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Skoomd

571 ele shaman, dps feels subpar

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Hello, I'm currently 11/14H heroic but I feel my dps is subpar. If anyone with similar gear levels tell me anything new that may help I would love to know.

 

Here's my armory - http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/malganis/Sphongle/advanced

 

Here's my logs - Previous name was Totemms, logs are a bit mixed

http://www.worldoflogs.com/guilds/287834/

http://www.worldoflogs.com/guilds/234932/

 

Current single target dps ranged from 340k-400k, though I just feel that is low. 

 

A few things to note - I do not use searing totem often. I only place it in downtime when I'm not in range of the boss. I feel the minuscule dps it gives is a dps LOSS due to totems being on the GCD. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I have only used unleashed fury all tier. The only times I change the talent is on nazgrim (for all the target switching) and on H spoils, I take primal for the aoe burst.

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I'm not an expert at Elemental, but I always feel that the damage plus buff from Elemenal Blast is a much more comfortable DPS boost than from Unleashed Fury. I mean, you don't normally want to cast UE  without the talent so it feels a bit unnatural.

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Have you considered using a build with more haste? You might find in certain encounters it makes a significant difference. I prefer Mastery too, but for the last few fights in the tier Haste/Mastery is better.

 

You shouldn't ignore searing totem, while it is an annoyance, I believe it does close to the same amount of damage as a lava burst. Making the GCD use worth it.

 

Your dps seems fine. I've been in and out of many guilds throughout the tier and I wouldn't expect more for your ilvl. In fact you're doing more dps than a lot of similar Ele. shamans I run with. You do have near perfect itemization though.

 

I'd suggest using Elemental Blast on more fights. The stat gain isn't very useful as after 87.4% mastery the mastery boost will put you over 100%. And the haste/crit bonuses would only be useful if you ended up using chain lightning immediately after the cast. But for Protectors/Shamans/Nazgrim/Spoils/Siegecrafter you'll want to use EB for the target-switching.

 

Protectors and DS you could argue using UF, but I find when I've used UF on Protectors the debuff often went unused. And for Dark Shamans you're never in a position where you won't be able to target Kardris, but the stat gain does help when you'll have to swap to slimes.

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You should also clarify which logs you'd like looked at. It looks like you were enhance quite a bit.

 

Another thing after looking at the logs very briefly, you should not being doing better than most classes. If pure dps classes are beating you in single-target they're doing their job. Ele. Shamans are OP cleave machines with great utility.

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You shouldn't ignore searing totem, while it is an annoyance, I believe it does close to the same amount of damage as a lava burst. Making the GCD use worth it.

It does about the same amount as a Lava Burst... if you have 0% haste and 0% crit.  On the other hand, it doesn't benefit from mastery or multistrike as best I can tell, so... you're on to something as far as "not always".  However, it has a definitively stronger DPET than Lightning Bolt, and refreshing it with ~5 seconds left (or if it has faded) is undeniably better than casting a Lightning Bolt unless the boss is going to fall over in the next 20 seconds (based on your mastery).  Doing that will probably net you roughly a 2% dps increase.  It's sad.  (Which is why for WoD, it's getting doubled for elemental.)  Also, searing totem can attack Nazgrim during defensive stance without generating rage.  Fun fact!

 

I'm not an expert at Elemental, but I always feel that the damage plus buff from Elemenal Blast is a much more comfortable DPS boost than from Unleashed Fury. I mean, you don't normally want to cast UE  without the talent so it feels a bit unnatural.

Elemental Blast "feels" nicer because it actually does damage directly (and is thus great for Norushen trial, Garrosh siege engineers, etc), but on pure single target UF has superior dps.  If you ever target switch or cast AoE, for any reason, ever, Elemental Blast does pull ahead, though.  Doubly so if you're shackled with crit, because it actually benefits from it (I am jealous of how little crit you have, though).

 

I encourage you to try Elemental Blast and see how you like it.  When I first tried it, I just replaced the Unleash Elements button with the Elemental Blast button and cast it at every opportunity, same as before; Unleashed Elements is so rarely worth using without UF you may as well not waste the keybind.

 

I actually don't know what happens if our mastery gets over 100%.  I'm almost to the point where I can test it with my own gear, but I would hope it works like WIndwalker mastery, in that the spillover chance is for a second overload.  I was going to complain about the lack of target dummies on the Timeless Isle (one of the Celestials buffs gives 20% mastery) and then I remembered that archaeology toy, so I may have a concrete answer on that later in the week.  With the pile of other things I'm trying to find time to test.  So much to do, so little time...

 

 

In general, though, 340-400k sounds quite right.  (Assuming here the upper numbers are for when you get to AoE.)  Elemental can only be pushed so hard, and is very linear with gear.  Other people have cool tricks and really high skillcaps on their single-target dps; ours are in utility and healing instead.

 

Gratz on your Thok kill, and good luck on Siegecrafter!

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I'm not a big fan of UF, and have been running EB, exclusively, the entire tier with some really good results.

 

With PERFECT UF usage, you'll see a good damage increase.  But if you ever slip and spend Unleash Flame on a Flame Shock, or don't spend the majority of the time casting LB/LvB while the debuff is up, EB comes ahead.

 

As someone else mentioned, if you're running EB, you do have to be aware of the Mastery cap.  W/ EB, the Mastery cap is 87.4%, or a little less if you have a PBI.  With my H-PBI, it's 87.34%.

 

Searing Totem is a complete waste of time right now, since those Clearcasting buffs we had a few months ago.  I've dropped it completely from my rotation, and haven't moved up or down in DPS, and still rank moderately well.

 

340-400k is a pretty good zone to be in.  I typically sit around 340-380k ST in my 10m.  You could probably step it up with some good EB usage on several bosses.  I couldn't find a good Malkorok or IJ log to analyze your UF usage, though.  If you can point one out, I might be able to see more, and compare vs my own.

 

BTW: Switch over to WarcraftLogs.  So much easier to analyze logs with it.  I can get things like EB/UF uptime vs cooldown without doing crazy expressions.

Edited by Hybrys
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Thanks for all the solid pointers everyone. Looks like I will be trying out EB next week during farm to see how it does. I always thought EB was better for a more standstill style fight in the sense that I fell in love with the mobility UF gives ele shamans since EB can't be cast while moving. 

 

I do have logs for both malkorok and IJ, though I don't know how valid they will be. On IJ we use the knockback strat, the main reason I parse only in the 40's-50's on that fight, and I don't think we have a malkorok log where I haven't been dead haha (my computer doesn't handle that fight well on 25H :( )

 

Here's a log from siegecrafter on normal (maybe it was flex? I don't remember) so a pretty consistent single target dps parse.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/091ed0cjb6dijhbx/details/6/?s=736&e=904

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You should also clarify which logs you'd like looked at. It looks like you were enhance quite a bit.

 

Another thing after looking at the logs very briefly, you should not being doing better than most classes. If pure dps classes are beating you in single-target they're doing their job. Ele. Shamans are OP cleave machines with great utility.

I know I definitely shouldn't be beating a solid warlock, hunter, or rogue, but sadly I feel most people in my raid group are performing..... sub-par lol.

I'm not a big fan of UF, and have been running EB, exclusively, the entire tier with some really good results.

 

With PERFECT UF usage, you'll see a good damage increase.  But if you ever slip and spend Unleash Flame on a Flame Shock, or don't spend the majority of the time casting LB/LvB while the debuff is up, EB comes ahead.

 

As someone else mentioned, if you're running EB, you do have to be aware of the Mastery cap.  W/ EB, the Mastery cap is 87.4%, or a little less if you have a PBI.  With my H-PBI, it's 87.34%.

 

Searing Totem is a complete waste of time right now, since those Clearcasting buffs we had a few months ago.  I've dropped it completely from my rotation, and haven't moved up or down in DPS, and still rank moderately well.

 

340-400k is a pretty good zone to be in.  I typically sit around 340-380k ST in my 10m.  You could probably step it up with some good EB usage on several bosses.  I couldn't find a good Malkorok or IJ log to analyze your UF usage, though.  If you can point one out, I might be able to see more, and compare vs my own.

 

BTW: Switch over to WarcraftLogs.  So much easier to analyze logs with it.  I can get things like EB/UF uptime vs cooldown without doing crazy expressions.

 

 

So with a heroic warforged purified bindings should I not be using EB? My mastery is over 89%

Edited by Skoomd

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So with a heroic warforged purified bindings should I not be using EB? My mastery is over 89%

Why do you say that?  You just have to tweak your gear to the cap, like any other spec/class.

 

Trade some mastery gems for haste gems, get your mastery as close to ~87.33% as you can, and try it out.  Shouldn't take more than 4 gems/200 gold.

 

As a class, we'll be behind warlocks/hunters/TotT-trading rogues.  Maybe Fury Warriors, and maybe the tanks (depending on the encounter).  Competitive and middle of the pack, with good utility.

Edited by Hybrys

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ive been running UF over EB just for something new to try. one thing ive been doing lately is holding fulms until the UF buff is off and UF is on cd. fulm is so lackluster anyway.

 

searing tot definitely doesnt affect dps, but it doesnt seem like UF and EB are that far off. it's not like either has some huge potential, the dif is gonna be like 5 or maybe 10k.

 

personally i would never use primals. i think theyre terrible for ele. 

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14/14H raider here. Please read this.

http://www.totemspot.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7055

 

Unless you're gearing for a single target fight, you want to go for mastery.That would be Iron Jug/Malk. You NEVER want to reforge static mastery away to accommodate the excess amount from EB. Thats just a flat out dps loss.  UE is better at higher gear levels than any other talent. 

 

The only fight you MAYBE want to take Primal is on Protectors if your group stacks them up 100% of the time and you're not going to unleash anyway. Other than that UE is the way to go. 

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14/14H raider here. Please read this.

http://www.totemspot.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7055

 

Unless you're gearing for a single target fight, you want to go for mastery.That would be Iron Jug/Malk. You NEVER want to reforge static mastery away to accommodate the excess amount from EB. Thats just a flat out dps loss.  UE is better at higher gear levels than any other talent. 

 

The only fight you MAYBE want to take Primal is on Protectors if your group stacks them up 100% of the time and you're not going to unleash anyway. Other than that UE is the way to go. 

This is the mind set that leads to bad DPS.

 

UE is not the be all end all.  Mastery isn't better than Haste in every situation, simply because someone said so.  EB is very close, and if you falter in a SINGLE facet of UE's execution, EB would've come ahead.

 

If you ever:

  • Cast too many Earth Shock/Fulminations while UE's debuff is up.  (I'd put the threshold at ~5.)
  • Spend a SINGLE Unleash Flame on Flame Shock.
  • Miss UEs cooldown by more than 20 seconds collectively during a fight.
  • Let a SINGLE Unleash Flame expire before a LvB.

 

EB is most likely going to be the better choice for you.  And if EB is the better choice, it's logical to reforge to the Mastery w/ EB cap of 87.4%.

 

 

Mastery vs Haste is a bigger issue than simply showing a reforge plot.  Although it does help, it can also show some very odd peaks and valleys, depending on when Haste would get you an extra LvB during Ascendance, and the commonality of Tempus Repit/Trinket procs at the start of the sim.  

 

Sims are also typically perfect at planning and spending procs, or best utilizing UE, which doesn't always play into re-life situations.

 

 

There's a reason I have the R13 parse on Malkorok w/ EB, with far from BiS gear.  Very few people can execute UE, and even when they can, it's not a big gain.

Edited by Hybrys
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  • Miss UEs cooldown by more than 20 seconds collectively during a fight.

 

Can you let EB stay on cd for much more than this? not counting CL time during any given fight.

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Can you let EB stay on cd for much more than this? not counting CL time during any given fight.

Not a whole lot more, but UE has a higher penalty because it gives value to other spells, where as EB has 75% of it's damage contrib built in.

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This is the mind set that leads to bad DPS.

 

UE is not the be all end all.  Mastery isn't better than Haste in every situation, simply because someone said so.  EB is very close, and if you falter in a SINGLE facet of UE's execution, EB would've come ahead.

 

 

Mastery vs Haste is a bigger issue than simply showing a reforge plot.  Although it does help, it can also show some very odd peaks and valleys, depending on when Haste would get you an extra LvB during Ascendance, and the commonality of Tempus Repit/Trinket procs at the start of the sim.  

 

Sims are also typically perfect at planning and spending procs, or best utilizing UE, which doesn't always play into re-life situations.

 

 

There's a reason I have the R13 parse on Malkorok w/ EB, with far from BiS gear.  Very few people can execute UE, and even when they can, it's not a big gain.

 

This is the mindset of the Top ele's in the world. Leeds from Method talked about it during his interview on Final Boss. I guess he doesn't know what he's doing. You know.. world first and all.

 

The reforge plot is a tool and it has its limits. It does tell you if you play well what your max dps is going to be, shouldn't you try to play better, all the time? If you use the reforge plots correctly you're doing really high iterations to flesh out all the super low and high sims. Plus you can toggle the skill at which it does it. Follow the guide. I'm pretty sure Ikestorm from Vigil knows what he is talking about.(he wrote the guide)

 

Grats on your top parse. I really don't mean to sound like a prick but I held the No. 3 for a long time on that fight using EB, but that was during progression when mastery levels weren't nearly as high.

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This is the mindset of the Top ele's in the world. Leeds from Method talked about it during his interview on Final Boss. I guess he doesn't know what he's doing. You know.. world first and all.

 

The reforge plot is a tool and it has its limits. It does tell you if you play well what your max dps is going to be, shouldn't you try to play better, all the time? If you use the reforge plots correctly you're doing really high iterations to flesh out all the super low and high sims. Plus you can toggle the skill at which it does it. Follow the guide. I'm pretty sure Ikestorm from Vigil knows what he is talking about.(he wrote the guide)

 

Grats on your top parse. I really don't mean to sound like a prick but I held the No. 3 for a long time on that fight using EB, but that was during progression when mastery levels weren't nearly as high.

The mindset that leads to bad DPS is that there's always a correct option for the best damage output.  Things are fluid, depending on situation, encounter, playstyle, reaction time, ping length, and more.  For example, Destro Warlocks using KJC doing better than those using AD in high movement.  Pallies using DP over AW for their playstyle differences.

 

Leeds can also play UE properly.  The average IV goer is not the hardcore of the hardcore.  I even said that UE was a slight gain if it was properly used, but that the complication lies in execution.

 

Sims and reforge plots do not show exact in game performance.  They do not show mechanics, movement, or target switching (unless you count their other profiles, which aren't very good.).  These things actually significantly boost the contribution of EB (in target switching or mechanics disallowing attacks), and the contribution of Haste (Haste has better contribution because you'll typically see a higher than usual LB vs LvB breakdown in high movement fights.)

 

I also parse better than Ikestorm (which is sad, since I'm in a 10m), and he wrote a very simplistic guide that doesn't go through the intricacies of Mastery vs Haste, nor even going into the value of Crit.  Throwing around names like they matter a lot is cute, but not a great way to prove your point.

 

Congrats on your high parse as well!  The only reason I mentioned it was because you came into the thread like an authoritative jerk tossing around '14/14h raider here' like no-one else in the thread mattered.  If I was actually in a raid for the first few weeks of SoO, I would've given you a run for your money.  I also think late parses are more worthwhile than early parses, since most high-end guilds privatize logs for the race and few weeks/months afterwards.

Edited by Hybrys

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OK I'm glad you guys are settling things out together. I just want to make it clear that I don't tolerate shit-throwing here, I'll come down hard on people stirring it up. Please be careful with your language (I have no wish for this forum to end up like the WoW forum).

 

There's an interesting tension on show here which has bugged me for ages, actually; the difference between what the top DPS do and what works for everyone else. Now, in terms of this discussion the information is very nuanced because we're comparing talents with different skill caps. That makes for lots of points and counter-points and an interesting discussion. I really do like to see that.

 

I actually had a similar (much less nuanced) discussion a while back with Damien about our general advice in the Ele guide relating to Haste vs. Mastery; should we discuss the details in the guide? His original argument was that we should just state Mastery > Haste because Leeds said so, but I reject that "player X says Y is good so it must be universally good" is a valid argument (fallacy of association, perhaps?). We went in and picked a suitable sim profile which Damien said he expected was the spec and gear level of the target audience, and did one of those reforge plots. It did indeed show that Mastery > Haste regardless for that specific setup. Given that it was "the expected setup", we agreed it was reasonable to just state Mastery > Haste and have done with it.

 

An interesting extension that we had was moving to a slightly different setup and re-doing the reforge plot. We found that Haste > Mastery, but only very slightly and that any deviation from the theoretical optimum would actually be penalized compared to Haste = Mastery. Our discussion was then around whether this was a significant enough result to warrant changing the guide. Actually, the difference between Haste=Mastery, Haste > Mastery, and Mastery > Haste was so small that we understood it wasn't worth complicating the guide for.

 

Now, I understand that we're not talking about the main guide in this thread. What I'd suggest as a strategy for gearing (based on this discussion and what we've seen in this thread so far) is to first pick your talent based upon whether you will be able to execute it and then gear optimally for that.In this case, it might mean Hybrys goes for EB and Leeds goes for UE because they are more/less confident about their ability to execute each rotation on a given fight.

 

That does leave plenty of room to say "if X gear for Y but otherwise gear for Z", and then start looking at higher considerations like the amount of movement in a fight (like Hybrys suggested).

 

Nice discussion.

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I'm really pleased that you did test Mastery vs Haste yourself for the guide.  I also have an aversion to the top players saying 'This is the best.  Done.' because I think it's more worthwhile to know why.

 

Mastery vs Haste and EB vs UE are both contentious issues without an easy solution.  That being said, for all facets of the game, I think it's always going to be better to analyze your play and playstyle to see what works for you.

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