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Damien

Reforging gone - what do you think?

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So, reforging is going to be removed from the game. How do you guys feel about that?

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As a warrior I don't care much since Hit/Exp are gone too. As a caster with haste breakpoints this might be a bit more problematic though.

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I do like the idea of removing all the fuss around when you get a new item and you have to regem reforge completely. However, This might mean that I will be farming 1 boss for 1 year and I might get items that would be the best for me. As a fire mage I might find myself running around with full haste mastery set. Should I just switch to arcane then? :D

 

This will have to work on the secondary stats hard to optimize this. I'd say even if reforging was just you know... Let an addon do all the stuff, was the least annoying and still the most useful feature for your gear. I don't like it being removed as it also made the game again a bit dumber.

 

Sidenote... Did I spent 100k on a useless mount!?!?! :D

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Sidenote... Did I spent 100k on a useless mount!?!?! biggrin.png

 

Few quotes (don't take them too seriously) I heard during the Q&A:

 

"We could replace the Reforge Guy with:

-Transmog Guy

-Refund

-Vanilla servers

-Free transfer to alliance"

 

I know I missed some though :P

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I don't think removing reforging will be a big deal. With the stats squish most items in the test servers had like 20-30 on secondary stats. If we reforge 20% then will there really be that big of a difference reforging 6 crit into haste?

It seems to me like Blizzard is trying to do 2 things. By eliminating spec specific gear, and eliminate a lot of secondaries they are trying to make it a lot easier to gear up quickly with "good" gear. But the new tertiary stats and random sockets, and no reforging adds a new element of randomness to getting "the best" gear.

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I don't think removing reforging will be a big deal. With the stats squish most items in the test servers had like 20-30 on secondary stats. If we reforge 20% then will there really be that big of a difference reforging 6 crit into haste?

It seems to me like Blizzard is trying to do 2 things. By eliminating spec specific gear, and eliminate a lot of secondaries they are trying to make it a lot easier to gear up quickly with "good" gear. But the new tertiary stats and random sockets, and no reforging adds a new element of randomness to getting "the best" gear.

But relative to current gear that 20% would be the exact same value. It is equally important, people just don't see it as such because the numbers are much smaller...the scale is the exact same. I think reforging being removed is a very bad idea, even more so when they have 6 statistics they've mentioned ON THE BUDGET...

 

With the addition of 3 new stats, there simply isn't a way they can itemize fairly across an entire raid so at least one spec doesn't get screwed over stacking crit damage when their best stat is actually mastery, etc.

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True 20% is 20%, but if you're reforging crit into mastery, or haste into crit , etc then you're already not wearing optimal gear. Reforging just takes a little bit of the edge off wearing the wrong gear. I think what they're trying to do is give people a reason to farm the same bosses for weeks or months to get the best itemized gear and even then to always have better bonus stats that may randomly drop. I kind of like the extra randomness as long as mystic is tuned to be at least possible with roughly the sort of gear you can get from 1-2 weeks of gearing up in normal and heroic. Then all the perfect itemized bonus socketed third stat gear is just a bonus.

They've already said they also want all future raids to be less linear. Even to the extent where after you've killed the last boss you may get a key to just jump directly to the last boss and skip the rest of the raid if you want to. Since you no longer have to do bosses if you don't want to, they needed some extra incentive to keep people farming bosses.

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My fear is that gear will end up being like it was in Diablo III - if it doesn't roll with exactly the right stats out of XXXXXXX possibilities, then it's worthless. Random stat rolls are all right for leveling greens, and it would be cool if occasionally you got a green that was good enough, stat wise, for the first tier of raiding, because it rolled with an extra stat or rolled a high amount, the way that some lower ilvl Diablo items are better than legendaries.

 

I am not so enthused by the idea of random stat rolls on epic drops that you're supposed to be using for end-game content. They've done it now with both Battlefield: Barrens and Timeless Isle, and it's a flat-out bad idea. Timeless Isle is less bad because at least it chooses some kind of roll that you can use for your spec of choice, but it's still bad.

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Other than QQing about my mount being ruined I'm a bit unsure about reforging.

 

I appreciate that with the added help of optimizers and websites like Ask Mr. Robot that it became a bit nullified, but I actually "enjoyed" the fact I could almost self optimise and spend some time doing it.

 

It always meant that even if an item with "bad" stats on it did drop, you could always get some use out of it.

 

I'm more worried about the fact that without it, and with the loss of hit and expertise, that stats are going to be almost "dumbed down" to such an extent that gear becomes less valuable.

 

Obviously upgrades are upgrades, but personally with more stats and the ability to reforge it felt that you were more "involved" in the gearing process.  You could argue that by having no reforging you need to become more involved in the hunt for gear but at the moment I think its a negative step.

 

Please note that I havent fully read up on any of the announcements yet so I may be wrong in all of my assumptions but I honestly feel its just another step towards a dumbed down version.

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You'll still have gems and enchants to substantially optimize your gear. Reforging was just one extra money sink, and as a DPS or especially a tank, you spent a large chunk of your stat budget just trying to make sure you got as close to the hit and expertise caps as you could without going over. Meanwhile, the top raiders actively sought out the most ideal pieces of gear for their class so they had to reforge as little as possible anyway.

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The thing with the random stats though is that they tune the fights for having just the normal drops. So anything extra you get is just a bonus. They've also said that bonus sockets and 3rd stats will be fairly rare. And the 3rd stats aren't anything major, they're things like movement speed, no durability loss, or a small bonus to aoe.

Nobody will "need" the best most perfect random bonus gear. It's just something that could possibly give you a reason to keep running heroic even after your group is working on mystic.

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You'll still have gems and enchants to substantially optimize your gear. Reforging was just one extra money sink, and as a DPS or especially a tank, you spent a large chunk of your stat budget just trying to make sure you got as close to the hit and expertise caps as you could without going over. Meanwhile, the top raiders actively sought out the most ideal pieces of gear for their class so they had to reforge as little as possible anyway.

Gear will have fewer gem slots (if any at all) and enchants will be focused with more options to fewer pieces. The meta gem is gone as well.

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Gear will have fewer gem slots (if any at all) and enchants will be focused with more options to fewer pieces. The meta gem is gone as well.

If meta gems are gone, then why were those that have done the legendary quest line given a legendary meta gem???? Then what will happen when this rolls through, are all of out reforges going to be gone? Or the enchants and gems?

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If meta gems are gone, then why were those that have done the legendary quest line given a legendary meta gem???? Then what will happen when this rolls through, are all of out reforges going to be gone? Or the enchants and gems?

I wouldn't worry that much. The same way as old helm enchants are still there, the current gear won't lose stuff (I'd wager). No WoD gear just will have them and you either won't be able to craft them anymore or they enchants will have a ilvl cap.

What is interesting is how much of a squish will happen with current gear compared to pre raid stuff in WoD. Current gear with the excess gemslots after squish might actually be pretty strong at least going to the 1st tier of WoD raids.

We'll most likely be able to check these in beta when it comes, so wouldn't worry too much at the moment. Plenty of MoP still left so no need to worry about these when there just isn't info out yet. And all info that is can be changed numerous times before WoD anyway.

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As a caster with haste breakpoints this might be a bit more problematic though.

With dropping dot snapshotting they aim to get rid of haste breakpoints also, so that won't be an issue.

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With dropping dot snapshotting they aim to get rid of haste breakpoints also, so that won't be an issue.

 

Source?

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We were discussing it at BlizzCon with Vlad and it does seem that Blizzard is trying to focus more and more on the gameplay in their games. Like in Hearthstone or Heroes of the Storm, there is not going to be any build-up period. As soon as you begin the game, the action starts. It looks as if they want to do the same thing with WoW and remove some of the aspects that have nothing to do with playing, such as optimizing your gear.

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We were discussing it at BlizzCon with Vlad and it does seem that Blizzard is trying to focus more and more on the gameplay in their games. Like in Hearthstone or Heroes of the Storm, there is not going to be any build-up period. As soon as you begin the game, the action starts. It looks as if they want to do the same thing with WoW and remove some of the aspects that have nothing to do with playing, such as optimizing your gear.

 

Although I may be in the minority, I believe that things like earning gold, optimizing your gear and making yourself "raid ready" is half of the fun!

 

I understand their stand point that players shouldnt always need to visit third party websites (cough) in order to be competitive but I've always found that research and time spent before the playing part makes it much more immersive and much more enjoyable.

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Source?

Not an official source, but I think you would take this nonetheless.  You remember the Warlock from Vigil we talked to on Friday?  He talked to a system designer and posted on MMO-Champ

 

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1388180-Discussion-with-Lead-System-Designer-Kris-Zierhut?p=23422661&viewfull=1#post23422661

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Hmm, if that's true that's amazing.  Not sure why they didn't do that earlier and save everyone a headache.  Make your DPS based on your skill at your rotation rather than balancing around haste rating numbers.

 

I agree with a lot of people that say these changes to DoT's dumb down the game, but it also opens up different avenues of complexity that Blizzard can implement.  I'm pretty excited to see more class changes.

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I mean, the problem with removing snapshotting is that it makes the game less fun for the people with the higher skill-cap.  Instead of trying to get DoT's/HoT's at high levels of damage/healing

 

The most complex thing they have to think about is if they want to refresh a dot so it lasts the duration of a proc instead of falling off before the proc wears off.  It just takes away the reward for actually playing the class more advanced. 

 

Also, by removing snapshotting they have to compensate all HoT/DoT classes by buffing them slightly AND making them all dynamically change the damage values based on your procs even after you've applied them.  Otherwise, there would be no reason for trinket procs and the like.

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The point I was trying to convey was that *because* they're removing snapshotting they're opening up new ways to make classes fun and as complex as they are now, if not more.  It's too difficult to balance classes that are stupid good at taking advantage of a trinket proc far after the proc has ended.

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Not an official source, but I think you would take this nonetheless.  You remember the Warlock from Vigil we talked to on Friday?  He talked to a system designer and posted on MMO-Champ

 

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1388180-Discussion-with-Lead-System-Designer-Kris-Zierhut?p=23422661&viewfull=1#post23422661

Thanks, that's the place. Should have put the link in my first post, but was lazy and didn't find the actual message in the thread with a glance.

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I talked to Kris Zierhut too about other things and he was like really cool.

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If they were to take reforging out of the game, which based on the comments above it looks like it is a definite thing. Then I think that they need to come up with separate gear that fits the spec of the toon that you are playing. Oltier stated he played a fire mage which requires haste, I play an arcane mage which requires mastery I should see less haste gear drop for my toon and only be getting gear that is useful for my spec, and that goes for Oltier as well. Taking reforging out of the game creates a lot of problems for us casters...

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