CptDan

Preparing for 20 man mythic (resto)

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I am curious to see what other healers are doing to prepare for 20 man raiding. For us it won't be a drastic change due to us being 25 man already. Will the 10 man healers stay 10 man and forgo the 20 man difficulty or if they merge two teams how are they planning to adjust?

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I think it's going to be interesting how they balance our talents, esp since healing is supposed to see a major 'playstyle change' in raids. (Source)  With that, I think we'll all need a little relearning, notwithstanding the swap from 10 to 25.

 

Are offspec heals going to be nerfed in favor of main spec snap healing?

Is something like AG going to lose it's value because of these 'interesting mechanics'?  (Range, 'realms', etc. can affect it's potency.)

Is Rushing Streams going to be seen as the 'almost never' talent, as it is in 25m now?

Will our 'smart heal champion' niche stay put, or will Healing Rain get nerfed due to it's relative power in larger groups?

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I am curious to see what other healers are doing to prepare for 20 man raiding. For us it won't be a drastic change due to us being 25 man already. Will the 10 man healers stay 10 man and forgo the 20 man difficulty or if they merge two teams how are they planning to adjust?

 

We're a "casualcore" 10man guild at the moment, we've been on a bit of a recruit drive to get enough for a good Mythic team. You can bet we're not giving up on having full progress goals! :D

 

The main difference for us is doubling the n.o. healers. We'll have a healing co-ordinator (which I've volunteered for), which looks like it will work out well :D

 

I think it's going to be interesting how they balance our talents, esp since healing is supposed to see a major 'playstyle change' in raids. (Source)  With that, I think we'll all need a little relearning, notwithstanding the swap from 10 to 25.

 

I really hope they bring back a potent form of triage, which we saw in Cataclysm.

 

Are offspec heals going to be nerfed in favor of main spec snap healing?

Is something like AG going to lose it's value because of these 'interesting mechanics'?  (Range, 'realms', etc. can affect it's potency.)

Is Rushing Streams going to be seen as the 'almost never' talent, as it is in 25m now?

Will our 'smart heal champion' niche stay put, or will Healing Rain get nerfed due to it's relative power in larger groups?

 

1) nerfing offspec burst would mitigate the amount of burst damage they have to apply in Mythic, so I hope the burst goes down and the emphasis is more on triage again.

 

2) AG will probably be more situational than it is in 25s now, but less so than it is in 10s now. Should make it more interesting all round!

 

3) Hopefully it'll be more attractive, especially if we do move to a triage system again. Remember that early expac it will be extra free healing, so very powerful indeed.

 

4) I hope we don't stay as smarheal champions. I dislike it. Also HR is good in large groups, but since the nerf to Ascendance it's not so OP. Remember it only heals 6 people at once now, hardcapped :)

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I think the biggest issues will be those in guilds like stoove's. Essentially doubling the number of healers in a team.

In response to some of the above points:

1) I personally hope and feel that blizz will bring triage healing back to the front. This usually is how the expansion starts but lets hope they keep it through patches.

2) most likely the pattern of damage in mythic will change but I do not think that the amounts will change much. If damage is reduced too much and healers are able to heal through too easily then the # of healers will drop which will not be fun.

3) I believe that a lot of our healing is going to become "situationally applicable." With the plans to simplify stats and the number of spells we have it is a safe bet that we will be using them all in the situations that will undoubtedly require them.

4) I know I am dreaming again but I miss the uniqueness of the different classes and roles. I miss needing a shaman because of bloodlust/heroism I miss the uniqueness of the different classes and specs. I see the logic behind the homogenization but I still miss being able to be different.

Changing to 20 man teams will be a larger adjustment for ten man teams. For us it will be a trimming the fat concept and we will be forming new teams so no one is left out. I am sure some guilds will fold and others rise up better than ever.

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I think the biggest issues will be those in guilds like stoove's. Essentially doubling the number of healers in a team.

In response to some of the above points:

1) I personally hope and feel that blizz will bring triage healing back to the front. This usually is how the expansion starts but lets hope they keep it through patches.

 

I noticed the Blue tweet earlier saying that the WoD Healing blog will be the second one released w/ the first coming today or tomorrow.  Looking forward to it and maybe we'll have some early answers to the changes coming our healers way.

Edited by Gwenymph
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im also in a casual ten man (2 days a week) that is working its way through heroics in SoO currently. a lot of people in the guild have spent time trying to plan things for WoD. at this point I don't really think it's going to be a drastic change because there's no way we're going from fresh 90s to mythic raiding in week one. it took us at least 9 weeks to kill garrosh on reg and even after that we couldnt get immersius for a few weeks.

 

with heroic raiding in WoD we will no longer have to turn people away because we are full. you can slowly and constantly build up to mythic. arent mythic and all other difficulties going to be seperate ids? if that's the case i bet most casual tens will have at least 15 consistant people by week 3. throughout tot and early SoO i was turning away at least one decent raider a month and our server only had 800 ally on it before our recent merge.

 

i still try to get a group every week to finish our SoO id after our regular raid days, and in WoD full clearing heroic will be even more chances at filling in the gaps that would otherwise haunt a player until the end of the expansion (amp trinks anyone?)

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with heroic raiding in WoD we will no longer have to turn people away because we are full. you can slowly and constantly build up to mythic. arent mythic and all other difficulties going to be seperate ids? if that's the case i bet most casual tens will have at least 15 consistant people by week 3. throughout tot and early SoO i was turning away at least one decent raider a month and our server only had 800 ally on it before our recent merge.

 

 

 

I cannot express how much I appreciate that they applied that scaling feature to "normal."  You hit it on the head for casual 10's heading into WoD.  Give people a few weeks to be raid ready and each week after that you'll be adding one or two more to your run.

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from what i understand about the personal loot system the following situation could also happen:

 

i do heroic with my guild group of 10 with any loot system and do a full clear.

 

i join a 25 man pug and am the only person there who has cleared it that week, but they set the loot to the old fashioned boss drop system. i can still get loot passed to me, but there is a slight chance that one less piece of loot will drop.

 

in summary, if i ever want to raid for fun or profit in any mode but mythic, the world is mine.

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Lots of information is coming out on the new talents, and I'm kind of excited about much of it. I haven't read over all of it myself but I will this weekend. 

 

I think the changes should benefit the players for the most part. I am amped to see how the guilds adjust to the changes and most of all I hope that the encounters are "hard" with a steady progression. I understand that most of the fights will be non-linear but I would still like to see how they progress.

 

I will study up on the information and return with a more informed opinion.

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My guild is a casualcore 10m.  We run 2 teams to meet different time and day needs, so unfortunately cannot simply combine raids.  We are also recruiting for WoD with the focus on Mythic raiding so we are shooting to have possibly two 20m to go in with so when we hit the 20m hardcap, it is not a huge adjustment. 

 

One thing I have to agree with CptDan on, and I made mention of last night to my raid team when the WoD chat came up (shortly after the blog post went up), is while we hope to keep the current core members we have now, 9 months (anticipated) is a long ways away in game terms.  It is hard to say who will come and go, and who won't like the changes to WoD.  I know people who take patches and expacs off becuase of mechanics changes.  So planning around the folks we have now is wishful thinking.

 

Something I am afraid people will get used to is the flex mechanic and how it is "ok" if all your people are not around each raid night.  Because once you hit mythic, it is not ok.  As a RL, it is still going to be important to stress the importance of dependiblity. 

 

On a side note, we got our second H Malk kill last night and I rolled my smiling red shield *super big happy dance*!

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One thing I have to agree with CptDan on, and I made mention of last night to my raid team when the WoD chat came up (shortly after the blog post went up), is while we hope to keep the current core members we have now, 9 months (anticipated) is a long ways away in game terms.  It is hard to say who will come and go, and who won't like the changes to WoD.  I know people who take patches and expacs off becuase of mechanics changes.  So planning around the folks we have now is wishful thinking.

 

Something I am afraid people will get used to is the flex mechanic and how it is "ok" if all your people are not around each raid night.  Because once you hit mythic, it is not ok.  As a RL, it is still going to be important to stress the importance of dependiblity. 

 

On a side note, we got our second H Malk kill last night and I rolled my smiling red shield *super big happy dance*!

 

Grats on the kill and completely agree with the layover before the xpac drops.  Real life happens even w/o the anticipation of a new xpac or patch coming.  The time between now and when guilds have enough players to raid 20m Mythic will undoubtedly see a turnover of players.  Some burnt out and some returning(for who knows how long).

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I think the hardest thing to deal with is merging or rampant recruiting. When you add just one or two players it totally changes the dynamic and personalities could clash etc.

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from what i understand about the personal loot system the following situation could also happen:

 

i do heroic with my guild group of 10 with any loot system and do a full clear.

 

i join a 25 man pug and am the only person there who has cleared it that week, but they set the loot to the old fashioned boss drop system. i can still get loot passed to me, but there is a slight chance that one less piece of loot will drop.

 

in summary, if i ever want to raid for fun or profit in any mode but mythic, the world is mine.

If you remember Dragon Soul LFR (can't blame you if you repressed it), even if you could still be present for the bosses where loot dropped, you could not have it traded to you if you already killed that boss.  I would be very, very surprised if this was any different.

 

My raid group just got an 11th (since almost literally every day someone is missing), and we have a few people who often pug with us that we might acquire   There's a decent pool of guilds on our server with ~6 or 7 people in their core that fill the rest of their ranks with rotating pugs, so I imagine it won't be too hard for us to acquire people on the way to Mythic.  I mean, it took us until the beginning of January to kill Garrosh, we're hardly week-3-mythic people :P

 

Not to mention that SoO will adopt the new system before WoD actually launches, sort of like how D3 just got Loot 2.0 but RoS hasn't launched yet.  That gives us about a month to get some new people before we even start leveling, although it might mean we have a month where we can't do current-heroics.

 

Man, I can't wait for WoD.

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I think the hardest thing to deal with is merging or rampant recruiting. When you add just one or two players it totally changes the dynamic and personalities could clash etc.

 

This is definitely something we're legit worried about. Our raid team is well known on the realm for being really fun to play with, but serious raiders looking for progress. We have our own kind of ethos which I don't think other guilds on the server have, and we're proud of that.

 

Recruiting too fast would break it. =\

 

Our solution is recruiting people who want to raid with us early, and gradually integrating them into our team :)

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This is definitely something we're legit worried about. Our raid team is well known on the realm for being really fun to play with, but serious raiders looking for progress. We have our own kind of ethos which I don't think other guilds on the server have, and we're proud of that.

 

Recruiting too fast would break it. =\

 

Our solution is recruiting people who want to raid with us early, and gradually integrating them into our team smile.png

Yes, this is more true for most guilds than you would know. I've mentioned a few times in other posts that we're having trouble with people joining and leaving the guild and thus the raid teams. When you recruit you need to ensure that you are bringing them in because you have a strong reason to bring them in, and not because you don't have a reason to not bring them in. Matching play style and mindset will be the definitive measure of a successful recruiting strategy.

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The healing watercooler just came up, and it's a very interesting read!

 

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/298309-dev-watercooler-building-healthy-gameplay/

 

Some real highlights:

 

"To that end, we’re buffing heals less than we’re increasing creature damage. Heals will be deliberately less potent compared to health pools than before the item squish. Additionally, as gear improves, the scaling rates of health and healing will now be very similar, so the relative power of any given healing spell shouldn’t climb so much over the course of this expansion."

 

Looks like we will see triage-style healing make a return, with larger health pools, and heals returning a smaller portion of health.

 

"All of these changes apply to damage-absorption shields as well. Additionally, we're toning down the power of absorbs in general. When they get too strong, absorption effects are often used in place of direct healing instead of as a way to supplement it"

 

A good change.  As I've been saying, in the late game absorbs are way too valuable, allowing you to skip entire mechanics on certain fights.

 

"We also took a look at healing spells that were passive or auto-targeted (so-called "smart" heals).

We want healers to care about who they're targeting and which heals they're using, because that makes healer gameplay more interactive and fun. To that end, we're reducing the healing of many passive and auto-targeted heals, and making smart heals a little less smart. Smart heals will now randomly pick any injured target within range instead of always picking the most injured target."

 

This will make our class specifically a little more annoying, and severely tweak our effective output from HST, HR, and HTT.  I'm not as impressed with this change, but it does effectively reduce the amount of blanket healing a single Atonement Disc, Fistweaver, or Shaman does.

 

"Finally, we're removing the low-throughput, low-mana-cost heals like Nourish, Holy Light, Heal, and Healing Wave, because we think that while they do add complexity, they don’t truly add depth to healing gameplay. (We’re also renaming some spells to re-use those names. For example, Greater Healing Wave is being redubbed Healing Wave.)

 

Shaman Higher Efficiency: (Greater) Healing Wave, Riptide, Healing Rain
Shaman Higher Throughput: Healing Surge, Chain Heal"

 

Fantastic.  I mentioned about a month ago that HW wasn't even worth casting, and this removes that issue.

Edited by Hybrys
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I'm so glad that the smartheals are becoming dumb again.

 

The only thing that I think it will be a problem with would be Chain Heal, where the skill was always picking the right player to cast it on. Now, I think that even casting it skillfully will be pretty pointless. Disappointing, but I welcome the rest of the changes.

 

Bring on the triage! ^__^

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did any other shaman healers have trouble putting numbers up at the beginning of cata? that expansion in general was not fun for me, and is probably why i quit until mop. no one was powerful, everything was focused on not making mistakes rather than seizing opportunities. 

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I'm so glad that the smartheals are becoming dumb again.

 

The only thing that I think it will be a problem with would be Chain Heal, where the skill was always picking the right player to cast it on. Now, I think that even casting it skillfully will be pretty pointless. Disappointing, but I welcome the rest of the changes.

 

Bring on the triage! ^__^

 

I think I've read a " I <3 Triage" post from you at least 3x!  You were actually the person I thought of when I finished this. lol

 

Grats

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did any other shaman healers have trouble putting numbers up at the beginning of cata? that expansion in general was not fun for me, and is probably why i quit until mop. no one was powerful, everything was focused on not making mistakes rather than seizing opportunities. 

 

Cata is what made me stop healing until MoP also.  I rolled a pally and tanked in Cata until my guild blew up.  I hated trying to heal instances and it seemed I was always deficit healing, coupled with bursts of damage killing folks and kicked from group.  To be fair, coming from Wotlk healing it was a huge slap in the face.  I decided if that is what healing was about, I was done with it.  It is a concern for me again after having read the water cooler.  If we have learned anything from the past, it is the Dev's do not seem to learn much from the past.  They resurrect old models and try to tweak them for a new xpac.  

 

I guess something else I don't understand is the double whammy.  They are going to nerf the effectiveness of our heals, and make our smart heals dumber essentially making the weaker heals hit people you do not necessarily want it to.  I am mostly looking at HR, with a nod to the CH jumps. 

 

I do not have much to say about them adding cast timers to a lot of the instant heals.  I kind of like it because I think it makes us more competitive with other heals since they get the same issues we have had to deal with.  Do y'all think it will make glyphing riptide more valuable in WoD?

 

Also interested to see how mana regen turns out.  Particularly for us and our mana return mechanics.

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Ah you guys don't let anything slip do you?

 

Yeah, I totally love Triage. I cut my teeth in Cataclysm, so the healing style is ingrained in my psyche. :)

 

I have a lot of opinions and thoughts about the changes, though too much to opine on here. I'll probably write a blog about it soon ™. In the mean time;

 

header4.jpg

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As much fun as it was to heal in wrath when we were amazing, I welcome the changes. I don't ever really consider it a nerf when an expansion launches with the changes. I loved the changes to mana totals and learning to balance resources.

I believe that in essence the changes will be just that, changes. Nerf or buff is yet to be decided.

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So I took a while to write down my thoughts, it's a bit too much for a forum post (as expected). Find it on my blog.

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Excellent read Stoove! But where you talk about:

 

"So the baseline regen for every healer is increasing, and at the same time the scaling is going down. What this means is that the healing game is going to evolve comparatively little over the course of the expansion. This is exciting, because it vividly opposes what happened both in Cataclysm and Mists of Pandaria. In both of the most recent expansions, the healing and regen has scaled so fast that outside the first tier of raiding, Triage was all but dead."

 

I have to reply with something I read, and initially thought myself.  How do gear upgrades make me feel like I am actually getting upgraded?  

 

Blizz's response to the question was:

 

Nethaera
 You should overall feel like you're still gaining some power, but mostly you'll feel like you have some control over how you heal and who you heal.

 

Which to me is no answer at all.  So why bother gearing at all?

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