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Phaia

Retribution Haste Problems

16 posts in this topic

I've read that my haste should be around 40% - right now I'm restricted to Flex due to by item level - but I've regemmed and reforged as best I can and upgraded what I know I can but I can't seem to break 28% - as a result my DPS is suffering from it, I was wondering if anyone might be able to give me some advice or any help towards what might be my best alternative to fix the low haste issue.

 

For reference this is my Paladin:

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/stormrage/Ciar%C3%A0/simple

 

Also this is 28% unbuffed, with raid buffs I sit at 41.59%

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For your ilvl everything looks pretty good. Gemming-wise I would put pure haste gems in yellow/prismatic sockets (only your shoulders and belt I believe) and change your str/haste gems to expertise/haste. If you can jump into some normal ToT runs you can snag Spark of Zandalar off Horridon to replace your talisman for a nice haste boost until you can get a Galakras trinket. Other than that all you can do is farm some more flex gear, pug some early normal bosses, and work on your legendary cloak so you can try for warforged gear from Ordos.

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Hi Phaia smile.png hope you're having a wonderful holiday so far.

 

Taking a look at your gear, the problem we seem to be facing is just simply this, your gear doesn't have enough haste. A lot of your gear is reforged INTO haste, which is why you're lacking. There's really not much you can do outside of hoping for gear to drop for you. At low ilvls hitting that 40% haste cap can be rather difficult, and I'd even go as far as to suggest pure haste gemming. 

 

As for your gems: You made the PERFECT call with your boots. Anything less than +120*Stat, you should lose the socket bonus and pure gem. For your sword and ring, I'd put a solid haste gem in there, though for your ring you could keep it since it's a str+haste gem (if you change it to exp+haste, might as well make it a solid haste gem).

 

So: The problem is you just don't have the gear, try to get some solid upgrades with haste, and if you have to, downgrade, the crafted plate gear really isn't that good for ret and sacrificing ilvl for haste could potentially be more helpful, and just remember +60*stat isn't worth the socket bonus, unless it's haste! 

 

Hope this was a little bit helpful and I hope you have a wonderful holiday smile.png

 

p.s. remember, Raid buff is %attack speed, not #haste, it won't affect your cds at all so don't use it as a base for reforging and gemming.

 

 

To add - Use bonus rolls for Iron Juggernaut and Kor'kron Dark Shamans, the belt and boots off of those bosses are the BiS for ret.

Edited by Auriel
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535 Timeless gear is great if you get Haste/Hit or Haste/Exp. Timeless pieces with pure haste have only about 60% of the stats they could have so they're fairly bad comparitevly, so try to get some haste timeless gear when you're out of raids.

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Hey Auriel, hope you have a good christmas too, and thanks!

 

I was looking at the Trillium gear earlier today and was really thinking along those lines too that sacraficing the ilvl for haste pieces out of SoO flex would be better - obviously getting my cloak would be preferred, it's still a work in progress so soon hopefully.

 

I know my lack of true haste gear is a big problem and reforging into it is simply a bandaid fix, it's been the position I've been kinda backed into due to the pieces I actually need not dropping, due to difficulty in finding actual raiding guilds that can fit my schedule on my server I've been trying to buff my ilvl enough to get into SoO pugs in hopes of getting normal SoO drops that would compliment my spec.

 

Thanks for your help as well as your insight into my choice of gemming, I know it's not ideal but I'm also trying to make up for what I'm lacking, while my DPS isn't terrible, proper gear and more ideal gemming would make it even better, I can normally pull top 5 on melee friendly fights, but with a much better optimized DPS in the raid I really don't stand much of a chance against that, so I guess the main focus right now is more of a sidegrade situation, I've done Iron Juggernaut and Shamans for this lockout, so hopefully after reset I can get lucky and get a drop off of one of the two, the boots from Dark Shamans would be a huge help for me right now.

 

I'll look at another regemming effort later this week, and do a pure haste regem on my sword, I'll also try and get a Flex or Normal Seal of Forgotten Kings, it will be a minor improvement but still an improvement and try and get the ring from Blackfuse to replace my other one from the protectors.

 

Thanks for your help, I'll have to get back into raids later this week and hope for the best!

Edited by Phaia

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I've read that my haste should be around 40% - right now I'm restricted to Flex due to by item level - but I've regemmed and reforged as best I can and upgraded what I know I can but I can't seem to break 28% - as a result my DPS is suffering from it, ...

 

First of all, Strength is your primary attribute, and Haste is your principal (but not only) secondary attribute. 40% Haste may be a desirable target, but the goal is not to maximize Haste, the goal is to maximize your PC's DPS. That is affected by many things, not just "Haste".

 

I suggest that you read the very first post in the discussion thread for Retribution Paladins at Elitist Jerks:

 

http://forums.elitistjerks.com/index.php?/page/articles.html/_/world-of-warcraft/paladin/ret-54-mop-retribution-concordance-retcon-r85

 

Of course, reaching the Hit cap and the Expertise cap (for the spec) are your first priorities. Once you have done that, you want to maintain them while you reforge what you otherwise do not need (from Hit, Critical Strike, Expertise and Mastery) to Haste.

 

Nonetheless, reforging software at web sites which I have used does not reforge all Mastery to Haste, and sometimes none at all. The same is true for Critical Strike. The apparent reason is that the "stat weights" that are used in the calculations do not lead to the conclusion that reforging all of the Mastery (and/or the Critical Strike) to Haste will increase DPS.

 

Do not neglect STR in gemming and enchanting. For Tier 14 Raid Gear and higher tiers, I quote the OP on Elitist Jerks:

 

Gemming Str + Haste (Fierce) Orange in Red sockets, full Haste (Quick) in Yellow sockets, and Hit + Haste (Lightning) in Blue sockets yields more dps than going full Str gems. 160 Str vs (320 Haste * 0.54 Str-equivalent per Haste) = 160 Str vs 172.8 Str-equivalent. This will only increase as gear gets better.

Otherwise you want to continue to gem as much Str as possible for the same reasoning as above.

 

Please note that the writer does not say that all sockets should always be gemmed for Haste alone. It is necessary to consider socket bonuses for STR as well.

 

More to the point, when you increase the total Haste for any particular combination of gear, that can reduce its value relative to STR so that there is a point at which STR increases DPS more than increasing Haste does. This also applies to evaluating the effects of Mastery and Critical Strike.

 

Be aware: there are no universal solutions, because maximizing DPS does depend upon the exact details of the gear that you equip (which is reflected in its "stat weights"), as explained in the Elistist Jerks OP.

 

Another resource: Ask Mr. Robot can make very good recommendations, but you need to be aware of their assumptions as to what you need. Especially, both Ask Mr. Robot and Elitist Jerks are focused on optimizing gear for the patterns of combat that are typical of traditional raids.

 

In contrast, if you are fond of fighting "mini-bosses" and "rares" distributed around Pandaria, then you are going to need a bit more Expertise to prevent the Level 91 & 92 hostiles from parrying your attacks. The same is true for Timeless Isle and any other circumstances in which there is no "tank" to face the boss while your Retribution Paladin attacks the boss from behind.

 

In any case, I hope that these remarks are helpful to you and to others, because this is a very difficult subject to master.

Edited by Stardance

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Currently, my haste is at 28% - the problem is if I regemmed to strength and haste it would fall even further below what it is currently (which I have tried, and took a substantial hit to my DPS)  - alot of my gear pieces don't naturally have haste and it has to be reforged into the gear, thus creating multiple other problems I'm having to deal with.

 

Overall, if I were to change my gems out and go completely strength/haste gems, my DPS would be even more dismally low than it currently is, due to the fact that even with full haste gemming I'm only able to get around 28% haste, even then I can't break into the 30-32% margin, alot of it is gearing and also the fact that currently I am unable to gain access to normal SoO bosses and gear due to item level restrictions as well as the gearing problems I have previously listed in this forum post.

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Frankly, I am not yet familiar with gear above iLevel 535 or so. Nonetheless, from what I have seen so far, I doubt that it is possible to actually reach 40% Haste. That you have 28% Haste solely by reforging is remarkable to me. You've inspired me to review the Elitist Jerks OP for Retribution Paladins, and I need to study it some more.

 

Phaia, it looks to me as though your gear is currently gemmed for Strength and Haste, so I do not understand the opening remark in your most recent post. When there is enough Hit on your gear to reach the Hit cap, then the following rules of thumb apply:

 

* Red sockets should have Fierce Vermilion Onyx (+80 Str & +160 Haste), or Wicked VO (+160 Expertise & +160 Haste) if you need the Expertise. The Precise Primordial Ruby (+320 Expertise) can be useful, too, in combination with the Fierce VO.

 

* Yellow sockets should have Quick Sun's Radiance (+320 Haste).

 

* Blue sockets should have Forceful Wild Jade (+160 Haste & +120 STA) or Puissant WJ (+160 Mastery & +120 STA). Lightning WJ (+160 Haste & +160 Hit) should only be used if you need the Hit to reach the Hit cap.

 

* Prismatic sockets should have Quick Sun's Radiance (+320 Haste) unless you need another gem to satisfy the Hit and/or the Expertise caps.

 

In general, I would not use any gem that has Hit or Expertise unless I do need that stat. It cannot be reforged, thus it is likely to become surplus, and it can affect which pieces are reforged. (This also applies to enchanting, i.e., do not enchant to add Hit or Expertise unless you must do so to reach the respective caps.)

 

With regard to the gear with which your Paladin is currently equipped:

 

(1) What "stat weights" are you using for reforging? They are the basic values which determine the outcome of the algorithims that reforging software uses.

 

Under the topic "Valuable Resources" on the Elitist Jerks OP, Exemplar recommends Simulation Craft or his "MoP Retribution Paladin Spreadsheet" (Excel with macros). I have not used either of them myself, yet, but I surmise that the best stat weights are derived for your specific gear with one of those tools.

 

(2) Replace the Snowpad Signet with a ring that has Haste and Mastery, Haste with Critical Strike, or Haste with Expertise. Any item with only Haste is usually a last resort insofar as the amount of Haste ordinarily leaves part of the "stat budget" for the piece unused. But it is better than one with Hit unless you need the Hit, in particular. "Surplus" Expertise is more acceptable because your PC is unlikely to make each and every attack from behind the target in each and every circumstance.

 

(3) I would Enchant the boots with Haste instead of anything that promises a movement speed gain. Paladins increase movement speed with Tier 1 Talents and/or maybe with a potion. :-)

 

(4) I cannot determine for sure which colors the sockets have on the Helmet and on the Sword, respectively. However, the gem with +160 Haste & +160 Hit should be replaced with one that has Haste but not Hit, as described in the advice for gemming that I offer above. If replacing either one (or both) does reduce your total Hit below the cap, then keep the one you're using.

 

Otherwise, I look forward to having your problems if ever my Paladin is equipped with the gear that you have. :-)

Edited by Stardance

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In perfect gear you can reach 50%, it took a 572 paladin for me to first see it. Around 540 or so you should expect to be at 33%, so 28% isn't bad at 528, though you can do better.

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@Fouton: tha's interesting. I didn't know that iLevels went as high as 572 (!) yet. I would like to see the stats on the gear, and the reforging -- if any -- that was needed to hit 50% Haste.

 

Usually, sockets on STR gear are for red gems, with few for yellow or blue. I'd bet that the PC is either a blacksmith with Prismatic sockets on the bracers and gauntlets, or a jewelcrafter with Serpent's Eye gems. Regardless, gems and enchants can only do so much, and the bulk of Haste or any other attribute must come from the stats on the gear.

 

In my experience, the gear that a player's PC has obtained and can, perhaps, possilbly obtain is more often a matter of luck than skill or knowledge. You can do the research via Wowhead to find out where the BiS -- with respect to the gearing model that you want to use -- can be obtained. Whether you can and will actually get it is another matter.

 

So the challenge is to make the most of what you have. If you can do that, there's no reason to be disgruntled or to feel inferior and stress-out about it. A great set of gear optimized for damage, protection, or healing is no guarantee of success. We cannot forget that it is how the player performs in a raid, in each of the various fights, which ultimately has the greatest influence on the outcome.

Edited by Stardance

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@Fouton: Thanks for the link. It is indeed interesting to examine. The highest iLevel on his gear is the iLevel 608 legendary cloak. The current iLevel for the entire gear is calculated as 571 equipped, 574 overall.

 

For a start, his professions are blacksmithing and jewelcrafting. The first allows him to add a socket to the bracers and gauntlets, the second allows him to add sockets to his rings and to use Sepent's Eye gems. The socket on his sword and cloak, respectively, result from his allegiance to the Black Prince and completing the corresponding Legendary quest line.

 

It is noteworthy that he drops STR bonuses on five pieces, four in favor of Quick Sun's Radiance for +320 Haste, and one in favor of a Critical Strike gem.

 

I suppose that last one is the result of running Simulation Craft, which persuaded him to increase his DPS by reducing Haste and favoring Critical Strike. Further, the legplates are enchanted for Critical Strike and have two +320 Critical Strike gems, which gives him the STR bonus. The total Haste now shown by the armory is 45.7%.

 

There are one or two other changes he could make to favor Critical Strike, too, without reducing  Haste. But he might be using the pieces in his tanking spec and not want to change them.

 

People say that Thok's Tail Tip (trinket) changes the DPS balance from Mastery > Critical Strike to  Critical Strike > Mastery. Personally, I am not sure that I would use it, unless it is more appropriate for the gear that I equip. I've had some interesting fights while I favored Crit. :-)

 

If nothing else, I reckon that this illustrates the value of Simulation Craft (SimC). It also affirms what I said before, that the object of gemming, enchanting and reforging is not to favor Haste (or any other attribute). The object is to maximize your DPS. The basic thing you need to do is use a tool like SimC to evaluate the "stat weights" for the specific gear with which your PC is equipped.

 

By the way, if I may ask: what do you mean by "the 50% Global CD cap"? I'm not sure of what the "Global Cooldown" is, specificly, and, accordingly, that its value has a cap makes no sense.

Edited by Stardance

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The Global Cooldown is what people call the wait time between spells. With 0 haste you must wait 1.5s between spells. Every class has their GCD reduced by their haste by stats, multiplied by other haste buffs (heroism, etc), but does not get affected by the basic melee/spell haste buff)

 

The calculation for your Global Cooldown is:

 

GCD = 1.5 / ( (1 + (haste% / 100)) * other haste buffs)

 

however the GCD cannot go under 1 second, therefore any haste past 50% from gear is wasted on this, which won't speed up your attacks. It will still help lower the CD of abilities longer than 1.5 seconds, such as Crusader Strike, but overall it just isn't as strong, and past  50% spells stop lining up well. It's basically the point where haste is indefinitely worse than other stats.

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@ Fouton: Thank-you for the explanation, and the formula. There are sooooo many details to remember and the information is scattered in bits and pieces across the Internet (!). For what it is worth, I worked many years as a Systems Analyst, designing and writing software. It was an easier job than playing WoW.

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You are also lacking an amp trinket, and also well below hit and expertise cap, you really don't need to worry about min-maxing unless you're doing end content raiding which is when you'll start to get optimal stats and such. But I'd focus on getting your hit and exp up as they are very important to your dps.

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