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Grahmrook

Right gear for the right job

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So after reading CptDans comment about using the Elemental chest vs the Resto one for healing, it made me curious.  What is the more effective and efficient way to gear?  Since we are running leaner on Spirit then the gear comes with, is it better to shoot for as much gear without spirit as possible and gem into the spirit, or go with spirit gear and gem/reforge out of it. 

 

On a different line of questioning, since I am using what I can of my resto gear for ele, is there a way to get AMR to ignore the Ele set bonus's?  I understand we do not want all the crit/spirit gear desired by resto, but it is still wanting me to use 553 tier instead of 574 non tier seemingly for the sole purpose of keeping the 4pc. 

 

Thanks in advance on both.  I feel truly blessed to be part of such a supportive and informative community.  Both here and the WoW forums, most shaman players seem to be a cut above the rest and go out of their way to help others of our class improve and excel. 

 

Thank you again!

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My advice is to form goals on stats etc. then gear around those. I think in late game gear (560+) resto can get by with a lot less spirit. As far as set bonuses go, I use the ones that fit my play style and ignore the rest. I personally don't use the resto 4p but others do to great success.

This all said I don't feel that sharing a gear set for both is all that practical in high end content. An ele set could probably get by in some normals or as an off healer in some heroics even but to perform the role efficiently I don't see the stats being analogous.

Focus on the stats and getting the right trinkets and you should do fine.

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I get what your saying about goals, and I also do not use the resto 4pc.  My resto set is ~571 but using BiB on AMR puts me about 562-4 depending on minor tweaks.  I do not know a ton about elemental, but I know they are beneficial on some fights more then other dps.  We are working on H Spoils right now, and I think ele would be better for the fight then the Ret pally we have doing it now(also 560ish ilvl dps).  That said, as heals I have been very strong on that fight too so it is kind of a toss up on what is better.  I have duplicate heroic pieces that are not upgraded which I took with the intent of using them as elemental filler since I could reforge those to haste or mastery vs crit.  I was reading the thread healing with haste vs mast for ele and I have no ideal how to sim dps etc.  So for purposes of AMR, am I good using the default weights of:

 

Spell Hit(to 15%)       6.5

Intellect                     5.2

Spell Power              4.2

Haste                        2.9

Mastery                    2.9

Crit                           2.35

 

And just plug in gear I think is better to use?  Are there better weights for a closer balance?  I am just trying to optimize a bit more so I am not sitting at 30% hit because of all the spirit gear but still be an effective dps in heroic progression content.  I suffer a bit because I have horrid dps trinkets, but I think I can still put out decent numbers if I get the rest right.

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I hope we get more of the ele shaman weighing in on this. I never go off spec on a serious fight so my dps is all but good.

I think you're struggle is going to be building a set that with a few changes will work for both. My understanding for ele is that mastery and haste are the best. Since you are using some spirit gear from your resto set see if devaluing hit will help. I'm sure it's not hard to hit cap with just a couple of spirit pieces.

Your dps should be fine for the fights though. With no reforged stats to ele I can pull almost 200k on a normal fight. With the cape and dps trinkets I bet I could really Do a lot more.

Our ret pally does really well on spoils but maybe he is special I dunno. I say go heals and help with dps and control if that is your best set unless the pally just can't pull numbers

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I hope we get more of the ele shaman weighing in on this. I never go off spec on a serious fight so my dps is all but good.

 

Ask and ye shall receive!

 

On a different line of questioning, since I am using what I can of my resto gear for ele, is there a way to get AMR to ignore the Ele set bonus's?  I understand we do not want all the crit/spirit gear desired by resto, but it is still wanting me to use 553 tier instead of 574 non tier seemingly for the sole purpose of keeping the 4pc.

To my knowledge, AMR actually does ignore that (but simcraft doesn't).  It just takes the stat weights you give it and works with them; which includes "hit past cap is 0"; no need to devalue hit manually.  I'm willing to bet 5k that you're past hit cap by a sizable margin, at least by as much spirit as is on that 574 non-tier.  How do I know the non-tier has spirit on it?  Because there's only 2 that don't, and only one of them competes with tier.  In fact, it's probably spirit crit, because there's a lot of those, and resto loves those.

 

Spirit past cap is worth literally nothing.  It is as useful for us as Strength or PvP power in PvE; nada.  Nothing.  Zilch.  If you are past hit cap and deciding between two pieces, spirit is a zero stat and you should pretend it does not exist.  Further, crit lags well behind haste and mastery (which are getting discussed in another thread right now).

 

What this all means is that AMR isn't telling you to keep the 4pc bonus; it's a handful of percents of your DPS (particularly low on multiple target or if you move a lot), hardly worth gearing around.  It's telling you the tier 553 is actually better than the non-tier 574, and it is correct.  Our stats are actually just that messed up.

 

However, the AMR default stat weights are based on single target exclusively.  I haven't done it on heroic, but Spoils does feature a lot of AoE; since the primary detractor from crit is that Lava Burst doesn't benefit from it, it's actually not so bad when you're spending a lot of time casting Chain Lightning.  (The hotfixed buff to Clearcasting didn't affect this, since while casting Chain Lightning, either you have 100% uptime or really awful luck.)  We're seriously ridiculous on that fight, and you can even help heal because chain lightning gives you infinite mana (in addition to the usual Ancestral Guidance/totems - note that AG is particularly strong when you can AoE, and if paired with Ascendance outpaces real healer CDs by a ludicrous margin).  Basically, your inevitable overabundance of crit won't hurt you here as much as it would for a single target fight, but you still want to try and replace as much of it as possible.

 

If you can pick up some elemental tier gear (normal is fine, the itemization is that much superior), especially a helm (in which to put the DPS Legendary Meta Gem which is huge for elemental), you can probably do extremely well on Spoils.  Sidegrading my helm from the Nazgrim one shot me up 20k dps, you'll go up less if moving from a heroic one but it's still huge.

 

Best of luck, and keep us informed!

 

EDIT: Oh jesus I just read "30% hit".  Yeah.  Wow.  At that level of spirit, even flex tier might compete with heroic non-tier.

 

Another edit: Your top gearing priority is to ensure you have a helm with the DPS Legendary Meta Gem in it; in a pinch, a spare normal non-tier will suffice, but hopefully you have at least an Ordos one lying around or a spare heroic one.  The tier helm is best in slot by some insane margin, so if at all possible get it.  Second (and much easier), if you're doing Spoils with all that AoE, the dps cloak is very nice for that, and has the added benefit of not having spirit on it.  From there, go for trinkets and tier pieces; if you have to pick one, a dps trinket enough better than a healing trinket to prioritize.  No one will stop you if you ask for a Frenzied Crystal of Rage off Malkorok, it's pretty terrible for single-target and basically only good for Spoils.  If you have to keep a healing trinket, keep the one that amplifies your secondary stats.  (Prismatic Prison of Pride, if memory serves.  The one that's like Purified Bindings of Immerseus, but for healers.)

Edited by SparkSovereign
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Fantastic response from Spark there, I just wanted to talk about the Resto side of it.

 

For Resto, my strategy is always to set what my stat priorities are and find out what's BiS via AMR. Once I've done that, I coin the right fights for the BiS and otherwise take what gear I can get until the BiS comes along. Sometimes you have to choose between two pieces which give different stats, at which point I choose whatever gives me the one I'm most excited about. If it comes to it, you can reforge out of a lot of Spirit, so that is probably the way to go if you're pure Resto.

 

On the flipside, I'd say that if you want it to be Ele viable then take as few Spirit pieces as possible and gem/reforge up to the cap you want.

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note that AG is particularly strong when you can AoE, and if paired with Ascendance outpaces real healer CDs by a ludicrous margin). 

 

Interested to know what you peak at HPS-wise. I measured myself with (Resto) Ascendance and Heroism doing over 1M HPS at the start of HC Malkorok the other night! :O

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mine usually does 300k or so. after looking at a few logs, it's strikingly similar to the output of resto AG.

 

it would be interesting to see the million heal log. the heals in my group rarely go over 300k on that fight.

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mine usually does 300k or so. after looking at a few logs, it's strikingly similar to the output of resto AG.

 

it would be interesting to see the million heal log. the heals in my group rarely go over 300k on that fight.

 

Only very briefly, with everyone stacked and Heroism applied and 10 riptides running simultaneously. :)

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ah gotcha i was curious what spells did that.

 

it might be worth noting that while AG's total output isnt huge, it is excessively "smart" and the heals come in an extremely rapid succession. because the healing hits so fast it can heal up to 3 people through anything that doesnt include a one shot.

 

to be at full power, it does need either CL going to 4+ targets or Ascendance. there are a couple pulls in Challenge Mode dungeons where the opportunity comes up to Hero, Ascend, and Lava Beam 5+ targets. for 12 seconds it looks like everyone is just sitting at full health even though the total healing done can reach over 6 mil.

 

the pull that comes to mind is the final room of scarlet monastery. when you use the strat taht involves using drums of speed to get to the small room on the left and pulling the boss, aggroing the entire monastary to you at once.

 

the only other pull you can do to max ele AG is to do the last half of the Galakras trash all at once. banners with their aoe can get pretty heavy.

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Here's one of those massive HPS spike logs.

Stoove is OP. I want to solo heal that fight sometime just to see how much I can sustain. I bet with a good group, it could be done.

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I don't think I'd do it on Heroic, simply because of the sheer spread of people on that fight. Typically, about 30% of the raid is out of range at any time.

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mw monks dont get targeted by the knockup, so theyd be able to stand in the middle to at least try it.

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Ask and ye shall receive!

 

To my knowledge, AMR actually does ignore that (but simcraft doesn't).  It just takes the stat weights you give it and works with them; which includes "hit past cap is 0"; no need to devalue hit manually.  I'm willing to bet 5k that you're past hit cap by a sizable margin, at least by as much spirit as is on that 574 non-tier.  How do I know the non-tier has spirit on it?  Because there's only 2 that don't, and only one of them competes with tier.  In fact, it's probably spirit crit, because there's a lot of those, and resto loves those.

 

Spirit past cap is worth literally nothing.  It is as useful for us as Strength or PvP power in PvE; nada.  Nothing.  Zilch.  If you are past hit cap and deciding between two pieces, spirit is a zero stat and you should pretend it does not exist.  Further, crit lags well behind haste and mastery (which are getting discussed in another thread right now).

 

What this all means is that AMR isn't telling you to keep the 4pc bonus; it's a handful of percents of your DPS (particularly low on multiple target or if you move a lot), hardly worth gearing around.  It's telling you the tier 553 is actually better than the non-tier 574, and it is correct.  Our stats are actually just that messed up.

 

However, the AMR default stat weights are based on single target exclusively.  I haven't done it on heroic, but Spoils does feature a lot of AoE; since the primary detractor from crit is that Lava Burst doesn't benefit from it, it's actually not so bad when you're spending a lot of time casting Chain Lightning.  (The hotfixed buff to Clearcasting didn't affect this, since while casting Chain Lightning, either you have 100% uptime or really awful luck.)  We're seriously ridiculous on that fight, and you can even help heal because chain lightning gives you infinite mana (in addition to the usual Ancestral Guidance/totems - note that AG is particularly strong when you can AoE, and if paired with Ascendance outpaces real healer CDs by a ludicrous margin).  Basically, your inevitable overabundance of crit won't hurt you here as much as it would for a single target fight, but you still want to try and replace as much of it as possible.

 

If you can pick up some elemental tier gear (normal is fine, the itemization is that much superior), especially a helm (in which to put the DPS Legendary Meta Gem which is huge for elemental), you can probably do extremely well on Spoils.  Sidegrading my helm from the Nazgrim one shot me up 20k dps, you'll go up less if moving from a heroic one but it's still huge.

 

Best of luck, and keep us informed!

 

EDIT: Oh jesus I just read "30% hit".  Yeah.  Wow.  At that level of spirit, even flex tier might compete with heroic non-tier.

 

Another edit: Your top gearing priority is to ensure you have a helm with the DPS Legendary Meta Gem in it; in a pinch, a spare normal non-tier will suffice, but hopefully you have at least an Ordos one lying around or a spare heroic one.  The tier helm is best in slot by some insane margin, so if at all possible get it.  Second (and much easier), if you're doing Spoils with all that AoE, the dps cloak is very nice for that, and has the added benefit of not having spirit on it.  From there, go for trinkets and tier pieces; if you have to pick one, a dps trinket enough better than a healing trinket to prioritize.  No one will stop you if you ask for a Frenzied Crystal of Rage off Malkorok, it's pretty terrible for single-target and basically only good for Spoils.  If you have to keep a healing trinket, keep the one that amplifies your secondary stats.  (Prismatic Prison of Pride, if memory serves.  The one that's like Purified Bindings of Immerseus, but for healers.)

 

I managed to pick up the LFR PBI this past week and have heroic PPoP so that is what I am using as DPS trinks (I literally have nothing else to chose from).  I have 4pc using 553 legs, head, and shoulders, and 566 chest.  Gloves are not very forthcoming from Nazgrim, so I am using 574 Marco's.  Now what I kind of do not understand is why AMR values Marcos over Grips of Tidal Force.  Is it because of the Crit and I am already crit heavy?  I am using DPS Leg cloak and meta so good there.  With what I have elemental now and gems/reforges, I am at 18% Hit and I can live with that.  I did not get the opportunity this week to dps on spoils, so nothing to report there, but as a limited time dps, for spoils in particular, would I on the smalls/meds just spam CL and ES on proc?  Would I want to pop AG + Ascend together for the larges? 

 

Side train of questioning:  we are still struggling with H Spoils, to the extent we have not yet made it past first rooms.  We can get close on one side or the other, but have not managed to get both together.  It seems to me a bit of crappy rng on which panda boxes you get, as they make a huge difference on the fight.  Do people have different strats they use depending on the pandas they get?

 

Thanks for all the awesome feed back, look forward to hearing from everyone.

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AMR is tuned for people who are on the right track, the choice between marco's and the mastery crit gloves is less than ideal. if they are equal ilvl go with the mastery crit gloves if you are over hit. crit isnt worthless, its just that everything else is better. but being over hit cap is really worth zero, even though most ele do often make crit seem like it is of no value at all. if you have a choice between being over hit or getting some crit, pickup the crit piece and reforge it away. this scenario may only happen with those gloves, since almost everything else in SoO is spirit crit, and really is worthless to ele.

 

AMR on a piece by piece comparison with the default settings will always see stuff with hit/spirit as the best choice, but if you are over hit, get stuff without it.

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