion of the Jade Serpent, which could have been used twice.

 

I suggest Woadi should use the Opening Sequence mentioned in the Icy Veins guide given above (Section 5.3)

 

Another thing I notice is that Woadi is casting Ice Barrier, this should only be done when the healers are struggling.

 

So the Major issues are just the Tier 6 buff, Offensive Cooldowns and the Potion of Jade Serpent

 

EDIT: Just checked Woadi's Talents and Glyphs. Glyph of Icy Veins should be used for that 20% bonus damage. Also I see Icy Floes taken, but is not displayed on the logs, in movement phases it could help with casting Frostbolt when he doesn't have to use NT,  FoF or BF procs.

 

EDIT 2: Ignore the Offensive cooldowns section saying they could have been used twice, some fights last long enough for 2 casts, but the fight only lasted 5:37 minutes, meaning the 3 minute cooldowns could only have been used once.  Thx Mono

Edited November 6, 2013 by Archimage

[Mono 0]

EDIT 2: Ignore the Offensive cooldowns section saying they could have been used twice, some fights last long enough for 2 casts, but the fight only lasted 5:37 minutes, meaning the 3 minute cooldowns could only have been used once.

You don't wait 3 minutes before popping cooldowns. If an encounter lasts for 5 minutes and 37 seconds you would be able to use 3 minute cooldowns twice, not once. Once at pull and a second time after roughly three minutes.

[Akraen 230]

He's just not pressing his buttons.

 

Rule #1 of being a caster: Always be casting. He should've cast twice as many frostbolts. For periods of time he was just standing there, not doing anything. Maybe he's overwhelmed? Maybe he needs TidyPlates?

 

He only had one successful Invoker's Energy buff from Evocation.

 

He isn't glyphing icy veins-- it's possible he just missed that they fixed it so it's a significant DPS gain now.

 

These things are why his DPS is this low, he could be well over 250k DPS on Garrosh with his gear. On Sha he should be ~235k.

Edited November 6, 2013 by Akraen

[Archimage 98]

Rule #1 of being a caster: Always be casting. He should've cast twice as many frostbolts. For periods of time he was just standing there, not doing anything. Maybe he's overwhelmed? Maybe he needs TidyPlates?

 

Lets calculate how long he didn't cast:

Encounter Time: 5:37 = 337 seconds

 

Haste: 35.61%

Global Cooldown = 1.5 / 1.3561 = 1.1 seconds

 

Judging by the number of GCD spells cast: 

Instants; (FFB, IL, NT, Ice Barrier, Blink, Mirror Image)  = (31+29+59+6+1+1) = 127 * 1.1 = 139.7 seconds

Frostbolts: 66 * (2 second cast - Haste = 1.475 second cast time) = 97.35 seconds

6 Frozen Orbs could have been cast: 5.5 seconds

 

Encounter Time (337) - GCD Spells Cast (243) = 94 seconds

 

So a estimated 90 Seconds of the encounter is missing . . .

I noticed (On the Graph) that he stops DPS when he takes damage, hence the Ice Barrier Casts.

Edited November 6, 2013 by Archimage

[Akraen 230]

I'm really not a fan of Ice Barrier for a number of reasons. For someone who doesn't play too well to begin with, it's even another distraction to add to the pile. Have him just take TS and macro it to Frostbolt, or even use Flameglow.

 

He needs to focus on doing better damage.

[Oltier 471]

My analysis:

 

- Invoker's energy uptime is terribly low.

- He only used Mirror Image and Alter Time once during the fight.

- His trinket (Volatile) is pretty bad. Even an int trinket from ToT LFR is more beneficial than that.

- He didn't use DPS potion.

- He had 37 BF charges and only consumed 31.

- He most likely applied NT onto the adds (Reflections) and even casted Frostfire Bolt on some of them. He really should save up frozen orb for the adds and consume the FoF charges on them, or even on the boss, if the adds die quickly anyway.

- Frostbolt numbers are very-very low. Compared to my logs, he had 45+21=66, I had 109+15+((22+12)/3)=135. I have had more than double of his casts and I even slacked a lot on my fight. This low number of casts resulted in lower number of Icicles, Brain Freezes and Fingers of frosts.

- He didn't use Water Elemental's freeze spell to increase his crit chance on the adds and/or to gain free fingers of frost charges.

- No glyph of icy-veins.

- Not a DPS loss, but as a tailor he could have a much cheaper legs enchant equivalent of his recent... :D Master's spellthread if I recall the name right. (At least something like that)

[Mariketa 8]

Great job with the analysis guys. Great to have a helpful community not flaming people or anything.   My raid is working on Garrosh 10N as well, though I switched from frost to fire spec a few weeks ago.

 

I'd add - though I'm no expert at working the logs:

Regarding the uptime on Invoker's Energy I never shoot for 100%.  If you go into WoL and pick a fight, then click on your mage, you can see buff uptimes. Go to buffs gained, buffs details, then click the pound sign next to Invoker's Energy.  Okay don't stop now!  click the pound sign by Evocation in the left column.  Okay now you can check them at the top, and shading will appear over the timeline where that buff is present. Click them on and off in different configurations and you can see what happened.

 

As long as *either buff* is present you're good.  Since you are not doing any dps while you cast evocation, you aren't losing any dps for *not* having the buff while you are spending the time holding still casting evocation instead of dps spells.  There are some exception in fights that have built-in downtime, when you should cast evo even if you don't need it. Possibly a dps increase to go without the buff for a few seconds too, if downtime is about to happen.

 

Some examples of my own from last night: (Suggestions to improve my play not the focus but always welcome of course)

Fight with good Invocation not overlapping (Sha, same fight you linked of his):

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/kmo0mpqiheu1j6xu/details/1/?s=2292&e=2534

Click on the invoker's energy check box, and you see light green appear with 3 black gaps. If you then click on evocation so it lights up, 2 of the black spots disappear and the other mostly is covered also
 

Fight with Invo overlapping because of built in downtime (Immerseus):

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/kmo0mpqiheu1j6xu/details/1/?s=578&e=884

Seems like I cast it too early but there was nothing to dps so /shrug. We have practiced the heroic strat with more running in previous weeks but decided to burn faster this week for more Garrosh time.

 

So for your particular case:

On an off night, maybe get him/her to practice on the target dummy with you, test out different rotations/priorities at preset lengths (3 m, 5 m, 6m, 12m whatever lengths the bosses are you want to improve most).  Race you for dps ^^  then try that race again with a planned movement to simulate raiding, or someone else in vent/mumble calling out randomly/periodically to move where you can't predict. I doubt you will get any improvement if you call him/her out in raid. S/He will just get upset and maybe defensive. The rotation has to be practiced enough to be second nature and performable while you are focusing on mechanics instead.

 

I don't think the ice barrier thing is so bad. My example also had a high uptime for IB and my dps was still good overall. Keep in mind no interrupted casting while the barrier is up. I think after examining it (and seeing how long each one stayed up, so it wasn't necessarily needed...) I will try that ts trick and see if I can drop IB without my neck crawling  See if that is a net gain or loss for me in general. For most of us a little dps loss to gain survivability is preferable.

 

37% uptime for Invoker's Energy, as noted by other responders, is bad. It looks like your mage attempted to cast it again and either got interrupted or quit to run or something and perhaps did not notice he did not get the buff after the evo. I suggest downloading weak auras and use this string (it rings a bell when your buff falls off):

 

Evocation Timer:
dOJ9caGEvrAxQkTnu1CvOztHBQkQBlQ(MOCzj7ua7LSBv2puPFkLAya(nvDyroVanykkdhfoOQQtRuhdLoNu1cLkTuvbwSuILtLxtr1trwMGEoOtIIMQsMSIMoKlQk10OKNb01LInsr(UQeBgkBxvXhvfYxvfXNfY8ufQ)QGXkLuJwQy8qfxsvq3cQ6AuQ7jLKXjupgv(KQKwSAjAlI5HkhwIRgzY5p4iXOmmg(DCPRg(DCPRaafbfX(16B2xwar5IMIMAjcZFiA)0sby5fX5n8oTuawzIV3o2giS3gKNpK3Qxy4TbvGqzIh0ogieeaae0I3oouy4TTes0CdzyKcUkCqIEidrjo02FqTebrjhslrt)qEbHPOsTiA6hG(MBQwese2(2WoAjA6hG(MBQUIM(H8cctrLAre03Ctrmpu5WsC14)C2(GJpPsM)34sWXNR5ons(MBch76XzFr)U6sKV5MFZzakc6BU5axN0DLHiYuRfsiri3okQCAjYv5ISf5F5AFgbvxrxkVGAPaSIyEF8MxUxH4A27RCrbfsKRYBZOCjK3j6XTsudSEqLRUcjYvrB)TcYOeHkCqIEzprDKPyw(WSmWqBGy(SqaaHH3kw01KVC7OOYbvawr7PO3F84A2ANxorDQDuhKm1daKXg3B3ZcWBzNXlm8w9IWPnggSqYeEERmW(W4m7Eq2qWylHH3IxKHpn1sudSg4msqO6kY5nkTeL3yG2AjKqI4msqOwIG7lYOe98)JElKqIc2gddwizkdKngemmK1IhiloZwy4T6fsuslrmVpEZl3RqCn79vUOGIyEOYHL4QrMC(dosmkdJHFhx6QHFhx6kaqHe9rbyTaaesca

Edited November 6, 2013 by Mariketa

[fordfiesta 1]

His logs seem ok if the fight were half as long as it is.  He's hardly missing any procs (brainfreeze procs are going to be missed, sometimes they come 2 or even 3 in a row faster than one gcd that they can be casted).

 

He's just not casting it seems, he's very slow and seems to have 50% inactivity, which accounts for him doing pretty much exactly half of the dps he should be doing.

 

He doesn't have the evocate buff uptime that much, but that's only a 15% buff.  If he never casted it or had it at all but was still actually always casting like he should be, he would still be doing 220k dps.  It's a significant loss, but not as game breaking as him having so much downtime and not casting anything.

Edited November 6, 2013 by fordfiesta

[Oltier 471]

His logs seem ok if the fight were half as long as it is.  He's hardly missing any procs (brainfreeze procs are going to be missed, sometimes they come 2 or even 3 in a row faster than one gcd that they can be casted).

 

He's just not casting it seems, he's very slow and seems to have 50% inactivity, which accounts for him doing pretty much exactly half of the dps he should be doing.

 

He doesn't have the evocate buff uptime that much, but that's only a 15% buff.  If he never casted it or had it at all but was still actually always casting like he should be, he would still be doing 220k dps.  It's a significant loss, but not as game breaking as him having so much downtime and not casting anything.

15% is quite signifficant damage boos. I'm doing 240k with crappy gear. If we only take the 85% of it is 204000 and then comes the inactivity. Invocations is admittedly our most important self buff to be kept up and this cannot be arguable :P

[Mit213 20]

15% is quite signifficant damage boos. I'm doing 240k with crappy gear. If we only take the 85% of it is 204000 and then comes the inactivity. Invocations is admittedly our most important self buff to be kept up and this cannot be arguable

I think what he is trying to get at is the mage's biggest issue with his DPS is uptime, rather than keeping up Invocation. Invocation is a really easy fix for a lot of additional damage, but the mage's main focus needs to be on casting constantly and not freezing up his dps when encounter mechanics are going on.

-

In all honesty, the invocation thing can be easily cleared up by a weakauras like they said, but one that would be more reliable and persistent is having an icon that is mostly transparent and swirls around on his screen (figure 8) when the buff drops so it wouldn't impair his ability to see encounter mechanics, but it wouldn't let him ignore or just flat out not realize his buff was down purely due to how annoying/obvious it is.

Edited November 7, 2013 by Mit213

[Mariketa 8]

Yeah you can set that up in WA I think, however you like the display. The one I set up that is linked above runs a little timer for the last few seconds then rings a bell when it's off. I prefer the audible (Hear Kitty does those also). Lots of ways to accomplish this.

Fixing the uptime issue is both easier to do and harder to describe. If he was at your house you could just smash his finger down on his nuke button over and over (faster! schnell!) to give him the idea ^^

 

**edit:  The thought occurs to me that perhaps there is a physical limitation you are dealing with here. Perhaps that can be ameliorated with cast sequence macros; if it is more serious the game does have resources for disabled players. Most likely just someone playing is a newbie but I thought it might be insulting to assume that if there are other issues going on.

Edited November 7, 2013 by Mariketa

[Macca 0]

Im very interested in the "logs" you keep mentioning, I know where they are and I have a account too, http://www.worldoflogs.com/ is there a guide on how to set it up and get it running and how to actually read and understand your own logs?.

[Oltier 471]

Im very interested in the "logs" you keep mentioning, I know where they are and I have a account too, http://www.worldoflogs.com/ is there a guide on how to set it up and get it running and how to actually read and understand your own logs?.

There you go:

https://www.icy-veins.com/forums/topic/1007-world-of-logs-a-comprehensive-guide/