Damien

[Archived] Guardian Druid 5.4

150 posts in this topic

When discussing the profession bonuses, you mention that Enchanting gives +120 Stamina from the ring enchant. It might be worth clarifying that it's +60 Stamina per ring, two rings.

It's also worth noting that there's an alternative +40 Agility per ring enchant for a total of +80 Agility; if you have enough HP, that's probably better than the Stamina route and makes Enchanting competitive with the other professions that can give agility enhancements.

Of course, you can have one ring +AGI and the other +STA if you like.

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Regarding Tier 5 Talents:

Currently, we feel that Posted ImageSoul of the Forest is the best choice, but it remains to be seen how things will develop.

While Soul of the forest is a great talent to have a steady supply of rage over the course of the fight, I think that Incarnation might be a better choice.

My reasoning being is that when you pop Incarnation, all your melee abilities (specifically Mangle) have no CD. So you can spam Mangle and have an endless supply of rage to fuel your defensive abilities for the duration.

You say Berserk is not a defensive CD, but an offensive one. I see your reasoning because of how short it lasts, but it can be used defensively if you are somehow gasping for rage. Nonetheless, I understand your point on Berserk and actually might change my play style to suit it.

Edited by krazyito65

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Thank you for this great guide, I have used it as a major reference point while gearing, gemming, rotation, etc. As a bear tank, may i add that the /script DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage("\124cffffffff\124Hitem:43332:0:0:0:0:0:0:0:0\124h[Glyph of Grace]\124h\124r"); is great during fight mechanics that throw you into the air. it has saved me a few times. Once again, thank you for the awesome guide.

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Thank you for this great guide. I have used it as a major reference and learning tool while Specing, gemming, re-forging, learning my proper rotation, etc. I would like to add, as a Bear Tank i find inv_glyph_minordruid.jpgGlyph of Grace to be great. its only a minor glyph, but it has saved me on multiple occasions due to boss mechanics throwing me into the air. Thanks again for all the work and research that you have done.

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Regarding Tier 5 Talents:

While Soul of the forest is a great talent to have a steady supply of rage over the course of the fight, I think that Incarnation might be a better choice.

My reasoning being is that when you pop Incarnation, all your melee abilities (specifically Mangle) have no CD. So you can spam Mangle and have an endless supply of rage to fuel your defensive abilities for the duration.

You say Berserk is not a defensive CD, but an offensive one. I see your reasoning because of how short it lasts, but it can be used defensively if you are somehow gasping for rage. Nonetheless, I understand your point on Berserk and actually might change my play style to suit it.

Thank you for this analysis. Perhaps I'm alone in my way of thinking, but while I do see the theoretical offensive benefits of Berserk and Incarnation, practically, they don't really seem to be that strong.

In the case of Incarnation, you have practically no cooldown on Mangle for 30 seconds. This means you can cast about 20 Mangles while the cooldown is active. The number is realistically closer to 15, if you want to maintain Thrash and Lacerate on the target. So, 15 Mangles, at 5 rage per Mangle is a grand total of 75 rage. In other words, Incarnation allows you to cast one Savage Defense or one full Frenzied Regeneration, every 3 minutes. Assuming the additional 15 rage helps you complement an already existing amount of 45 rage, it may possibly let you cast two survival cooldowns. While it is a benefit to your survivability, it seems an utterly minor one to me. I certainly can never see myself thinking "Oh, this looks like a very dangerous situation. No problem though, I've got Incarnation available!"

Now, is Soul of the Forest better for survival? I don't necessarily think it is. You cast somewhere around 12 Mangles per minute in a normal rotation (depends on how many times its cooldown is reset by procs), so around 36 per 3 minutes. At an additional 2 rage per Mangle from Soul of the Forest, we see that it's almost an identical rage gain as from Incarnation. In fact, I would argue that it's slightly worse than Incarnation for survival, since at least Incarnation gives you all the rage more or less at once.

In any case, all these cooldowns are rather weak survival tools, sadly.

I will no doubt make edits to the guide, both in terms of wording and content, as things change or new information comes to light, or my own view of things changes :)

Thank you very much for your post.

Thank you for this great guide. I have used it as a major reference and learning tool while Specing, gemming, re-forging, learning my proper rotation, etc. I would like to add, as a Bear Tank i find inv_glyph_minordruid.jpgGlyph of Grace to be great. its only a minor glyph, but it has saved me on multiple occasions due to boss mechanics throwing me into the air. Thanks again for all the work and research that you have done.

You are welcome. I'm glad you enjoyed the guide. I hadn't thought of that glyph, but I suppose it could indeed be useful on some fights. I will add it :)

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Thanks Vlad. I hadn't thought of it mathematically. I have been tanking for a while in cata as an OS and when I came here to learn the new tanking buttons I thought Incarnation was a better rage generating tool then Soul of the forest.

With your numbers it seems that yes, they do give about the same amount of rage, but as you said, Incarnation gives it all at once, which reinforces my want for it to be able to choose when to gain all the rage. I tend to find that I don't worry about the uptimes of my debuffs during that time though because I'd rather focus on surviving for the duration of the CD which means using mangle and my survival buttons as many times as possible.

Other times I think it is useful is if I want to use it as a DPS cooldown, then I spam mangle endlessly (and try to keep up lacerate and thrash) while also spam Maul as much as possible, only stopping to gain a bit more rage through mangle.

Lastly, I have one more question, when do you think Enrage is best used? On CD? When I just finished using a ton of rage on survival? I tend to find myself not using it as much as I would like.

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As said I think that's the Shaman spell (you can delete my guest post, made an acc Posted Image):

5.3. Mastery: Nature's Guardian

Your Mastery is Posted ImageNature's Guardian. It increases your armor by a percentage value. This provides you with passive mitigation against Physical damage

Edited by Gans

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As said I think that's the Shaman spell (you can delete my guest post, made an acc Posted Image):

5.3. Mastery: Nature's Guardian

Your Mastery is Posted ImageNature's Guardian. It increases your armor by a percentage value. This provides you with passive mitigation against Physical damage

You are right. I'll be fixing this soon. Thanks! And welcome to the forums.

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This was a great help for me when I came back to bear tanking but I'm a bit confused about the gems part of the guide.

For Meta I get it. However, when it comes to the rest I don't follow why you have written what you did.

You suggest that if the socket bonus is not at least +60 Agility that a red Agility gem should be used. In mist the secondary stat gems give twice as much as primary ones.

In these calculations i'm only using Dodge before diminishing returns as the stat and not mastery or crit just to simplify and only blue quality gems.

I'm using numbers from the mmo-champion bear thread here not my own, an agility gem (+160 agility) will give approximately 0,17% dodge while a pure yellow dodge gem (+320 dodge) would give approximately 0,36% dodge.

951.158596 Agility = 1% Dodge before diminishing returns

885 Dodge Rating = 1% Dodge before diminishing returns

160 agi / 951,159 agi = 0,1684% Dodge before diminishing returnso

320 dodge rating / 885 dodge rating = 0,36159% Dodge before diminishing returns

Therefore a +320 dodge gem would always be better for a yellow socket over a +160 agility one

For a red socket you have [+160 agility] or [+80 agility and +160 dodge]

[+160 agility] = 0,17% Dodge before diminishing returns

[+80 agility and +160 dodge]

80 agi / 951,159 agi = 0,084%

160 dodge / 885 dodge = 0,18%

Total 0,084+0,18 = 0,26% Dodge before diminishing returns

So, here too, the non pure agility one wins, and the pure +320 dodge wins over that, when only looking at Dodge before diminishing returns.

Now if the socket bonus from that red socket gives us agility we have to consider that too.

[+320 dodge] = 0,36%

[+80 agility and +160 dodge] = 0,26%

+160 dodge = 0,18%

0,36% - 0,18% = 0,18%

So to compensate for the lower dodge we need 0,18% dodge from agility to get to an equal level to a +320 dodge gem

x / 951,159 = 0,18%

x = 171,2 agility

We already get 80 from the gem so 171 - 80 = 91 agility.

For a socket bonus to compensate for the difference in dodge between a [+230 dodge] and a [+80 agility and +160 dodge] the bonus needs to give us at least 91 agility.

______________________________________________

Based on the math above

For a Red slots I would suggest using [+320 dodge] unless the socket bonus is over +91 agility, in which case it's more beneficial to use [+80 agility and +160 dodge].

For a Yellow socket I would suggest using only [+320 dodge].

One can of course always exchange the dodge with mastery instead if you are not stacking only dodge.

So for blue sockets I would suggest either [+160 Mastery and +120 Stamina] or [+160 Dodge and +120 Stamina] (green gems) if you feel you need more health otherwise pure dodge or mastery. If the socket bonus gives you over 91 agility go for [+80 Agility and +120 Stamina] (purple).

Edited by Gretuz

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This was a great help for me when I came back to bear tanking but I'm a bit confused about the gems part of the guide.

For Meta I get it. However, when it comes to the rest I don't follow why you have written what you did.

You suggest that if the socket bonus is not at least +60 Agility that a red Agility gem should be used. In mist the secondary stat gems give twice as much as primary ones.

In these calculations i'm only using Dodge before diminishing returns as the stat and not mastery or crit just to simplify and only blue quality gems.

I'm using numbers from the mmo-champion bear thread here not my own, an agility gem (+160 agility) will give approximately 0,17% dodge while a pure yellow dodge gem (+320 dodge) would give approximately 0,36% dodge.

951.158596 Agility = 1% Dodge before diminishing returns

885 Dodge Rating = 1% Dodge before diminishing returns

160 agi / 951,159 agi = 0,1684% Dodge before diminishing returnso

320 dodge rating / 885 dodge rating = 0,36159% Dodge before diminishing returns

Therefore a +320 dodge gem would always be better for a yellow socket over a +160 agility one

For a red socket you have [+160 agility] or [+80 agility and +160 dodge]

[+160 agility] = 0,17% Dodge before diminishing returns

[+80 agility and +160 dodge]

80 agi / 951,159 agi = 0,084%

160 dodge / 885 dodge = 0,18%

Total 0,084+0,18 = 0,26% Dodge before diminishing returns

So, here too, the non pure agility one wins, and the pure +320 dodge wins over that, when only looking at Dodge before diminishing returns.

Now if the socket bonus from that red socket gives us agility we have to consider that too.

[+320 dodge] = 0,36%

[+80 agility and +160 dodge] = 0,26%

+160 dodge = 0,18%

0,36% - 0,18% = 0,18%

So to compensate for the lower dodge we need 0,18% dodge from agility to get to an equal level to a +320 dodge gem

x / 951,159 = 0,18%

x = 171,2 agility

We already get 80 from the gem so 171 - 80 = 91 agility.

For a socket bonus to compensate for the difference in dodge between a [+230 dodge] and a [+80 agility and +160 dodge] the bonus needs to give us at least 91 agility.

______________________________________________

Based on the math above

For a Red slots I would suggest using [+320 dodge] unless the socket bonus is over +91 agility, in which case it's more beneficial to use [+80 agility and +160 dodge].

For a Yellow socket I would suggest using only [+320 dodge].

One can of course always exchange the dodge with mastery instead if you are not stacking only dodge.

So for blue sockets I would suggest either [+160 Mastery and +120 Stamina] or [+160 Dodge and +120 Stamina] (green gems) if you feel you need more health otherwise pure dodge or mastery. If the socket bonus gives you over 91 agility go for [+80 Agility and +120 Stamina] (purple).

Thanks for this post. I am wrapping up the final raid guide, and I will take a more in-depth look at this issue later today. One thing to note is that Agility also gives increased attack power (which buffs the healing from Frenzied Regeneration) and improves your critical strike chance (more crits = more rage = more active mitigation).

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In the case of Incarnation, you have practically no cooldown on Mangle for 30 seconds. This means you can cast about 20 Mangles while the cooldown is active. The number is realistically closer to 15, if you want to maintain Thrash and Lacerate on the target. So, 15 Mangles, at 5 rage per Mangle is a grand total of 75 rage.

Why did you exclude the extra Mangle crits?. Also you do not want to maintain Lacerate during Incarnation since doing so is a DPS loss. However you do want to maintain Thrash and FFF.

Thanks for this post. I am wrapping up the final raid guide, and I will take a more in-depth look at this issue later today. One thing to note is that Agility also gives increased attack power (which buffs the healing from Frenzied Regeneration) and improves your critical strike chance (more crits = more rage = more active mitigation).

Yes and no. Frenzied Regen is only increased by 10% of the AP from Agility (and only if you have the 10% AP raid buff) - which is a fairly inconsequential amount. Any additional Rage generated beyond what is needed to maintain maximum Savage Defense uptime doesn't prevent any damage. You reach this amount almost purely by wearing the appropriate gear for setting foot in to Mogu'shan Vaults, let alone Terrace or Heart.

So for pure TDR (total damage reduction) Dodge or Mastery are better for any fight that involves significant damage from melee swings, or damage that is on the combat table or reduced by armor (respectively).

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You posted at the professions that LW , JC and Inscription have enchant bonuses of 330 , 320 and 320 Agility but from Inscription the Shoulder buff is 520 Agility , JC can have 2 gems with 320 Agility each so would be 640 and from LW is 500 on wrists and 285 on legs (legs enchant can have it anyone)

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You posted at the professions that LW , JC and Inscription have enchant bonuses of 330 , 320 and 320 Agility but from Inscription the Shoulder buff is 520 Agility , JC can have 2 gems with 320 Agility each so would be 640 and from LW is 500 on wrists and 285 on legs (legs enchant can have it anyone)

The regular shoulder enchant gives you +200 Agility. The Inscription-only shoulder enchant gives you +520 Agility. If you are a scribe, then you will have +320 Agility on your shoulder enchant compared to someone who is not. The same applies for the other professions.

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Why did you exclude the extra Mangle crits?. Also you do not want to maintain Lacerate during Incarnation since doing so is a DPS loss. However you do want to maintain Thrash and FFF.

Yes and no. Frenzied Regen is only increased by 10% of the AP from Agility (and only if you have the 10% AP raid buff) - which is a fairly inconsequential amount. Any additional Rage generated beyond what is needed to maintain maximum Savage Defense uptime doesn't prevent any damage. You reach this amount almost purely by wearing the appropriate gear for setting foot in to Mogu'shan Vaults, let alone Terrace or Heart.

So for pure TDR (total damage reduction) Dodge or Mastery are better for any fight that involves significant damage from melee swings, or damage that is on the combat table or reduced by armor (respectively).

Regarding excluding Mangle crits, that was my bad for omitting it. It slipped my mind when thinking about it.

Regarding the second point, how do you rate the value of Agility? What is your opinion of it compared to secondary stats? Thanks in advance.

I've updated the talents sections a bit to account for your comment, regarding dropping Lacerate during Incarnation, but keeping up the other two. Thank you :)

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Hello, Berserk ability was replaced with Incarnation: Son of Ursoc.

What do you mean? Incarnation: Son of Ursoc does not replace Berserk. Both are available, and they can even be used at the same time.

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Yes and no. Frenzied Regen is only increased by 10% of the AP from Agility (and only if you have the 10% AP raid buff) - which is a fairly inconsequential amount. Any additional Rage generated beyond what is needed to maintain maximum Savage Defense uptime doesn't prevent any damage. You reach this amount almost purely by wearing the appropriate gear for setting foot in to Mogu'shan Vaults, let alone Terrace or Heart.

does frenzy regen count as a nature spell due to its healing nature? and if thats the case then, wouldnt nurturing instinct would buff the frenzy regen healing capabilities

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does frenzy regen count as a nature spell due to its healing nature? and if thats the case then, wouldnt nurturing instinct would buff the frenzy regen healing capabilities

I don't think that SP effects FR at all. Nurturing Instinct "Increases your nature spell power by 100% of your Agility." and FR "Instantly converts up to 60 Rage into up to (max((AP - 200% of AGI) * 200 / 100,25000% of STA / 100) * 1) health." meaning that it is only effected by your AP and agility, not your SP.

NI will buff your Healing Touches if you go for the talent Nature's Swiftness and use it to heal yourself with HT, but personally I feel that Renewal is way stronger as it is a set 30% and, just tried this (without raid buffs) HT heals me for 15%.

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In the blue socket option, why would you gem agi hit? I don't think it's even a valuable stat, surely 80agi 180 stam is far more valuable this early in the game?

So long as you have around 4% hit as a tank (which you get from gear alone), you should be fine? I'm seeing absolutely no one but brewmasters gem hit, and I'm not even sure why that is.

I don't think tanks should focus on hit at all, even if Savage Defense is used due to crits. You have about 5 abilities you can more or less spam as a bear, they're almost guaranteed to hit (and crit). Not to mention, you also have defensive cooldowns if you need them (for whatever reason you're not critting)

I'd get rid of the agi+hit, hit provides nothing, in fact less than expertise would from the front of a boss. With my gem setup I'm using SD almost constantly. To back it up, you can also pop two incredibly OP dodge trinkets during heavy damage sprees and you're just invincible.

Some tanks are even gemming crit. I personally think it's down to your healers how you can gem, but I definitely wouldn't gem hit, and I don't hate my healers enough to gem pure crit.

Also adding to the gem category, socket bonuses with +120 are all over the place. You can gem pure dodge or pure mastery in these yellow slots, it might be worth noting this down too. All in all, thanks for the helpful guide, it's helped me a fair bit since EJ still hasn't been arsed to make a bear thread.. and also since bears are so sparse I can't communicate with them often.

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You can gem hit or crit to generate LOADS more rage. Its all fight specific really.

Take a look at Stone guard for example. They apply a BLEED on you which you can't dodge AT ALL. They melee you for like 20k, which with at 400k HP is nothing. The bleed is what is doing most of the damage and the best way to mitigate that damage unfortunately, is through Frenzied Regen which requires tons of rage. Dodge really does not do much on a fight like that.

Edited by krazyito65

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In the blue socket option, why would you gem agi hit? I don't think it's even a valuable stat, surely 80agi 180 stam is far more valuable this early in the game?

So long as you have around 4% hit as a tank (which you get from gear alone), you should be fine? I'm seeing absolutely no one but brewmasters gem hit, and I'm not even sure why that is.

I don't think tanks should focus on hit at all, even if Savage Defense is used due to crits. You have about 5 abilities you can more or less spam as a bear, they're almost guaranteed to hit (and crit). Not to mention, you also have defensive cooldowns if you need them (for whatever reason you're not critting)

I'd get rid of the agi+hit, hit provides nothing, in fact less than expertise would from the front of a boss. With my gem setup I'm using SD almost constantly. To back it up, you can also pop two incredibly OP dodge trinkets during heavy damage sprees and you're just invincible.

Some tanks are even gemming crit. I personally think it's down to your healers how you can gem, but I definitely wouldn't gem hit, and I don't hate my healers enough to gem pure crit.

Also adding to the gem category, socket bonuses with +120 are all over the place. You can gem pure dodge or pure mastery in these yellow slots, it might be worth noting this down too. All in all, thanks for the helpful guide, it's helped me a fair bit since EJ still hasn't been arsed to make a bear thread.. and also since bears are so sparse I can't communicate with them often.

There are many benefits to Hit Rating, Expertise Rating, Critical Strike Rating, Haste Rating etc. for all tanks now, and Guardian Druids are no exception. You need an ample rage generation to be able to use your active survival cooldowns, and for this, you need hit and expertise. Crit

further boosts your rage generation, as does haste. If you're relying on pure avoidance and stamina, you and your healers are in for a bad time.

I know it might look counter-intuitive to someone who has been tanking for a long time and is used to the old default tanking stats, but things have changed.

You really need to understand the synergy between your stats now, and the importance of rage and active damage mitigation. Bears are no longer the punching bag with high avoidance and two long-cooldown defensive abilities.

Also what krazyito said.

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As far as the 'accepted wisdom', that I've seen on most other sites I read, since 5.0.5 the default stat weighting is:

1. Stam till you have enough

2. Mastery for mitigation

3. Enough Crit for Rage generation to meet the RPS needs to get a 66% SD (after the 45s mark)

4. Dodge for avoidance.

5. Hit / Exp if rage generation continues to be an issue, but no-where near capping.

Different fights call for different reforges, but that's what I've seen as the primary gem/enchant strategy for Guardians. Is the IV guide's stats up to date, since it lists Agi above others and raises Dodge to equivalent to Mastery?

Reference example: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/suramar/Arielle/advanced

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Since there's some discussion going on about FR I thought I'd pipe up and put in my opinions and findings. First Gretuz is correct on the FR SP thing. The equations is correct.

Secondly I do agree Renewal is strong I find the utility of NS much more desirable. The second thing about NS is the one minute cd instead of two. What I tend to do is alternate between NS and Healthstone about every 30 seconds as needed. Nice little rotation.

Lastly overall I have found that my stat weights are a bit different and thought I'd share my bear blog posts. I'm always looking for feedback.

http://theetova.blogspot.ca/

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