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[Archived] Retribution Paladin 5.4

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Guest Chronos

Loss of 4% haste worth the Retribution 2 piece bonus from double LFR? (15% increased damage from Templar's Verdict). Swapping out two 489's with high haste for LFR gloves/legs. Anyone know any good simulations that I can test this out with?

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Guest Mike

I have a question on Gem Selection. Both here and and other sites have the red gem as a haste Str hybrid and yellow as straight haste. What I don't understand is that if Str is the best stat we have, why isn't it optimized in gem selection?

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I have a question on Gem Selection. Both here and and other sites have the red gem as a haste Str hybrid and yellow as straight haste. What I don't understand is that if Str is the best stat we have, why isn't it optimized in gem selection?

To answer simply: because Strength is not the best stat we have. Yes, it is our primary stat, and yes, point for point, it is our best stat, offering a higher DPS gain than one point in any other stat (save Hit Rating until the 7.5% cap). But gems give twice the amount of stat points for secondary stats than they do for primary stats. For example, a pure Strength gem gives 160 Strength, whereas a pure Haste Rating gem gives 320 Haste Rating. This means that Strength has to not only be better than the best secondary stat, but it has to be at least twice as good to be worth gemming for.

In the case of Retribution Paladins, Strength is not twice as good as Haste Rating, meaning that it is a bigger DPS gain to get pure haste whenever possible (yellow, prismatic), and strength/haste hybrid gems in red sockets.

I hope that clears it up.

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Guest Gogor

As an update, ElitistJerks has just confirmed that with MoP gear levels, you can actually switch to Hammer of Righteous at 2 targets (the same number as where you'd switch to Divine Storm over Templar's Verdict). Seal of Righteousness is still crap, though. Posted Image

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Guest John Davies

Why do you guys not recommend Bold Primordial Ruby for Ret Pallys? Strength is our primary stat and no gem gives higher strength then a Bold Primordial Ruby.

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Guest John Davies

To answer simply: because Strength is not the best stat we have. Yes, it is our primary stat, and yes, point for point, it is our best stat, offering a higher DPS gain than one point in any other stat (save Hit Rating until the 7.5% cap). But gems give twice the amount of stat points for secondary stats than they do for primary stats. For example, a pure Strength gem gives 160 Strength, whereas a pure Haste Rating gem gives 320 Haste Rating. This means that Strength has to not only be better than the best secondary stat, but it has to be at least twice as good to be worth gemming for.

In the case of Retribution Paladins, Strength is not twice as good as Haste Rating, meaning that it is a bigger DPS gain to get pure haste whenever possible (yellow, prismatic), and strength/haste hybrid gems in red sockets.

I hope that clears it up.

ok thanks I wish I had seen this before I posted my question

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I would suggest holy avenger is best currently than other 2 talents .. it boosts ur dps by far.. it gives flat 30% dmg boost to all abilites which generate holy power , and in 2min cd 18sec up time. sanctified wrath only makes hammer of wrath cd reduce to 3secs, and AW duration to 35secs ,AW has 3min cd which is long compared to holy avenger + with out the sanct talent using AW makes HOW avalaible with 6secs(-%haste). with stacking both AW and HA the dmg boost for all abilties which generates holy power is increase by 50% + free TWs every time with 20% more dmg for the peroid of 18secs-20secs , i suggest that sanctified wrath might come up with t14 4set bonus , but 5.1 patch they nerfing that too ,and making holyavenger powerfull by making it stack with AW every 2mins ..

It just a suggestion since many ppl see your guides and go accordingly i dont want ppl to go on less dps ..especially ret pallys :P

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@Manoj

Do you have anything other than anecdotal evidence/conjecture to back the claim? Afaik, the sim results and current theory for ret support Sanctified Wrath as being slightly ahead of HA and DP, which is why their guide indicates as much.

I think the general thrust of your comment was intended as helpful rather than critical, but I'd suggest that when it comes to matters of comparing DPS in any context, you need to bring some supporting data to the table if you plan to offer an alternate viewpoint. I have no doubt that when they sat down to write the guide, the authors here carefully considered all the points (and more, probably) you make above, then put them to the test (either themselves or via another trusted stats source, e.g. Elitist Jerks) and posted recommendations based on their findings.

By all means question what you read, but do your due diligence before advancing a contradictory argument and making recommendations/suggestions based thereon.

I'm sorry if this post comes across as preachy or critical, I am having a seriously crap day at work and I might be venting a touch :(

-Auracle

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@Manoj

Do you have anything other than anecdotal evidence/conjecture to back the claim? Afaik, the sim results and current theory for ret support Sanctified Wrath as being slightly ahead of HA and DP, which is why their guide indicates as much.

I think the general thrust of your comment was intended as helpful rather than critical, but I'd suggest that when it comes to matters of comparing DPS in any context, you need to bring some supporting data to the table if you plan to offer an alternate viewpoint. I have no doubt that when they sat down to write the guide, the authors here carefully considered all the points (and more, probably) you make above, then put them to the test (either themselves or via another trusted stats source, e.g. Elitist Jerks) and posted recommendations based on their findings.

By all means question what you read, but do your due diligence before advancing a contradictory argument and making recommendations/suggestions based thereon.

I'm sorry if this post comes across as preachy or critical, I am having a seriously crap day at work and I might be venting a touch Posted Image

-Auracle

Haha dont take it too much brother it was a suggestion only :P... i dint not say it was bad in guide it good infact best with t14 set bonus , i dont follow any guide for ret paladin , but without t14 set bonus that talent lacks the power that holy avenger gives its a suggestion ppl can take it or can leave it and follow normal guide no issues what so ever :)... its my personal suggestion thats all .

apart from dps who dont want to have ashbringer for 18secs ? :P..

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Guest Axonite

Hi,

in "Retribution Paladin DPS Statistics Priority and Reforging (WoW MoP 5.1)", in first section, is it intended to stack expertise do 7.5 HIT cap or it is just a typo ? Shouldn't it be "stack expertise to 7.5% expertise cap" ?

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@Manoj

Do you have anything other than anecdotal evidence/conjecture to back the claim? Afaik, the sim results and current theory for ret support Sanctified Wrath as being slightly ahead of HA and DP, which is why their guide indicates as much.

I think the general thrust of your comment was intended as helpful rather than critical, but I'd suggest that when it comes to matters of comparing DPS in any context, you need to bring some supporting data to the table if you plan to offer an alternate viewpoint. I have no doubt that when they sat down to write the guide, the authors here carefully considered all the points (and more, probably) you make above, then put them to the test (either themselves or via another trusted stats source, e.g. Elitist Jerks) and posted recommendations based on their findings.

By all means question what you read, but do your due diligence before advancing a contradictory argument and making recommendations/suggestions based thereon.

I'm sorry if this post comes across as preachy or critical, I am having a seriously crap day at work and I might be venting a touch Posted Image

-Auracle

Thank you :)

We don't take offense at people who suggest that things in our guides are wrong (we're only really rarely bothered by them at all, and the way in which the comments have to be done for that to happen has to be very extreme).

You are right, we do take a lot of things into account when writing the guides. We do a lot of research, but the fact remains that we can still be wrong. We've corrected and improved our class guides massively over the past months through a lot of brilliant user feedback.

With regards to talents, things stopped being cut and dry in Mists of Pandaria. A lot of people love one talent and hate another, so they try to advocate their favourite talent being better, and sometimes get offended when we don't share their opinion. As I said, though, it's not so cut and dry anymore. Many of the performance-enhancing talents are very well balanced, and it's just feasible (or useful for the reader) for us to just come out and say that one is better than other. We try to provide players with enough information or ideas so that they can make their own decisions.

Haha dont take it too much brother it was a suggestion only Posted Image... i dint not say it was bad in guide it good infact best with t14 set bonus , i dont follow any guide for ret paladin , but without t14 set bonus that talent lacks the power that holy avenger gives its a suggestion ppl can take it or can leave it and follow normal guide no issues what so ever Posted Image... its my personal suggestion thats all .

apart from dps who dont want to have ashbringer for 18secs ? Posted Image..

In the case of Sanctified Wrath, it's just really good. With 4-part Tier 14, it is simming as the best choice in any gear level, by quite a margin. I'll try to sim it without 4-part, where its value will surely drop somewhat, but I'd be surprised to find it trailing too far behind the other two (if behind at all). Thanks for the heads up :)

Hi,

in "Retribution Paladin DPS Statistics Priority and Reforging (WoW MoP 5.1)", in first section, is it intended to stack expertise do 7.5 HIT cap or it is just a typo ? Shouldn't it be "stack expertise to 7.5% expertise cap" ?

That is a typo indeed, and it's being fixed now. Thank you!

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Guest The;s

Why is the Crit enchant on cloaks recommended?

Wouldn't Hit be a better option, so you can reforge some Hit on your gear to Haste? (Unless of course you are well over Hit cap, and are unable to reforge it all away.)

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Based on a cursory review of current weights, you are right to ask the question.

Unless I am missing something, it should likely be revised to:

Accuracy (Unless hit capped by gear)

Superior Critical Strike (If after a rull reforge you are still hit capped)

Swordguard Embroidery III (If tailor)

Based on the following conversions and relative stat weights @ EJ: http://elitistjerks.com/f76/t130889-ret_5_0_4_mop_retribution_concordance_retcon_panda_ing_dps_meters/

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Guest sscorpion

Hi Mates,

1 question...when u guys say gemming haste in T14 raid gear, its for normal gear or RF gear its same?

Thank youPosted Image

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Hey Scorp,

I believe what you're referencing was in fact intended as T14 normal, i.e. an indicative overall gear level. However, with respect to gemming and reforging optimally, you'll want to (if able) run your own sims to determine what gem type is best suited to your particular gearset.

You can use simcraft, askmrrobot, or you can get the spreadsheet linked by the author of the EJ thread, the link to which is just above in this thread.

If that's too much work, you can reasonably safely just follow the recommendations of the guide here without delving too deeply and still be assured of a good result DPS-wise.

-Auracle

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Guest Samiel

Question regarding the Execution Sentence vs Holy Prism, by my math, Execution Sentence, doesn't come ahead on total single target damage in a 1 minute period, until somewhere around 22500 Spellpower, I realize simcraft and pure math makes this a better single target spell, at that point, but when does a Ret Paladin hit 22500 Spellpower?

Even before that, if you take into account, that in that 1 minute period, Holy Prism gets three chances to crit, and Execution Sentence 10, for execution sentence to come out ahead, you would need 30% crit and it would still be behind, until atleast 18,000 Spellpower. So, I'm confused, as to why you're stating that Execution Sentence is a better spell for single target DPS.

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Guest saturno

Samiel, I was wondering the same thing. I've been debating between those two a lot lately. The thing I'd consider is that you have to include Execution Sentence in your spell rotation twice as often which triggers a global cooldown that you could be spending that time doing something else.

I tend to think that the AOE aspect of Holy Prism (plus some bonus healing) make it a far better choice for versatility since the single-target DPS aspect appears questionable.

Definitely like to hear some more experienced player feedback on this one.

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21440 spell power to be more precise on the napkin math and crit rating effects both the exact same. A couple of things to note; you lose 2 more global cooldowns (kind of a big deal) using Holy Prism vs Execution Sentence per minute and it's easier to stack Avenging Wrath and other cooldowns with Execution Sentence. Those are the main reasons that I know of but I would love to see some sims if anyone cares to run them.

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Guest Fiodhness

i've noticed through aoe fights that due to divine storm only doing 100% weapon damage to each target, it isn't beneficial to maximize damage output by using Divine Storm unless there are 3 or more targets. Templar's verdict, at 275% weapon damage, does more damage to 1 target than Divine storm to 2. just a possible adjustment if one wants to get really nitpicky about it

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It has been commonly accepted that Divine Storm pulls ahead of Templar's Verdict at 2 targets due to the fact that DS has no armour mitigation. If you are seeing differing results could you post those numbers by chance?

Thanks,

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Guest Elysdone

I would think that now 5.2 has AW as a 2min CD for ret, that HA/AW macro would be better (and lots more fun) than SA. Firstly, the CD's now line up, like they did if you had the old 4p T14 bonus, second, while there are fewer ability CDs you can throw at the boss (ie, HoW isn't up every other GCD), everything makes 3 Holy Power, which means that the next GCD (if you Inq right before blowing your HA/AW macro) will be spent on TV, which has no CD.

The T15 4p is also supporting HA over SA, as a 100% holy TV would hit really really HARD, and be affected by the 2p 6% debuff (Exo, TV, CS proc, holy TV, HoW, TV, CS proc, holy TV).

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Hooray for Tier 3 talent Selfless Healer recommendation. I have been using every incarnation of this since Cata and it has been a raid saver on innumerable occasions.

I believe the Multiple target rotation is currently incorrect. I believe it should be:

Exemplar (EJ forums) originally posted this and I have verified this for myself on live.

And thanks for the guide updates!

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