[Archived] Retribution Paladin 5.4

[Guest Duurum]

Yeah, I've noticed a significant damage drop. Though I'm noticing ret is more like it was in Wrath now, but you don't notice it until T16 4 set.

Same, we took a massive hit from 5.3 to 5.4. Not necessarily complaining, but just confirming it on my end too.

[Guest jacea]

rets suck this time around. off their cds they are the worst class for damage out there. don't bother with them. its embarrassing when your dps drops below 80k in a raid and there is nothing you can do but wait for cds to come back. just make a mage or a lock

[Astherion 4]

rets suck this time around. off their cds they are the worst class for damage out there. don't bother with them. its embarrassing when your dps drops below 80k in a raid and there is nothing you can do but wait for cds to come back. just make a mage or a lock

They are definitely not the worst class for dps. They have a simple rotation, however with a lot of haste, it's pretty difficult to perform the rotation correctly. If you can learn to do it correctly, you won't suck in dps. When I fail my single target rotation, I am still 200k dps in hc raids (I should be around 350k, ideally). It's also needed to change talents and glyphs before every fight.

[Fouton 266]

Ret's have a very small number of spells compared to others but their proc range is so hard to estimate, they're definitely not dull. And not making a ret paladin because they 'suck right now' would be a horrible idea based on the fact that WoD is coming in 4-5 months. Things will change when the pre-expansion patch hits.

 

As everyone will always say, if played correctly you will do enough DPS to survive in a raid. If you want to play a ret paladin because they're fun, that's what you should play. If you only care about a number on a meter that doesn't show anything in detail about how good the player is, sure play a lock.

 

Paladins bring more than DPS to the table. They bring many raid CDs, healing, stuns, interrupts, and aoe burst that is always needed for certain things. I would agree they could use an additional short CD spell so they don't have as many empty GCDs, but trashing them from their numbers alone is silly.

 

I know someone who's played the worst spec of their class and top the meter, even when that worst spec is the worst among all classes. I've seen people change classes and do better than their main on a theoretically worse character just because they enjoy it more. Telling people to play x class because it does more damage is just plain wrong. A raid of mages and locks will do just as well as a raid of a diverse class/spec when played by equally skilled people.

[Guest Kemoosify]

Is the BiS list EVER going to be updated? How far into 5.4 are we now?

[Guest Neari]

Rotation & optimization is outdated!

 

 

[Vlad 411]

Rotation & optimization is outdated!

I'd like to correct that, if it's really the case, but could you please be a bit more explicit?

 

Thank you!

[Guest Orion]

The T16 4pc proc makes DP a much higher DPS increase than the other two talent choices.  But since a BiS list hasn't been produced for this entire tier, I doubt any here have ran the sims to confirm.  A HoPo spender procs even more HoPo spenders, and the 4pc proc rates (in sims and as far as I can tell for at least my logs) higher than a standard TV.  This needs to be changed on the guide to reflect that.  Also, given enough  Haste, a DS will have priority over Judge and CS because of the constant procs and HoPo spender damage, and the very real and often common chance you stay at a constant 5 HoPo due to they way the 4pc DS proc works with DP.  Personally I've gone entire lengths of Inquisition before having to spend any HoPo (if Inquisition didn't proc another 3 free HoPo spender that is), and it's very common to see very lengthy chains that easily surpass any other choice on that talent tier.  

 

In short, yes, both the rotation guide and the talent choice guide need to be changed.  

[OrionQuest 0]

No word back in weeks, this being tested?  Random procs not testing well?  This needs to be changed, Divine Purpose is indeed the best talent choice with 4pc T16.  Just because the proc is random, does not make it the worst choice, simulations cannot predict the chances of random procs.  With the cloak proc and DS spam and Divine Purpose, this is the best choice in talents, and changes the way we use our priority rotation.  Please tell me this is being accounted for.  Because as we stand on the guide, it's wrong, very wrong, the people who go by this priority and talent choice are missing out on millions of damage. 

 

I'm not writing checks that my character can't cash, I can provide logs.  And again, no BiS list this entire tier, no changes to the rotation guide to reflect talent choice and tier set gains aside from "Watching for a proc".  No, this is not acceptable, sorry.  The T16 4pc proc changes our entire priority.  This needs to be changed to reflect our priority.  If the main contributor doesn't main a Retribution Paladin, you need to find one that does, because the updates on this site for this spec is absurd.

Edited March 21, 2014 by OrionQuest

[Fouton 266]

You should take some conversations to the paladin forums where the rets who visit the site look. Sadly I find it hard to notice posts in this guide because it's topic is meshed with every other class guide, but the paladin one is checked daily.

As the only paladin moderator I do not main ret or even offspec ret, however the discussion of DP vs SW is covered in the paladin forums by several heroic raiding paladins who confirm DP is better for AoE fights. As for the rotation change I have never even heard of the priority change to put DS > Judgment or CS but I doubt that it's worth it. DP doesn't proc THAT often for me in other specs so I can't imagine it mixing with a DS proc to make it better than a HoPo generator, because that would assume DS has over 33% chance to proc a free HoPo move.

I'm currently on my iPod so I can't write a larger and more detailed discussion, but I can contact anafielle, Auriel, and have them look into this. You can also download SimulationCraft and run sims for yourself.

[Guest Blabla]

I have a simple Question that i couldn't really find being answered anywhere so i'm asking you.

I there any haste cap on the Ret Pala or should you just stack haste wherever possible becau i'm now at around 45% Haste and i'm not sure if i should stack anymore Haste. So could you maybe write a suggestion if i'm still going the right way by stacking haste.

[Damien 1,514]

I have a simple Question that i couldn't really find being answered anywhere so i'm asking you.

I there any haste cap on the Ret Pala or should you just stack haste wherever possible becau i'm now at around 45% Haste and i'm not sure if i should stack anymore Haste. So could you maybe write a suggestion if i'm still going the right way by stacking haste.

It would be better to ask in the Paladin subforum.

[OrionQuest 0]

I will indeed refer to the forums from now.  But, Divine Purpose is indeed everything mentioned.  HoPo generators count for nothing when you have 2 consecutive (and not stacked, 2 separate rolls, which is actually better for this purpose) chances that, even at a continuous 5 HoPo, you stay that way for very long chains.  Browse EJ if you'd like, or refer to my logs.  I am indeed also a Heroic completed Ret Paladin, Divine Storm with 4pc T16 is indeed valued over HoPo builders because there's the very real and very common/often chance you stay at a constant 5 HoPo for extended periods of time.  I'm a stalwart believer that random procs aren't what's best for a spec or build, but after switching to Divine Purpose, I'm no longer even considering other choices in either rotation or talent choice.  Even single target, thanks to double procs happening so often, it's not really much of a choice any longer.  Even the often banned MMO-C Paladin (who mains Ret) confers with DP as the only choice once you get t he 4pc set, it's actually better than getting our 2 main trinkets, which sadly, isn't even mentioned here for gear aside from a few quick notes.  

 

Thek himself has mentioned the 4pc on several occasions, and I doubt any here have the math prowess to best him in that regard. He's the creator of the sims we all use, and a mathematical genius in his own right.  

[Fouton 266]

Could you source these Theck posts? I'm finding no recent threads (5.4) of him talking about ret to begin with, and I'm also seeing many threads saying SW > DP on all single target, especially with Galakras's trinket.

 

I quote the Elitist Jerks guide you mention:

 

If you're using Divine Purpose (why are you using Divine Purpose?!?!?), just stick with the ordinary priority during AW.

http://forums.elitistjerks.com/page/articles.html/_/world-of-warcraft/paladin/ret-54-mop-retribution-concordance-retcon-r85

 

I see no mention at all on EJ that shows DP is the clear winner, and infact see more posts showing SW is just far superior on all single target fights.

 

In the ret forums we've had discussions where Auriel suggests DP over SW for fights such as Galakras and Spoils, and its been generally agreed that most AoE DP wins, however I don't see any evidence to support a different claim against DP.

 

Opening SimC and importing their T16H Ret paladin, it loads in SW talent build. I can't see a more clear understanding that SW is the single target winner/OOR fights, and DP wins AoE.

 

You also have not linked any logs to look at, so I can't see any data. Either way, I have direct contact to Theck, and will ask him to go into detail on this topic.

[OrionQuest 0]

I'll stick to what was asked of me and provide links in the Ret forums, I'm not trying to create drama.  I can't mention much without my logs, and I'm not trying to ask we all the sudden change what we've known for face value.  Just so happens we raid tonight, so it's a good chance to provide fresh data.  I'll also link Thek's blog on set values.  As for his sims, they can't predict random procs, they have a ton of trouble giving value already to the BiS trinks we use currently. And he's already said as much to that topic.  Thok's trink alone for Prot should attest to that.  Again, not trying to be dramatic, just would rather we had detailed info on the guide rather than having to sift through pages of forums for the correct answers as far as gearing and rotation, otherwise Veins serves no purpose. 

[Oreoxd 165]

T16 4pc only pulls DP ahead assuming you lack an Eye of Galakras, with the Eye and AW's reduced CD, SW pulls much further ahead. So to answer your question, you are partly right, DP is better with T16 4pc, but not with an Eye of Galakras, and ESPECIALLY not with a heroic one. If you're using DP with that trinket, then it's wasting the trinket's full potential.

 

Edit: In the future though it is a lot easier to get answers on the Paladin Forum, as I look there every day for ret questions (and am very sad when I see none) as do many others.

 

 

I have a simple Question that i couldn't really find being answered anywhere so i'm asking you.

I there any haste cap on the Ret Pala or should you just stack haste wherever possible becau i'm now at around 45% Haste and i'm not sure if i should stack anymore Haste. So could you maybe write a suggestion if i'm still going the right way by stacking haste.

 

 To answer this question, I personally choose haste@40% then mastery to haste@50% then mastery, mainly I feel mastery provides more of a dps boost on more SoO fights, if I had the option I would continuously be changing my gemming and reforges to go back and forth between mastery and crit (because of thok's tail tip making crit better at that point) but 40% haste is minimum cap after that it's personal pref.

Edited March 22, 2014 by Auriel

[Fouton 266]

Thanks Auriel :) I'll look into getting some version of this moved into the guide, or a trinkets and CDs post stickies in the paladin forums.

[Fouton 266]

Also, as to clarify to an earlier post:

 

As most people gear up, they tend to work with what they have, need to constantly adapt their gear and reforge to hit breakpoints, making it very difficult to get everything they want.

 

With this difficulty, it causes 95% (my estimate) of raiders to finish a tier without the perfect item set they wanted. This usually means that they always have to recalculate what items are best for them at the current time. Although the Best-in-Slot feature has been discontinued in the guides, the tab remains along with useful tips relating to trinkets and tier bonuses. Trinkets and Tier Bonuses tend to make the largest impacts on your DPS, so you can use these functions to determine what you are looking for in those important slots. You can also find more detailed explanations of these trinkets and bonuses and how they alter your play in the Paladin Forums.

[Daltek 4]

Also keep in mind that Ret Paladin damage is very dependent on weapon damage. The higher ilvl the weapon is the better. If you've got a Heroic Warforged Gar'Tok and a normal Britomart's, the Heroic Warforged Gar'Tok is going to be better even though the itemization on the Britomart's is much better. Weapon damage scaling is a bigger dps increase than secondary stats are. Shortly after weapon damage being the biggest dps increase, trinkets are next. Thok's and Evil Eye are MASSIVE dps increases, and then the 4 piece comes in after both of those. Even the Flex version of Thok's Tail Tip is a massive upgrade to your dps.

[SeanBurton3 0]

with regards to minor glyphs, I think the one that gives you slow fall when using avenging wrath deserves a mention.

 

Though it is highly situational there are alot of boss attacks or mechanics that throw you up in the air to deal damage

[Fouton 266]

I do love that one, however there's some situations it'll leave you floating in the air out of boss range for a bit of time. I'd personally stick with it for outside of raid stuff. Falling Damage rarely will kill someone, and if it will kill you, using HoP and a cancelaura macro to go with it would be far better.

[AMonkeyCourier 2]

The opening paragraphs should really be updated to reflect how well rets are currently doing at sustained AOE.