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Ghanjo

Haste caps for Arcane

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According to AMR with no haste cap set, if I get my BiS heroic non-warforged gear, I'll be at 14153 haste. Would you recommend changing the haste soft cap up or down? I'm trying to make a BiS list for heroic gear, but I have no idea if I should keep the default AMR stat weight settings or change the haste soft cap to get the most out of my gear.

Edited by Gambolputty

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According to AMR with no haste cap set, if I get my BiS heroic non-warforged gear, I'll be at 14153 haste. Would you recommend changing the haste soft cap up or down? I'm trying to make a BiS list for heroic gear, but I have no idea if I should keep the default AMR stat weight settings or change the haste soft cap to get the most out of my gear.

I'd love if you could link your armory. smile.png

 

I'd love to know what spec, what trinket you have etcetc.

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Of course, here it all is:

 

Armory Link

 

I have normal versions of  inv_jewelry_orgrimmarraid_trinket_07.jpgPurified Bindings of Immerseus and inv_jewelry_orgrimmarraid_trinket_13.jpgKardris' Toxic Totem, and a heroic inv_jewelry_orgrimmarraid_trinket_15.jpgFrenzied Crystal of Rage that I swap in on cleave fights.

 

I'd like to have the heroic Bindings of Immerseus and the inv_jewelry_orgrimmarraid_trinket_02.jpgBlack Blood of Y'Shaarj for my BiS gear.

 

I have currently set my soft haste cap to 9762 to get four extra tics on Nether Temptest. I am not sure if it's a good idea, but it only cost me around 500 mastery to reach the haste cap, so I guess it's a good plan.

 

Is there a breakpoint somewhere, where haste becomes less valuable than crit?

 

EDIT: Arcane. I'm mainly playing Arcane.

Edited by Gambolputty

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If you get to BiS as arcane you are similar to frost in that you would want to hit 50% haste. However, you don't use frost armor, so that's a bit harder to achieve and should only be done if you get BBoY.

 

For arcane, haste is higher than crit until 50% haste, at which point the DPET gain of 1 point of crit exceeds 1 point of haste. I'm not as much an expert with arcane as I am frost, so I don't have fancy charts to back that up but it's what I understand.

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If you get to BiS as arcane you are similar to frost in that you would want to hit 50% haste. However, you don't use frost armor, so that's a bit harder to achieve and should only be done if you get BBoY.

 

So, if I get BiS gear, including Black Blood of Y'shaarj, it is better to sacrifice some mastery for haste to reach 50% haste?

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Are you sure that going for haste over mastery on a grand scale is a good idea? My initial question was whether it would sometimes be a good idea to sacrifice a bit of mastery to reach another haste break point (at least that was what I was trying to ask), but you seem to recommend that I change my stat prio to haste (to 50%) > mastery > crit > haste if I get BiS gear as arcane. Is that correct?

 

If I have that prio, AMR tells me that in non-warforged BiS gear I would get 18225 haste (50.03%) and 13006 mastery (80.21%).

 

If I make a BiS list with the default stat prio mastery > haste > crit I get 14153 haste (39.97%) and 19719 mastery (102.58%)

 

Sorry that I keep asking, but I haven't seen anyone else recommend reaching 50% haste, so I would really like to know why you recommend it. Or am I misunderstanding something?

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If you get to BiS as arcane you are similar to frost in that you would want to hit 50% haste. However, you don't use frost armor, so that's a bit harder to achieve and should only be done if you get BBoY.

 

Why not use frost armor for arcane as a baseline? If you can reforge out of haste (and usually you can) it seems as a much better option than mage armor as you get ~500 extra haste points that way.

1. Switch to frost armor

2. Make a soft haste breakpoint based on your current spell haste (and not on rating). You can do it with AMR by picking tick breakpoints or just type in the corresponding rating.

3. Refroge/regem

 

I'm not an expert on arcane either, but this seems very logical. Just checked with AMR soft capping at 50% haste with BiS gear and frost armor netted almost 3% more mastery (and even a little more leftover haste).

I understand that it's not always possible to do this, but when you can then it seems like a good option.

 

 

Sorry that I keep asking, but I haven't seen anyone else recommend reaching 50% haste, so I would really like to know why you recommend it. Or am I misunderstanding something?

As I see it (and I might be wrong), going for 50% haste is not a bad thing for arcane. I mean haste's potential is just about the same as mastery. The differences are:

1. 1% of haste costs more points than 1% of mastery

2. Playing arcane with high haste can be very punishing for mistakes which are related to mana management, while with high mastery much less so (instead it punishes movement mistakes, while haste is more forgiving on these). So if your mana management is top notch and you can quickly react to procs and stuff go for 50% haste, otherwise invest into mastery. I think that most people go to pure mastery builds because movement mistakes tend to be fewer after many wipes biggrin.png, but better mana management requires really upping your game.

Edited by lynx

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Sorry for the confusion, let me explain when you would and when you wouldn't use frost armor as arcane:

 

You would if:

-Your itemization is such that you have crit/mastery on nearly every item and

-You are high enough item level that you are able to reach 75% or more mastery unbuffed and

-You can only reach 14242 haste by using frost armor, or

-You can obtain more mastery by reaching the 14242 cap via frost armor and reforging into it

 

Otherwise, you would not. AMR will sometimes indicate a greater mastery gain via using frost armor, that's because you want every item reforged into mastery. If all your gear already has mastery on it, then it's easy. Otherwise, you may have a situation where it is detrimental to lose potential mastery in favor of hitting a haste cap.

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Are you sure that going for haste over mastery on a grand scale is a good idea? My initial question was whether it would sometimes be a good idea to sacrifice a bit of mastery to reach another haste break point (at least that was what I was trying to ask), but you seem to recommend that I change my stat prio to haste (to 50%) > mastery > crit > haste if I get BiS gear as arcane. Is that correct?

 

If I have that prio, AMR tells me that in non-warforged BiS gear I would get 18225 haste (50.03%) and 13006 mastery (80.21%).

 

If I make a BiS list with the default stat prio mastery > haste > crit I get 14153 haste (39.97%) and 19719 mastery (102.58%)

 

Sorry that I keep asking, but I haven't seen anyone else recommend reaching 50% haste, so I would really like to know why you recommend it. Or am I misunderstanding something?

Some part of your confusion may be that you're looking at unbuffed stats. This is why I hate the use of percentages in these discussions. If you stick to ratings, then the assumptions can be made independently of raid buffs altering the number itself.

 

14242 is 50% raid buffed w/frost armor.

 

50% unbuffed w/mage armor is 18225 haste rating and you don't want to do that.

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Thanks for the explanations. I got my question answered now. Thank you very much.

Just a small note on your last post, 18225 equals 50% haste WITH raid buff, would need 21250 haste to get it with mage armor and no raid buff.

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