[Archived] Guardian Druid 5.4

[mstieler 0]

With the changes to Force of Nature, the Treants become a targeted, 20% damage reduction cooldown for the Druid and any raid/party members within 40 yards (as opposed to their previous incarnation as a trio of taunting trees).

Would this change make FoN a viable 4th-tier Talent choice, similar to a Pally's Devotion Aura? Ever since I swapped from my Tier 13 4-piece bonus, I've felt kinda gimped in that I lack a Raid CD, and this seems like it would fit nicely, especially with the 1 minute CD, thouh I have yet to fully test it out and see if the Treants themselves stop the brunt of an attack, or if they take damage from it as well.

Whoops. Feel free to delete this, as I was mixing Beta with Live. Damn.

Also, Luetsuun: Thanks for pointing that out. I'd been neglecting HotW, just leaving it as a passive talent. That sounds much more helpful. Yay more CDs!

Edited November 8, 2012 by mstieler

[Zagam 1,982]

I saw Vlads post, but yesterday Mr. Robot had me gemming me Dodge, now today Stamina. So his post explains nothing." we've been going through a long process of harmonizing the two websites" doesnt look like your guys are doin a very good job and are confusing alot of ppl that follow you both.

Your tone is a bit condescending and uncalled for in a forum where people work their butts off to provide guides for people unable or unwilling to do research themselves. Icy-Veins' guide writers write guides on raids, strategies, and every class and spec. You're focused on one job...tanking...as one class...a Druid...and you're confused? If you ever pick up Simcraft, you can do your own simulations on yourself to find your most beneficial stat. You could aslo try one reforge, do a dungeon, try another, do the same dungeon, and test results. I know everyone wants something for nothing, but at least appreciate that Icy-Veins has given you a medium to discover things you weren't willing to work for yourself.

[Guest Aresk]

I've read through the guide and would like to thank you for the time and effort put into it. However, I was curious on one point: in the enchant section, you list Enchant Bracer - Agility for non-leatherworkers and Fur Lining - Stamina for leatherworkers. As this stamina doesn't seem required (non-leatherworkers don't need it) and Stamina is only top priority until we have enough, would Fur Lining - Agility be more prudent? Any clarification on this matter would be appreciated.

[Tova 6]

So more news from the world of bear. Not much discussion has gone on about FR and glyphed or not so, mostly to the credit to thefool808 on EJ, here's some more info.

Glyph or Unglyphed FR, That Is The Question

From TheFool808 on EJ

total healing = t, FR healing percent = p

t*p = (t - t*p)* .4

p = .4 - .4p

1.4p = .4

p = .4/1.4

p = 28.57%

Essentially we're looking at about >28.57% of our healing Unglyphed is better.

Note in the blog post I extended it to account for your RPS if you're interested in seeing that.

[Vlad 411]

I've read through the guide and would like to thank you for the time and effort put into it. However, I was curious on one point: in the enchant section, you list Enchant Bracer - Agility for non-leatherworkers and Fur Lining - Stamina for leatherworkers. As this stamina doesn't seem required (non-leatherworkers don't need it) and Stamina is only top priority until we have enough, would Fur Lining - Agility be more prudent? Any clarification on this matter would be appreciated.

There is no comparable Stamina enchant on wrists for non-leatherworkers, so out of the alternatives (Dodge, Mastery), we consider the agility one to be best. However, leatherworkers are not subject to the same constraint.

Thank you for your compliments, and I hope this clarifies it.

[Guest Srafty]

Excellent guide, has really helped me fast track my "come back" after not playing for just over 6 mths. thank you very much for the time and effort you have put into it.

[Vlad 411]

Excellent guide, has really helped me fast track my "come back" after not playing for just over 6 mths. thank you very much for the time and effort you have put into it.

Glad you liked it. Thank you :)

[Tarazet 144]

Very nice 5.x guide overall, and one that I keep coming back to even after playing my Guardian Druid since 5.0 launch.

I have to disagree with the comment, in the Profession Perks page, that gathering skills should be avoided with the exception of Herbalism. I would argue that Skinning's Master of Anatomy, since it provides 480 Critical Strike, is at the very least superior to the benefits from Herbalism and Jewelcrafting for the purposes of a Guardian, so it merits a mention since LW is very well suited to all Druids.

Also, in the Statistics Priority & Reforging section, there is a passing mention that Parry Rating provides damage reduction. Though this is only a passing mention, it is a glaring error. Guardian Druids are bears. They fight with their paws, not weapons. Why is that significant, you ask? If you look in the skills tab of any other melee class, you will find the Parry ability. This means they have the ability to parry attacks with their weapons. Druids don't. Because they don't wield their melee weapons, Druids lack the ability to parry, and thus putting points into Parry results in no benefit to a Guardian whatsoever.

[Vlad 411]

Very nice 5.x guide overall, and one that I keep coming back to even after playing my Guardian Druid since 5.0 launch.

I have to disagree with the comment, in the Profession Perks page, that gathering skills should be avoided with the exception of Herbalism. I would argue that Skinning's Master of Anatomy, since it provides 480 Critical Strike, is at the very least superior to the benefits from Herbalism and Jewelcrafting for the purposes of a Guardian, so it merits a mention since LW is very well suited to all Druids.

Also, in the Statistics Priority & Reforging section, there is a passing mention that Parry Rating provides damage reduction. Though this is only a passing mention, it is a glaring error. Guardian Druids are bears. They fight with their paws, not weapons. Why is that significant, you ask? If you look in the skills tab of any other melee class, you will find the Parry ability. This means they have the ability to parry attacks with their weapons. Druids don't. Because they don't wield their melee weapons, Druids lack the ability to parry, and thus putting points into Parry results in no benefit to a Guardian whatsoever.

Thank you for your compliments! You are right about Skinning, and your point is taken.

The party thing is an unfortunate "brainfart" (though I despise the word, I think it's fitting here). Obviously, I know that bears don't parry :)

We will update the guide shortly.

[Krazyito 521]

I have to disagree with the comment, in the Profession Perks page, that gathering skills should be avoided with the exception of Herbalism. I would argue that Skinning's Master of Anatomy, since it provides 480 Critical Strike, is at the very least superior to the benefits from Herbalism and Jewelcrafting for the purposes of a Guardian, so it merits a mention since LW is very well suited to all Druids.

Again, to re-quote myself:

Blacksmithing would be better then skinning becasue you get 2 sockets which is +320 crit each

And JC would still be better then Skinning because you can get TWO +480 crit gems.

Side-note: I do agree (if ONLY) talking about secondary stats, that skinning and mining would be the better choices. But obviously you would gain much more from a primary profession.

Edited December 1, 2012 by krazyito65

[Guest Deemon]

Cenarion Ward is currently quite a weak choice.

My random beariness has some low 440837 hps. With that:

Nature Swiftness + Healing touch => 47674 * 1.5 = 71511/min

Renewal => 30% hps => 132251.1 per 2 minutes => 66125.55/min

Cenarion Ward => 14614*3 = 43842 per 30 seconds => 87684/min

While also being most steady healing, makes it the best choice in my book.

[Tarazet 144]

My random beariness has some low 440837 hps. With that:

Nature Swiftness + Healing touch => 47674 * 1.5 = 71511/min

Renewal => 30% hps => 132251.1 per 2 minutes => 66125.55/min

Cenarion Ward => 14614*3 = 43842 per 30 seconds => 87684/min

While also being most steady healing, makes it the best choice in my book.

It also takes up a GCD every 30 seconds. When you're playing a class that is GCD-locked all the time, that's not a good thing. Nature's Swiftness can also be saved for a time when a battle-res is needed, but you risk death by shifting out of bear form.

[Vlad 411]

It also takes up a GCD every 30 seconds. When you're playing a class that is GCD-locked all the time, that's not a good thing. Nature's Swiftness can also be saved for a time when a battle-res is needed, but you risk death by shifting out of bear form.

I agree with this. If you were a DPS player, and this type of talent choice was available there, the one that gives the most overall damage would most likely be the best choice. But as a tank, it's all about handling each specific situation as it arises, and when it comes to healing, it's probably going to be an emergency situation where you need a solid heal, and not a HoT.

The point about using up additional global cooldowns is also a good one.

[Guest Deemon]

I agree with this. If you were a DPS player, and this type of talent choice was available there, the one that gives the most overall damage would most likely be the best choice. But as a tank, it's all about handling each specific situation as it arises, and when it comes to healing, it's probably going to be an emergency situation where you need a solid heal, and not a HoT. The point about using up additional global cooldowns is also a good one.

We're talking about Guardian talents here, not DPS. Also when you keep this one rolling, you will get more unlikely to emergency situations in the first place. The point about using global cooldown as a tank is relatively irrelevant, as half of the time you arent using it anyway and just waiting for hit cooldowns or rage to regen.

[Tarazet 144]

We're talking about Guardian talents here, not DPS. Also when you keep this one rolling, you will get more unlikely to emergency situations in the first place. The point about using global cooldown as a tank is relatively irrelevant, as half of the time you arent using it anyway and just waiting for hit cooldowns or rage to regen.

Let me also bring up the fact that your HP pool is on the low side for a max level Guardian, and Renew is based on HP. In my tank set and full raid buffs, I have about 550K HP. Now we're talking 165K per two minutes. However, it is also effected by HP-boosting effects such as Might of Ursoc. Say I have Might of Ursoc glyphed. I'm at 50% health, and expecting an alpha strike which may or may not kill me. I use Might of Ursoc, then Renew. MoU heals me from 225K to 292K, but more importantly increases my health pool to 825K. Then I use Renew - at that moment, it will heal me for 247,500. So without even using a global cooldown, I've nearly healed myself to my normal full HP, and I still have room to be topped up by the healers. It's not as good as, say, Lay on Hands, but it has a shorter cooldown and doesn't cause Forbearance.

Tell me that isn't more valuable than a tiny HoT that eats up GCD's and reduces your ability to hold threat. Cenarion Ward is useful for a Restoration Druid because it's a resource-free on-hit heal, so it's a good filler spell to save on mana. For a Guardian, it's not that useful.

Edited December 13, 2012 by Tarazet

[Krazyito 521]

Tell me that isn't more valuable than a tiny HoT that eats up GCD's and reduces your ability to hold threat. Cenarion Ward is useful for a Restoration Druid because it's a resource-free on-hit heal, so it's a good filler spell to save on mana. For a Guardian, it's not that useful.

Even for Restoration it's extremely lack luster. Most of the time a tank will be topped off anyway and it will go straight to over heal. Plus, as restoration, Nature's swiftness is the only form of burst healing you have outside of tree form. Nature's swiftness also makes your healing touch/ regrowth mana free and it doesn't use a GCD. Over-all, CW is a bad choice.

[Vlad 411]

We're talking about Guardian talents here, not DPS. Also when you keep this one rolling, you will get more unlikely to emergency situations in the first place. The point about using global cooldown as a tank is relatively irrelevant, as half of the time you arent using it anyway and just waiting for hit cooldowns or rage to regen.

I'm aware that we're talking about Guardian and not DPS talents here, that's precisely what I was saying in the post you quoted. What I was saying is that you are looking at the overall healing throughput of these talents as though they were DPS talents where the overall values at the end of the fight matter - but they aren't, and it matters not how much healing you had at the end of the fight, but what you can do when you are able to do in an emergency situation.

Blanketing yourself with a HoT throughout the fight will never reduce the likelihood of emergency moments, and it will only slightly reduce their gravity. When your health dips low it is because you had a string of unavoided attacks, you have failed an encounter mechanic, your healer is dead/disconnected/has failed an encounter mechanic.

[Tarazet 144]

I'm aware that we're talking about Guardian and not DPS talents here, that's precisely what I was saying in the post you quoted. What I was saying is that you are looking at the overall healing throughput of these talents as though they were DPS talents where the overall values at the end of the fight matter - but they aren't, and it matters not how much healing you had at the end of the fight, but what you can do when you are able to do in an emergency situation.

Blanketing yourself with a HoT throughout the fight will never reduce the likelihood of emergency moments, and it will only slightly reduce their gravity. When your health dips low it is because you had a string of unavoided attacks, you have failed an encounter mechanic, your healer is dead/disconnected/has failed an encounter mechanic.

Exactly. As a tank, it's not your job to do maintenance or support healing. Healers should be able to deal with small amounts of steady damage effortlessly, and your Leader of the Pack also provides some steady passive healing. The part that you have to take care of is reacting quickly to keep the raid together when SHTF, so you have to think in terms of talents that can turn the tide when you, or others, are in danger. That's your role as a tank.

Nature's Swiftness allows you to do an instant Rebirth without shifting out of bear form, and I used it this way since 5.0. But, I've changed my opinion on it recently. If the other tank dies, and other raid members have battle res available, they should use it instead of you so you can get a hold of the loose mobs. If a healer dies, he will still be OOM when you pick him up, so it's questionable whether this is a benefit to the raid. If you're using it for self-healing, you can use Nature's Swiftness more often than Renew, but chances are, you're not going to be skirting death that often if your raid is functioning properly. Realistically, Nature's Swiftness is great for caster Druids, but Renew is the top choice for the Feral and Guardian specs.

Edited December 14, 2012 by Tarazet

[Krazyito 521]

For anyone who is not familiar English idioms, SHTF means Shit Hits The Fan, or an emergency.

It took me a second to understand what the acronym stood for since it is not widely used like that, but I thought I would mention it here for those people who don't speak English well are are not familiar with common English sayings.

[Guest Matt]

Hey, just curious is there a more up to date BIS slot list anywhere? Curious on peoples opinions trinket wise.

[Guest Guardek]

This was a great help for me when I came back to bear tanking but I'm a bit confused about the gems part of the guide.

For Meta I get it.

Why?

Isn't http://www.wowhead.c...-primal-diamond be better ??

[Guest Footprint]

I've found this guide and all the comments very interesting reading while at work. Honestly by the end im still completely confused. Currently i've gemmed/reforged all of my gear to cap hit and soft cap exp (7.5) and so far i like it. Im debating on using Mrrobot to completely redo everything and see if i notice a big change to my survivability. It could just be my imagination, but missing and less chance to be parried/dodged by the boss seems like a big deal. For aoe fights if you toss a thrash and swipe and end up missing 3 or so of those mobs, you have to wait 3 seconds before you can aoe again, during this time the heals have started and the dps have opened up. This results in a mess of you trying to get all the stray adds that have run amuck as well as trying to keep good threat on the ones you already got. I really dont understand why it's stated you dont need to cap hit/exp. Im doing more research into this to figure it out, just confused for now.

Also something that may or may not be intended as far as talent synergy goes. If you stack Nature's Vigil and Berserk and are also hitting multiple targets (max of 3 of course), the healing returned is increased based on the dmg to all 3 targets. So for nature's vigil single target attack, Berserk'd Mangles count as single target regardless of how many targets are hit.

[Krazyito 521]

I've found this guide and all the comments very interesting reading while at work. Honestly by the end im still completely confused. Currently i've gemmed/reforged all of my gear to cap hit and soft cap exp (7.5) and so far i like it. Im debating on using Mrrobot to completely redo everything and see if i notice a big change to my survivability. It could just be my imagination, but missing and less chance to be parried/dodged by the boss seems like a big deal. For aoe fights if you toss a thrash and swipe and end up missing 3 or so of those mobs, you have to wait 3 seconds before you can aoe again, during this time the heals have started and the dps have opened up. This results in a mess of you trying to get all the stray adds that have run amuck as well as trying to keep good threat on the ones you already got. I really dont understand why it's stated you dont need to cap hit/exp. Im doing more research into this to figure it out, just confused for now.

Also something that may or may not be intended as far as talent synergy goes. If you stack Nature's Vigil and Berserk and are also hitting multiple targets (max of 3 of course), the healing returned is increased based on the dmg to all 3 targets. So for nature's vigil single target attack, Berserk'd Mangles count as single target regardless of how many targets are hit.

See, you would have to be extremely unlucky to miss so many in a row that dps will over take you. Even at 5% hit rating. Threat generation is so high now (what like 500%?) that most of the time it does not matter. The likelihood is pretty slim unless you have a significant amount under 5%. Even if they pull off, you can still taunt, and that will not miss and you can pop a CD like Berserk or Incarnation to try to gain agro.

Which brings me to another point, I like to start a boss (including a single target boss) with Berserk simply because it lets me spam mangle for a good period of time and generate some rage to start with.

[Tarazet 144]

I've heard some buzzing in different places about the Mastery "buff." Let me clear something up: the Mastery stat isn't changed at all. The baseline ability now buffs armor by 12% instead of 10%, and additional Mastery increases armor at a rate of 1% per 400 points, which is the same as before. It remains one of the weakest stats for Guardians, and you will not want to gem, enchant or reforge for it.

[druideena 14]

In the event that you can further choose between several pieces, try to prioritise those that have Mastery Rating and Critical Strike Rating as secondary statistics. Hit Rating and/or Expertise Rating are also good.

You should, then, simply reforge your worst statistic into Dodge Rating.

In the cases that you have gear without Mastery Rating on it, simply choose to reforge one of the existing stats to Mastery Rating or Dodge Rating.

This is from your best in slot page... I'm kinda confused. Reforing to mastery of dodge from haste or crit is going away from rage generation... did this just get overlooked?