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Joxxer

Conveyor belt woes =(

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Hello, I do not have any logs to provide but I am hoping to find some general advice on how to handle dpsing the conveyor belt adds. On flex I am having trouble dpsing down the adds on the belt consistently as the fight goes on (for some reason I am able to get it down on my first time through). My question is, how do you all more experienced locks handle the belt? Conflag + Incinerate spam does not seem like enough at my ilvl for the belt add. Should I be saving a potion or Dark Souls for it? How many embers should I be holding onto before going on the belt? Is conflag to Chaos bolt okay like one might do on Thok during the silences? I can do the engineer on Garrosh just fine but that does not require me to move and cast while dodging fire beams.

 

Any tips or advice would be appreciated.

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When my raid leader said "Locky on odd belts" I said "Oi, fuck that. Im sitting on the boss and killing the mines. Put the Hillbilly (our hunter) on the belt."

 

Warlocks are MUCH better suited to being on the lower platform, killing the boss and handling the adds/missiles. IF you're truly the last option and you HAVE to be on the belt then I'd treat it the same as anything else, Conflag+insin spam with CBs on procs.

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If you are being forced onto the belt (like me) then I might recommend swapping to Affliction if you have a lower ilvl. That worked out really well for me, because with KJC and Malefic Grasp, you can keep damage rolling on your target really late through the end. just keep haunt up on the target with your diseases and you should have little issue killing an add each belt.

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I'd recommend Archimonde's Darkness as Affliction. Gives you a charge each time you go up. Just roll buffed dots and spam fel flame/haunt.

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A few ideas from a destrolock.

1. Have 3 embers ready.

2. Havoc seige crafter before hitting the pipe.

3. Burning rush to the "gate" and open with chaos bolt.

4. Use sac pact and soak beams if need be, cbolt and sburn.

5. Use a prepared teleport to get back to the main platform.

6. Ember up for the next go.

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3. Burning rush to the "gate" and open with chaos bolt.

4. Use sac pact and soak beams if need be, cbolt and sburn.

 

I wouldn't advise BR as there is enough raid wide damage that the healers don't really need one more source. It's easy enough to plan ahead and not need it.

 

SacPac soaking is only viable in LFR, Flex, Reg. Do NOT try this in Heroic.

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A few ideas from a destrolock.

4. Use sac pact and soak beams if need be, cbolt and sburn.

Ain't happening on Heroic, bud.  Does 900M damage or something.

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I wouldn't advise BR as there is enough raid wide damage that the healers don't really need one more source. It's easy enough to plan ahead and not need it.

 

SacPac soaking is only viable in LFR, Flex, Reg. Do NOT try this in Heroic.

JINX

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5. Use a prepared teleport to get back to the main platform.

 

Awesome, I am going to do this everytime.

 

Thank you everyone for taking the time to wiegh in on this. I have a few more tools in my belt now to deal with the adds and I am looking forward to trying them out and experimenting.

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Why are you Jinxing?  His post is first wink.png

Time stamps are at the same time. 

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Ain't happening on Heroic, bud.  Does 900M damage or something.

OP specifically mentions Flex, so I'm pretty sure this isn't going to be an issue.

 

OP: I make sure I either save 3 embers or Dark Soul before going up to the belt. Either of those should be enough, assuming you're planting yourself in the gaps between the lasers.

 

Also, if you're doing flex with 15+ people, you might want to consider having a belt partner (depending on your gear).

Edited by Belloc

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KJ's cunning would be recommended. Really for most fights in general. There are only a few bosses where you don't have to move a lot.

Basically, as you are jumping into the belt, you'll be able to look and see where exactly the beams are. You'll want to aim yourself so that you won't be hitting the first one. Start running forward until the belt add of your choice comes into view. If you have positioned yourself correctly, you will have enough time to cast two chaos bolts before having to move for the second beam.

I've personally found that two chaos bolts and a shadow burn are enough to kill the add in my ten man group, no cool downs needed. You may also want to take GoSac for that fight specifically, as your chaos bolts will do additional damage as a dot. I only resort to incinerate while I'm dodging beams. The CB damage should be good enough (though you may need three, depending on gear. Assuming that you are stacking as much mastery as possible.)

 

I'm not sure what kind of warlock complains about going on the belts. It's actually very easy for us. 

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The kind of warlock that complains are the ones that know that their class is better used elsewhere in that fight. There are other classes that don't have the kind of burst aoe that locks do, that would be better suited to deal with conveyor belt, while locks blow up crawler mines/etc. It has nothing to do with being difficult for locks, but more to do with efficient use of your group.

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The kind of warlock that complains are the ones that know that their class is better used elsewhere in that fight. There are other classes that don't have the kind of burst aoe that locks do, that would be better suited to deal with conveyor belt, while locks blow up crawler mines/etc. It has nothing to do with being difficult for locks, but more to do with efficient use of your group.

Everything you're saying makes perfect sense... for a heroic group.

Keep in mind that the vast majority of groups are normal mode groups or heroic groups that aren't currently working on Siegecrafter. For those groups, there should be more focus on who can get the job done than who has a class better suited for the job. There's a very good reason, after all, that we don't all just have Hunters or Druids solo the belt every single time.

 

For my last 10-man group, I was either asked or I volunteered for the Conveyer Belt since I had experience with it on Flex. From the first time I did it with that 10-man, I became one of the two people always assigned to the belt. Why? Because I could get to the belt on time and kill the add with time to spare every single time. The alternative would've been to teach someone else how to do the job and maybe have them not show up the next week (whereas I cannot remember ever missing a raid). I was reliable, competent, and I got the job done. Would the boss have died faster if I would've been on the platform full time? Yup! Did the boss still die every time? Yup!

 

TL;DR: Your response is perfectly fine for a group working on heroic Siegecrafter, but completely irrelevant for every other group out there (which makes up the vast majority of groups).

 

P.S. This is one of my biggest complaints with heroic raiders. The OP is asking for help regarding the belt on Flex difficulty, not normal or heroic. But heroic raiders will come in and say "warlocks should never be on the belt!" Bullshit. Whoever the raid leader wants on the belt should be on the belt. Heroic raiders have some excellent advice to give, but it's always skewed and biased based on their personal experience. That kind of advice is helpful to no one, least of all the OP. He wants help with the belt so give him help with the belt. Let his raid leader figure out everything else, because it's not your place.

Edited by Belloc

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I'll refrain from offering you any help then, I wouldn't want to offend you.

 

Heroic raiders help in the only way we know how to help. By giving the most strategically and/or mathematically correct answer that we've found so far. This is how progression raiders are, we look for the best answer and stick to it like glue.

 

Personally, I've been doing bleed edge progression raiding for so long that I can't think in terms of LFR, Flex, or Reg only. My brain sees a problem and I have to fix it perfectly.

 

From what I quickly saw the heroic raiders either gave a flex/reg answer or at least gave a duel answer that provided information that can be used across the levels of play.

 

This is one of my biggest complaints about a lot of casual raiders, when I or friends of mine take time out of our days to try and offer some advice that will better another person as a player or help someones raid push a little further or even just make this LFR that I'm already doing the DPS of 5 other people in a little easier, sometimes they just spit that back in our faces. Most heroic raiders aren't mean, we aren't the elitist pricks that we are often portrayed as. Granted there are bad apples but as a whole most of us just want to be left alone or genuinely want to help people for no other reason than that we can.

 

You don't have to use our help, you don't have to acknowledge it, you don't have to thank us, but the least you can do is not insult us. 

 

Allow me to point out one of the major downfalls of heroic raider advice. See the Icy-Veins raid guides? They're made with information provided by Midwinter, one of the top raiding guilds in the world. Those guides, made with Midwinter's information, had several major heroic omissions that they were essentially worthless for any guild currently progressing. I pointed out some of those omissions and they were fixed. Problem solved. But who created that problem? A top-tier guild that was offering advice.

 

Does that make the problem clear? When heroic raiders provide advice from atop their pedestal, they fail to realize that that advice often has no value to the person asking for help. Look at Vipple's post (the one I quoted) and you'll see exactly what I mean. This is a thread about Flex conveyer belts and he's talking about how Warlocks have no place being assigned to conveyer belts. I pointed out that his advice was sound for a guild working on the heroic fight, but completely worthless for the OP.

 

Speaking of which, I wasn't talking to YOU at all, and yet you replied as though I had offended you. YOUR advice in this thread (as well as plenty of the other posts) was perfectly fine. You provided information that you thought would help the OP and, from my perspective, you were right on. If you thought that my post was in any way directed at you, you were mistaken.

 

As far as saying that you've been a bleeding edge raider for however long? That's irrelevant and somewhat condescending. You're assuming that I'm a casual raider -- I'm not. I've raid lead my way to a realm first achievement, I competed for server firsts during early Cataclysm, and I'm currently in a 3-day 9/14h raiding guild. I'm not bleeding edge, but I'm not casual. I came to this forum because Zagam and company (Yourself included, I'm sure) were offering excellent advice and I've been nothing but appreciative on that. I do not, however, appreciate it when someone asks for help and it turns into a discussion on how that person (or their class) shouldn't even be doing that job. That is of no value to the discussion.

 

I also don't buy the whole "I can't think in terms of LFR/Flex/Normal" thing. You were doing normal recently enough and, if memory serves, you're currently doing it on your tank. Flex is the same as normal, for all intents and purposes. You can think in those terms just fine and that's exactly what YOU did when YOU posted. Grats. Again, I wasn't directing what I said to you.

 

Finally, the only part of my post that had any ire in it, really, was the "P.S." part. Even that, however, was rather tame. Certainly not enough for you or anyone else to get butthurt about it. It wasn't insulting -- it was frank and honest. I was simply pointing out that, if you're going to help someone, help them on their terms. When I give advice to normal raiders, I think back to how I did it on normal and consider how long it has taken them to get there and try to give advice based on those details. If I can't do that, then I don't post.

 

That's all I've got. I'm sorry if I offended you, but I wasn't even targeting my post at you. Your posts were actually helpful.

Edited by Belloc

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The point in me saying not to do it in heroic is to not develop bad habits in Flex or normal and then have to change later.  It's not about being pretentious or elitist, and anyone who's been on these forums for any amount of time can tell you that's not how we do things here.  Sorry you've become offended.  If you feel like things are missing from any of the guides or strategies, you could be productive and offer advice rather than just insulting/complaining.

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About the "you clearly do think in normal when you do normals on your tank" thing... we don't, actually. There's a couple times we will pull a boss and expect a heroic mechanic to be there that isn't, or have to ask, "hey, does <X mechanic> happen in normal, too?" When heroic raiders go into normals and flexes on alts, they're still doing them with heroic strats and positioning for the most part. Why? It's prep work, like Zag just said. We don't want to develop bad habits that carry on later when we go to heroics. We, here, give advice to be the best you can be. People come here because they want to become better. No one comes here just wanting to barely scrape by. If so, they'd go read Noxxic and play their class to 40%.

 

There are several locks here, including myself, that were limited by various constraints to only be doing normal modes and then got to make the transition to downing heroic bosses. Even when I was doing those normals, I made our raid group do everything the best way we could possibly come up with so that we could fit everything into a tiny schedule. Even someone that comes here only doing flex will likely eventually want to do normals and possibly a heroic or two before the expansion hits. It's all in the love. You should come let us hug you, because I think you need hugs.

Edited by Kazistrasz
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I personally helped provide a lot of the early information about the heroics. So did a lot of other people across a lot of play levels and a lot of guilds. There are going to be gaps though, nothing is perfect. I'm sorry our information did not meet your standards.

 

I was not being condescending at all, I made no assumptions about you at all. I was stating fact. Fact, I've killed world first bosses, world top five, US first, US top five, US top 10, US top 20, etc. I made no assumptions about your progression or your skill level, I was providing context for my views and insight in to what leads to the way that I think the way I think. My brain only looks at fights with a min/max way and normally only looking at what *my* part of the fight is, at least until I need to think about other parts of the fight. Until then most of my understanding of a fight is limited to what *I* need to know and what *I* need to do. A lot of fights I go all tier without learning what the healer does or what the tank does since it simply does not effect me in anyway, as long as those other people do their jobs right.

 

So when I look at Blackfuse, I don't even think about the belt. Because I know that warlocks are by far better on the mines/missles/etc rather then going on the belt. Or on my tank, I don't even look at the mines/missles or the belt since that has nothing to do with my tanking. Either way, I block out everything but what *my* job is, focusing and perfecting that. This is my kung-fu, and it is strong.

 

As for normals, I really just don't plan for them. Up until a month ago I had only done the first 10 fights on normal one time. I cleared 9/14 heroic in the first week that heroics were out, and then farmed those heroics for weeks as we worked on heroics #10, 11, 12. So normal mechanics never even touched my mind, we blew through that first week of normals in one and a half raid nights. What mechanics we did think though we were planing for heroics, so we treated every boss with a min/max view planing on it being harder and longer to prep for the weeks to come.

 

My monk, who is doing normals weekly, still doesn't look at them with the plan for normals only. We still treat every mechanic with the thought "what is BEST for this" i.e., not sending our warlock on to the belt since he is more useful down low. We normally send our rogue, mage, and hunter up. Because we look at what is "best" not "what works".

 

We, as a group, were helping the OP with their problem. In fact, we helped with the question and then took it a step further and offered advice in context. "You can do this, but it won't work in heroic so be ready for that. You might want to try option B because it can work in both" We offered aid, and then took it a step further because we're nice and like to give complete answers.

 

Even the few answers that were limited to telling the OP to just not to belts is still useful answers. A warlock CAN do the job, but it is normally better if it is handled by a mage or rogue or hunter and the warlock is allowed to do another job. If someone finds this information to be useless, they are likely not thinking about the big idea and are limiting themselves, and their raid, needlessly.

 

You repeatedly referred to "heroic raiders" with no limitations on the accusation, making it an all inclusive statement. Thus, grammatically, you were speaking in me when you said you had a problem with "heroic raiders" and that our advice was "always skewed and biased" and "that kind of advice was helpful to no one". Your words were offensive to me, and to many others that raids heroics and try to give back to the community. 

 

I'm good, but I'm not a mind reader. I have no way of knowing that when you say "heroic raiders" you really mean everyone but these four people.

 

A lot of us put a lot of time in to giving back to the community, I cant' count the hours that Zag has spent looking at peoples logs or trying to think outside the box or doing math to try and find new ways of bettering other people that had little or no effect on his own play. 

 

Personally I've spent at least a few hundred hours going over peoples logs, answering questions, trying to get people unstuck, or guiding people to the right information to help.  So you can understand how when someone indiscriminately dismisses us and our advice, it can be a bit offensive. 

Edited by Lockybalboa
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I did not mean to step on any toes or give advice that was counterintuitive, but I believed the OP wanted advice specific to his level of raid, that he could implement immediately without difficulty.  I also don't think anyone intended to suggest anyone else isn't incredibly helpful or that guides written on IV are not appreciated.  

 

That being said, in the context of this thread:

To a single person - pragmatic advice is often more valuable than theoretical advice, especially when player comfort or skill level is unknown.  Tailoring your advice to a specific person based on their place in raid progression is a valuable and personable skill to foster.

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Aequireg, you're new here. That's a fine opinion to have, but that's not the way we roll. If I gave someone flex-level advice, it would basically be "don't stand in fire," "stick 'em with the pointy end," or "it's flex; just hit it."  That's tailoring to the level of what you're going for.

 

We give the best advice we can give at all times, because we want the community to get better. We want all of our warlock brothers and sisters to go on and become fantastic raiders. Thus, we give the optimal advice possible.

 

That doesn't mean we expect everyone to go suddenly become amazing heroic raiders, but there's no reason to not approach your raids with the same level of dedication.

 

Our issue isn't with your opinion, or that you said something. Our issue isn't even with anything related to you. You presented yourself in a respectful manner. We just happen to disagree with your philosophy.

Edited by Kazistrasz
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If I gave someone flex-level advice, it would basically be "don't stand in fire," "stick 'em with the pointy end," or "it's flex; just hit it."  That's tailoring to the level of what you're going for.

 

Well that's a bit of a stretch. I mean, I get that compared to heroic raiding, lfr/flex is the easiest thing to ever easy, but most of the people playing flex are not as skilled/experienced as y'all rockstar raiders, and learning mechanics will help us help our groups. I have seen such folks get good advice on these forums. Sure you COULD just stand around and blast stuff and get by at those levels, but that's not what people who read this board want (I don't think). Which is not to slam you or the other heroic raiders in any way, but just to make the point that even LFR/Flex raiders get something from learning the mechanics, if only the personal pride in not being yet another derper standing in the fire.

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There is literally NOTHING different between Flex and normal mode in regards to fight mechanics.  NONE AT ALL.  Why should we give tailored advice to a Flex-specific instance when we expect that player to return and say something like "that didn't kill me in Flex, how do I deal with it in normal?" 

 

Advice is never given as a means to an end.  It's meant to foster thought, create intuition, and develop awareness.  I'm not going to tell someone to take a talent to absorb the death beams of fire in Flex so that they can come back and say "damn, that sucks, now I have to learn to avoid them."  While, yes, it is understandable that someone MIGHT want some tailored advice for their SPECIFIC question, but that defeats the purpose of us Heroic raiders offering advice to the Flex raiders. 

 

Myself and some other raiders here have given countless hours in responses, log analysis, and repetitive questions.  Most of the questions asked are answered here, but most would rather create a post and ask than do the research that's laid out.   That's fine, but please remember that sometimes we just look at the most recent post and give instant advice because we're checking 5-10 threads, dealing with some troll somewhere else on the website, or, in my case, writing another guide. 

 

TL;DR: We're not going to give tailored advice to Flex when the better means to the end is to give advice inclusive of all modes.  There is an assumption that we are grooming all those asking advice to eventually become Heroic raiders.  If this insults you, please put a disclaimer in your post and let us know you never plan on going past a particular difficulty whether it's LFR, Flex, or normal.

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The alternative would've been to teach someone else how to do the job and maybe have them not show up the next week (whereas I cannot remember ever missing a raid). I was reliable, competent, and I got the job done. Would the boss have died faster if I would've been on the platform full time? Yup! Did the boss still die every time? Yup!

 

TL;DR: Your response is perfectly fine for a group working on heroic Siegecrafter, but completely irrelevant for every other group out there (which makes up the vast majority of groups).

 

P.S. This is one of my biggest complaints with heroic raiders. The OP is asking for help regarding the belt on Flex difficulty, not normal or heroic. But heroic raiders will come in and say "warlocks should never be on the belt!" Bullshit. Whoever the raid leader wants on the belt should be on the belt. Heroic raiders have some excellent advice to give, but it's always skewed and biased based on their personal experience. That kind of advice is helpful to no one, least of all the OP. He wants help with the belt so give him help with the belt. Let his raid leader figure out everything else, because it's not your place.

That's nice that you helped your group take care of the belt.  Our argument isn't that you're not suited for it.  We give optimal advice regardless of the situation.  The REAL problem with your ten man group is that the other DPS aren't reliable.  You said it yourself.  I remember saying in many threads that while Warlocks are best suited for the main platform, most of the time, your best player gets stuck with it because others can't be trusted.  This doesn't bode well for anyone in your group.  First, you stunt your raid's strategy by using a sub-optimal comp.  Is it possible?  Sure.  We don't care about "possible" here.  We care about "optimal."  This isn't a "Heroic" only point of view.  Everyone in the world would rather work smarter instead of harder.  Secondly, you harbor the mindframe in the other raiders that if they just suck at mechanics, their Warlock teammate will take care of it.  This makes them crappier players.  Instead of forcing them to learn a mechanic and become a better player, you're actually responsible for continuing to let them be bad players.  We, again, don't agree with that stance here.

 

Your list of "complaints" about Heroic raiders isn't well received here.  No one here has ever given bad advice or put someone down for their lack of progress or achievements.  We've poured HOURS and HOURS into guides, responses, and a healthy forum atmosphere so that players of all calibur can come and get advice.  Generalizing us at Icy-Veins as snotty Heroic raiders who look down upon all others won't be tolerated here, either.   When you say something like 'whatever the Raid leader says is what should happen,' it shows that you might not be comfortable with a strategy other than the one you've already employed.  Also, not all raid leaders are knowledgeable about all things.  Input from his or her raid members and community sources can help him or her develop strategies that will minimize the amount of time spent during the fight as well as optimizing each player's role.  It IS our place to help him with strategies.  We don't wait for players to come in with sub-optimal strategies and then give a varied response than that to our other forum readers.  This creates conflicting ideas and views that pushes people to ask which is better.  We have a responsibility to our readers to give them the best advice which creates the easiest and most optimal strategy for them.  That's what we do.

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