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Zagam

Demonology Opener

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Hey, since I'm pulling Heroic Garrosh this week, I'm hoping you guys getting ready for another raid lockout can test something for me - the Demonology opener.  I've been pulling logs of top parsing Demos and have a few things to look at but can't really push it hard in my raid or Flex. 

 

Also, 10 mans will have a different flow than 25 mans.  If you don't believe me, go look at the DPS variance in 10 vs 25 - it's pretty massive. 

 

For either mode, I'm looking for testers to record logs and link here with the following opener...

 

Soul Fire (pre-cast)

Summon Doomguard

Hand of Gul'dan

Corruption

Grimoire:Felguard

Berserking + Imp Swarm (if Troll)

Hand of Guldan

Dark Soul + Metamorphosis

Doom

Touch of Chaos

Soul Fire

Soul Fire

Doom

Soul Fire

Touch of Chaos

Shadowbolt

Shadowbolt

Shadowbolt

Metamorphosis

Soul Fire

Soul Fire

Soul Fire

Soul Fire

 

You should be able to do all of that in 20 seconds.  I don't think you can generate enough Demonic Fury without Imp Swarm.  Also, don't use Imp Swarm on CD - only use it after your opener if Tempus Repit is up.  Do NOT line it up with Dark Soul as the damage increase isn't worth it anymore. 

 

Should be using a Mastery = Haste >> Crit setup.  It looks like if you get Doom rolling with big trinket procs and TR + BL, you can have it's DoT interval be around 5 seconds which is insanely awesome.  I'm starting to see Demo catch up to the other specs, but still perform under, but I'm curious to capture high end parses and what they do later on. 

 

THIS IS NOT A THREAD TO LEARN DEMONOLOGY - THIS IS FOR THE PROS AND SOME RESEARCH.

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I'll throw in a parse from Heroic IJ this week. 

 

578 ilvl 14k haste BP 

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K - yeah the opener I listed is the exact casting order of 3 particular Warlocks who performed above 460k on IJ.  That's really the only fight to test single target shit on. 

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I've been using GoServ Felguard at the start (along with Doomguard) before HoG to get out an extra spell before I proc BBoY. Not sure if it's necessary, or even if this means less damage as it's out before PBI has procced (usually) and doesn't get the full duration.

 

Thoughts?

 

I'll try to modify my opener a bit like the one you posted. 

 

Another thing I was doing was dropping 1 extra HoG towards the end before jumping back in for some soul fires. Any input on this?

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I've been using GoServ Felguard at the start (along with Doomguard) before HoG to get out an extra spell before I proc BBoY. Not sure if it's necessary, or even if this means less damage as it's out before PBI has procced (usually) and doesn't get the full duration.

This is what I do when I play demo. The extra demonic fury is helpful.

I'll run demo next lockout Zagam and post the results. The opener you have is very similar to the one I have been using based off my research of the top parsing logs. It produces great opening results but is difficult to keep it if one SF is premature or an extra GCD is hit via movement.

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Even the opening been worse, for overrall dps I would not use Imp Swarm glyph.

 

Looks like weird now.

Edited by JvChequer

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I've been using GoServ Felguard at the start (along with Doomguard) before HoG to get out an extra spell before I proc BBoY. Not sure if it's necessary, or even if this means less damage as it's out before PBI has procced (usually) and doesn't get the full duration.

 

Thoughts?

 

I'll try to modify my opener a bit like the one you posted. 

 

Another thing I was doing was dropping 1 extra HoG towards the end before jumping back in for some soul fires. Any input on this?

This is what I used to do as well.  However, the top parsers are not doing this.  My best guess is because a Shadowbolt generates more Demonic Fury than Shadowflame and essentially guarantees an additional buffed Soul Fire.  You also get to gamble in that 8% of the time, you ALSO proc a Hand of Guldan with the 4pc.  In regards to using the Grimoire for procs, I've found any casted spell has a chance to proc as long as it does damage.  Curse of Elements almost always pops my KTT/BBoY much to my dismay.  I would assume that Grimoire:Felguard would do the same since he immediately performs Axe Toss, but I'm unsure if this counts for a spell.  In all reality, your pre-casted Soul Fire should pop KTT/BBoY and HOPEFULLY pop your 2pc 20% damage bonus.  The opener I listed lasts exactly 20 seconds from the 3 different Warlocks I looked at and they ended their total DF spent at the 20 second mark with the last Soul Fire.

 

This is what I do when I play demo. The extra demonic fury is helpful.

I'll run demo next lockout Zagam and post the results. The opener you have is very similar to the one I have been using based off my research of the top parsing logs. It produces great opening results but is difficult to keep it if one SF is premature or an extra GCD is hit via movement.

You generate less Demonic Fury from a single Hand of Guldan than you do from a single Shadowbolt.  SF generates 2 per enemy hit per damage, so typically you're looking at under 25 unless you've reached some mega threshold to get Shadowflame to add 7 ticks (unsure on numbers exactly right now).  Totally understood if the SF comes at a bad time or something bad happens like Malkorok flinging you up in the air.  In my research, I found some RNG doing some crazy batshit things.  The top Destro parse 25H Iron Juggernaut had 11 procs of KTT - ELEVEN - for an uptime of 41%.  That's just ridiculous.  By contrast, the top Demo parse that I was analyzing had only 2 procs of BBoY yet still pushed #1.  It's because his Doom critted more than it should have and he happened to line up the Christmas Day Parade of procs right at 2:00 when all his shit came back off CD.  I had this happen once and spiked back up to 900k DPS without Bloodlust and maintained it for 30 seconds.  Demo can be really...weird like that.

 

Even the opening been worse, for overrall dps I would not use Imp Swarm glyph.

 

Looks like weird now.

Agreed - as I've proved with the math before.  However, this is to note, as stated above, that you do NOT use Imp Swarm on CD.  With all the procs he had live, his initial Imp Swarm CD was only 35ish seconds.  With the bursted Haste he had, Doom was ticking every 5.2 seconds and more than half of those produced Imps, so the 35 seconds of no Demonic Calling actually proved to be a DPS gain during the burst.  Over the next 85 seconds, he only lost 8 seconds worth of Imps - in other words, he lost 0 additional Imps until he popped Imp Swarm again at the 2:00 mark.  This time, however, Imp Swarm went to a 55 second CD (no Berserking or Bloodlust, but still had TR), so he ended up coming ahead up until about 15 seconds until it came off CD.  Up through 4 minutes of time, he lost only ONE IMP to gain the burst from Imp Swarm.  With his timing, he also popped Imp Swarm to sustain his execute phase damage which made sense because he wasn't going to see extra Imp procs anyways so he pulled them out together.

 

TL;DR - over a longhaul of single target DPS, I think mathematically Imp Swarm comes out VERY even, but it can pull ahead if snapshotted and used at the exact right time.  Here, I think this guy lost 1 Imp with normal DPS but gained a TON of empowered Imps when it mattered.  I don't mean empowered with Dark Soul - I mean the DF generation empowered more Soul Fire casts which should be your top damage source followed by Doom.

 

Its great for the opener otherwise there is a lot of fury starvation going on.

Read above - I think it can come out ahead under a certain set of circumstances.  It will, however, be a loss unless used perfectly.  The loss should be relatively low.  This just puts Demonology into a weird place where the mountains are higher and the valleys are lower (DPS peaks and bottoms).

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Ended up getting sat for IJ. A top guild fell apart on stormreaver, so we took on like 6 new apps. 

 

Sorry Zagam!

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Meh, no big deal.  We're throwing bodies at Garrosh tonight after beasting P1 in 10 pulls.  We're going to fix some things and make some solid progress.  I've watched so many videos and I can't see the difficulty in the fight as long as people are in the right place at the right time. 

 

After that, I'll be picking up apps and playing Demonology - aka having fun. 

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as long as garrosh DPS and survivability is stressed to everyone then the fight is really easy. getting the first kill could be a bit random depending on everyone being able to handle malice and bombardment/clump-check in p4 without needing to see it a bunch of times.

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Not thinking it's easy at all D:

250 wipes (only 50 worth it called even "tries" ) so long and we manage until 3% to phase 4.

Btw, we are solo healing it to skip T2.

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We did 10 man in 100 pulls. 2 healed with one pretty undergeared dps.

Biggest issue is t1. We skipped t2 and always aimed for 20% or less going into it otherwise wed have to deal with 2 empowered whirling before p3.

P3 with one whirling isnt too bad and p4 we got in 4 attempts.

We dont kill weapons so I used them for ember building.

Needed the glyph for T1 but I do like it lining up with DS and PBI for squeezing out an extra CB thanks to massively increased ember gen.

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I was sat last night due to other circumstances running my life. The last 4 bosses will be done as Demo for analysis. Is there a specific haste cap you're looking for as demo? I have all the heroic trinkets if you're looking for something specific.

 

Currently running:

 

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/nerzhul/Philcoli%C3%B1s/simple

Edited by PhilColins

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No particular Haste cap - I'll be able to figure out what you're at from your logs, not your armory. 

 

In regards to Garrosh, Phase 1 isn't difficult at all and P2 and P3 are scripted identically to normal mode just with heavier damage.  Transition 1 is where we hit our first wall - for the transition, me and Locky are doing 10M+ to the adds, but our Spriest is doing 3M and the rest of our group is hovering between 5 and 7M.  We (I as the raid leader) need to figure out how to coordinate people better and line up CDs so we can beat the first transition.

 

Why is everyone so adamant about skipping the 2nd transition?  It doesn't look hard, and with two Destruction Warlocks, those adds would absolutely be obliterated at the top of the ramp.  Our limitation is that we don't have a Disc Priest so solo healing is out of the question.  Empowered Whirls also don't hit for a lot if you're not standing on his dick when he's spinning - then again, we're using two healers, so you guys who are solo healing might not have the throughput for that.

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Skipping second transition because we can. DPS is high enough with gear levels these days that you only get one empowered whirling in p2 and p3.

 

In 25 man the second transition is a piece of cake. You have multiple hunters to misdirect adds, you have multiple druids to stampeding roar all the way to the top, and you have DK's for mass gripping adds for easy nuke.

 

In 10 man you likely have only 1 misdirect, 1 roar, and no DK to grip. We also had 2 pain suppression's for the warrior tank who dropped taunt banner at the top but who also had tons of adds hitting him all the way up, in 10 man you have 1 or none.

 

You don't have all these options on 10 man so it can be a bit messy. Adds don't always line up etc.

 

Yeah we could do the transition (we did it successfully a couple times when we didn't make the % for skipping 2 empowered whirls) but it basically took one aspect of progression out of the picture, and we just wanted the boss dead asap before our tank went on holiday.

Edited by Liquidsteel

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Our core almost did 1 tank and 1 heal btw, but our Warrior it's just too squishy and our DK just sucks at DPsing.

 

If we have a good Paladin ou Monk, probably we would just push 8 dps and burn boss down like a boss.

 

1 tank it's just problematic in P3 with mass explosions, but every cd would be popped this part, with 8 dps P2 would be fast as hell and ticks reset every whirlwind, with a great self-heal it's not that problematic.

 

P4 2 tanks it's irrelevant.

 

 

Btw, my core reached at P4 3 times yersterday, some tard stay in front of Iron Star and wiped us at 25% of boss.

 

Hope Garrosh downs today.

Edited by JvChequer

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What if we have two Druids and two Destruction Warlocks with a Hunter to MD?  Just seems quite easy for two of our 3 Paladins to BoP the Warlocks on their way up, Salve them at the top, and watch them absolutely melt the adds.  Two Stampeding Roars should allow for a quick arrival at the top and 2x Shadowfurys or a Binding Arrow should be more than sufficient to stun them. 

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Every core use his weapons and strategy mine's just feel that we have more power than utility and we're using brute force instead optimal use of mechanics.

Btw, even without two druids, u could use Drums of Speed.

Good luck at T2, for me it's quite annoying, mainly because it garantees an Empowered Whirlwind before P3 and EW are devastating.

We're handle only with one the whole fight and it's massive dangerous to us until now.

Edited by JvChequer

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I think it depends on your comp more than anything.

 

It just made sense for us to skip it as we were ok on dps. The other lock in my guild played destro too but hes just come back from a 4 month break with 570 ilvl, normal BBoY as his second trinket and no 4 set. Also barely played destruction in his life. He did half my dps, so with a full raid team you will easily be able to skip it. Our best attempt had him at 15% going into t2. I bet with good RNG you could push him before T2 even arrives?

 

On paper it looks easy to just rush to the top and aoe, but those adds will stick to someone else and not make it, someone will get hit by the fear etc.

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Guys, we're all getting really hypothetical here. This is assuming Locky can manage to actually kill the engineer..... tongue.png

 

(Made my monday watching you guys BTW)

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I'm the one killing engineers...I only caused 6 wipes the first time learning the fight with the Engineer.  From what I understand, that's pretty damn good.

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I'm the one killing engineers...I only caused 6 wipes the first time learning the fight with the Engineer.  From what I understand, that's pretty damn good.

 

Oh? I thought it was locky all night... OOPS!

 

It seemed like you guys were making fine progress on it. I just thought it was hilarious seeing you guys wipe to engineers.

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