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whiteknightfall

Help with new Destro Warlock

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Hello,

I'm posting in regards to the Warlock we recently added to our Raid roster. He's playing the class and spec due to the needs of our raid team, though as we're still gearing him, his DPS struggles to get past 200k regularly. Any willing souls more familiar with the class/spec able to help me get him where he needs to be?

His rotation is based on Icy Veins recommendations, though I worry he doesn't fully understand the playstyle needed to really push the DPS his gear can provide. He recently acquired the Bindings trinket off Immerseus, though it doesn't appear to really change his DPS by the end of a fight at all. He was saving his Chaos Bolts until have 3.5 embers or more + trinket proc before blowing, but he recently changed to using them on proc every time - still no difference.

Logs provided below are from this past week. We started Heroics, but all the kills are on normal difficulty. (Also, please be kind, the spirit gear he has is temporary until we can get better to drop for him.)

Any help or insight would be appreciated.

---

Armory: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/thunderhorn/Piv/advanced

Logs (Norushen - Nazgrim): http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/jn0167cyrm8puvna/

Logs (Malkorok - Klaxxi): http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/96g720qtrth96k3u/analyze/dd/source/?s=2853&e=3123

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Hello,

I'm posting in regards to the Warlock we recently added to our Raid roster. He's playing the class and spec due to the needs of our raid team, though as we're still gearing him, his DPS struggles to get past 200k regularly. Any willing souls more familiar with the class/spec able to help me get him where he needs to be?

His rotation is based on Icy Veins recommendations, though I worry he doesn't fully understand the playstyle needed to really push the DPS his gear can provide. He recently acquired the Bindings trinket off Immerseus, though it doesn't appear to really change his DPS by the end of a fight at all. He was saving his Chaos Bolts until have 3.5 embers or more + trinket proc before blowing, but he recently changed to using them on proc every time - still no difference.

Logs provided below are from this past week. We started Heroics, but all the kills are on normal difficulty. (Also, please be kind, the spirit gear he has is temporary until we can get better to drop for him.)

Any help or insight would be appreciated.

---

Armory: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/thunderhorn/Piv/advanced

Logs (Norushen - Nazgrim): http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/jn0167cyrm8puvna/

Logs (Malkorok - Klaxxi): http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/96g720qtrth96k3u/analyze/dd/source/?s=2853&e=3123

 

Can you upload to warcraft logs? Its MUCH easier to see how he decided to use chaos bolt on that website, that being said from the expression editor I gather the following.

 

On Iron Juggernaut Piv didn't cast a single chaos bolt until after both his toxic power and expanded mind wore off, this is a huge dps loss. He also didn't use dark soul until after both his trinkets wore off and AFTER he casted 3 chaos bolts.

 

Immolate uptime is good, but avg chaos bolt damage is very, very low. 

 

On Malkorok, besides avg chaos bolt and likely an inefficient opener, there is just a general lack of casts. Only 8 chaos bolts and 61 incinerates, this is just not being comfortable with the spec. He should take KJC and just always be casting something.

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Big difference in saying 'he's playing based off of the Icy-Veins rotation' and actually performing it.  As Gar already commented, there are some hyper-critical issues with his Chaos Bolt issues. 

 

Also, HE should be coming here - not you.  Relaying information on what he should be doing is a telling sign that his efforts are lacking.  He should be coming here, reading the guides and F.A.Q.'s and learning how to be a better player.  There is never an excuse for a player to receive 2nd hand information.

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Alrighty... While I agree with zag, I also understand how it is being a rl.

His gear is terribly itemized... Many of the pieces waste secondary stats on spirit, which is why his crit/mastery/haste rating is so low. He also doesn't have 4pc, which is a large dps increase. Legendary cape makes a difference too. I realize you're just trying to chock him full of ilvl, but.... Idk. Philosophy, I guess.

His burst is only 400k on IJ. This indicates to me he either got massively screwed by rng, or isn't performing the opener well. His incinerate damage is significantly higher than that of chaos bolt. Over the entire fight, about 4:30, he cast 17. This is abysmally low from my experience. Considering I'm filling an ember every 8 seconds or so. He was probably ember capped for a large portion of this fight. Immo uptime seems good, but that won't boost his dps by what you want.

On shamans, his chaos bolt damage is abysmal. It's less than both of his immos. This is a massive dps loss. He cast havoc four times, with the glyph, which is good, but cast 8 chaos bolts the entire fight, meaning he either cast only chaos bolt when havoc was available, ignoring shadowburn <20%, or this is a coincidence, and he just has an incredibly low number of chaos bolts. His multidotting is also sub-par, equalling 100% uptime, but only when adding both bosses. This isn't a huge dps difference, but It's worth working on.

That's about as in depth as I can go on my phone, sorry. But overall. I'd tell him to pick his chaos bolt damage up. It's consistently extremely low. He seems to have good knowledge of havoc, but poor skill in actually managing the rotation. It seems almost like an lfr hero. Someone who knows just enough about their class to pass, but underperforms in a serious way when asked to actually maximize and pump out numbers.

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I'm posting in regards to the Warlock we recently added to our Raid roster.

 

 

Short story is that he is bad. He's screwing up on talents, gear options, reforging, and basic DPS prioritizes. Tbh, I think he's TELLING you that he is doing the leg work and reading what the guides say but he really hasn't, if he has then he isn't applying the information.

 

Tell him to make a post and we can teach him, relaying second hand won't do much.

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As requested, here's the link to Warcraft Logs, after finally getting it straightened out. I only have one log to post, which is our last night of raid (Malkorok - Klaxxi).

http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/6aDqhwRGk9d1ftFZ#source=11&fight=11

As for gear, we've been trying to gear him up quickly while testing out his ability to play the spec. RNG has been good, then bad, so a spirit piece versus a sub-496 seemed like something that could at least get him through until we get better. But his DPS never seeming to make that hurdle up and over 200k worries me, which is why I'm here.

Thanks to all those who have helped out thus far, and while I understand talking to me isn't the most ideal, it's the most I can do at this point to try and help out. I'm honestly starting to think maybe pushing him Affliction might work out better for us since he doesn't appear to understand how to push Destro, long as he can grasp it well enough.

But again, if there's anything I can instill upon him to further the cause of increasing his dps, I'm all ears. Looks like Chaos Bolt usage is the culprit, which I've been working with him on increasing...

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I understand how it is. Spirit gear sucks... But It's not causing him to lose 170k dps. I understand how that goes.

At that ilvl, I feel an average of 200k is a reasonable expectation. I cannot imagine him pushing good numbers as affliction. It's, at least in my opinion, a lot harder spec to understand properly. Moreover, it is garbage on several fights (without cheesing it.). Destro is by far considered "the progression spec." And pulls a good 40k dos ahead of aff on a 6 minute fight, without RNGsus showing up somewhere. You gotta do what you need to as RL, but finding a good destro lock will, likely, outclass this guy even if he respecs and is an aff all-star. It's just not strong on most progression fights.

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Thanks to all those who have helped out thus far, and while I understand talking to me isn't the most ideal, it's the most I can do at this point to try and help out. I'm honestly starting to think maybe pushing him Affliction might work out better for us since he doesn't appear to understand how to push Destro, long as he can grasp it well enough.

 

 

I don't have anywhere near the raiding experience or chops as most of the others who post here do, but I do think pushing him into Affliction is a bad idea.  For most people it has a steeper learning curve.   To get the best numbers you need to know when to 'snapshot' your DoTs and refresh them (you'll probably need an Addon like AffDots).  And in multi-target fights, it takes a lot of practice to keep DoTs up on everything. 

 

Out of curiosity, why did you make him go Affliction.  I thought Blizzard (at least until next tier) was moving away from making any one class 'required' in raids.

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Also affliction, despite doing just plain worst dps than destro at that gear level, relies a ton on the opener, and on malkorok you guys lusted mid fight which will SEVERELY gimp his affliction damage. Anyway, pertaining to the warcraft logs fight, he only casted 2 out of 8 chaos bolts with even a single int proc and none of his 6 shadowburns had any int procs.

 

He casted curse of elements 3 times on a fight that didn't last longer than 5 minutes, and used mortal coil instead of one of his other extremely superior defensive cooldowns...

 

He's going to need to put in the time himself to practice it seems like, the mechanics and actual button pressing of this game are attainable for anyone in a short amount of time who wants to reach above average in my opinion. 

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I understand how it is. Spirit gear sucks... But It's not causing him to lose 170k dps. I understand how that goes.

At that ilvl, I feel an average of 200k is a reasonable expectation. I cannot imagine him pushing good numbers as affliction. It's, at least in my opinion, a lot harder spec to understand properly. Moreover, it is garbage on several fights (without cheesing it.). Destro is by far considered "the progression spec." And pulls a good 40k dos ahead of aff on a 6 minute fight, without RNGsus showing up somewhere. You gotta do what you need to as RL, but finding a good destro lock will, likely, outclass this guy even if he respecs and is an aff all-star. It's just not strong on most progression fights.

sorry to disagree with you but he should be pulling at least 240k ish dps. his uptime on Immolate is low. it should be over 95% for each fight but he is averaging 80-85% uptime. the only fight he is good with blackfues at 98% that will help him do better dps.

Why is he not upgrading his gear?  at this point most of his gear should be upgraded. the im guessing it a vp issues.

he should be reforing to mast and haste not crit. at least 6 ish of his reforging  are reforging to crit. it look like he dose not understand about Stat Priority.

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sorry to disagree with you but he should be pulling at least 240k ish dps. his uptime on Immolate is low. it should be over 95% for each fight but he is averaging 80-85% uptime. the only fight he is good with blackfues at 98% that will help him do better dps.

Why is he not upgrading his gear?  at this point most of his gear should be upgraded. the im guessing it a vp issues.

he should be reforing to mast and haste not crit. at least 6 ish of his reforging  are reforging to crit. it look like he dose not understand about Stat Priority.

 

 

240k in his gear with no cloak/gem is a little high, I would expect closer to  200k on Malk.

 

I think you're not reading his armory correctly, he has mastery on all of his gear.

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sorry to disagree with you but he should be pulling at least 240k ish dps. his uptime on Immolate is low. it should be over 95% for each fight but he is averaging 80-85% uptime. the only fight he is good with blackfues at 98% that will help him do better dps.

Why is he not upgrading his gear?  at this point most of his gear should be upgraded. the im guessing it a vp issues.

he should be reforing to mast and haste not crit. at least 6 ish of his reforging  are reforging to crit. it look like he dose not understand about Stat Priority.

260k would be my guess @ his ilvl with 4 pc and legendary cloak on a fight like malk or jug. Considering he's new, and the fights I saw his immo uptime was 95% or so, but I didn't dig through all the logs. Given spirit gear plus inexperience, I docked him 60k, to be generous.

Your arguments are erroneous.mastery > crit = haste. The actual difference in the two is very little. I know liquid and I are rocking the 10124 haste cap, but locky, kazi, and zag last I checked were sat at the lowest amount of haste they could muster. Dps difference in the system is minimal. and won't increase his dps by 100k regularly. It's a playstyle issue as to which priority you take. As for gear upgrades, It's hard to say, but again, It's not the primary problem.

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Actually im at 12.2k. Lets me switch black blood and hit either 13737 or 14880 for afflic/demo respectively.

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Actually im at 12.2k. Lets me switch black blood and hit either 13737 or 14880 for afflic/demo respectively.

My bad. I thought you were sat @ 10124, or like, a little more for demo w/ bboy. Lol.

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260k would be my guess @ his ilvl with 4 pc and legendary cloak on a fight like malk or jug. Considering he's new, and the fights I saw his immo uptime was 95% or so, but I didn't dig through all the logs. Given spirit gear plus inexperience, I docked him 60k, to be generous.

Your arguments are erroneous.mastery > crit = haste. The actual difference in the two is very little. I know liquid and I are rocking the 10124 haste cap, but locky, kazi, and zag last I checked were sat at the lowest amount of haste they could muster. Dps difference in the system is minimal. and won't increase his dps by 100k regularly. It's a playstyle issue as to which priority you take. As for gear upgrades, It's hard to say, but again, It's not the primary problem.

at a 553 item levels he should be pulling all most 300k so - 60 k hell i will even give him 80 k he should be pulling 220 with the gear he has. yes i can see the well i did dig throw the logs and the most single targ fight he only had 87% uptime on immo for many other fights he was low. his avg is about 80% uptime. why yes that wont get him 100k more dps every little bit helps

as for my haste vs crit all im saying is their close but when you reforge out of one of the stat to put in the other for no reason like he did he reforged haste to crit for no real reason. when you get 2 stats that are = you should not reforge out of one to the other. and yes

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At 559 ilvl I was simming at 300k dps. I remember because swapping galakras head with normal tier bumped me up by 15k and is why I quote the 4 set as being 5% increase.

You're overestimating his dps Clayton. Theres no way a 554 dps in spirit gear is gonna break 300k. No way.

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at a 553 item levels he should be pulling all most 300k so - 60 k hell i will even give him 80 k he should be pulling 220 with the gear he has. yes i can see the well i did dig throw the logs and the most single targ fight he only had 87% uptime on immo for many other fights he was low. his avg is about 80% uptime. why yes that wont get him 100k more dps every little bit helps

as for my haste vs crit all im saying is their close but when you reforge out of one of the stat to put in the other for no reason like he did he reforged haste to crit for no real reason. when you get 2 stats that are = you should not reforge out of one to the other. and yes

 

 

I can barely understand your post. You should strongly consider proof reading or putting it in Word and running a spell/grammar check before posting.

 

 

 

You're overestimating his dps Clayton. Theres no way a 554 dps in spirit gear is gonna break 300k. No way.

 

 

This. With a LMG at 550 ilvl I was putting up top US ranks (for the time they were logged) at sub 300k.

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Clayton, Idk where you're getting 300k dps at 554 ilvl without 4pc, lmg, cloak, and in a realistic encounter, but I apparently need to start using this math. Lol. I expect to pull 300k on most fights @ my ilvl. There's no way in hell this guy could muster that. Hell, @ 560 ilvl, with 4pc and cloak, I started simming 300k. The numbers you're throwing out there are just totally unrealistic, as pointed out before.

As for haste v crit, the decision is totally arbitrary. You're criticizing his reforge which isn't all that bad. Which way you take the reforge is totally up to taste. Maybe you're just not making your point effectively, but reforfing out of one stat, into a stat that is equal to it is, by definition, equivalent. That's just math...

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