[Archived] Frost Death Knight 5.4

[Guest Jamalgren]

I was just wondering if you could explain why Frost Presence is preferred for 2H Frost. I've been curious the past few weeks why every where is so conclusive that Frost is better over Unholy. I still use Frost Presence, and I haven't tested Unholy, but it just seems to me that the increased attack speed and rune regeneration would be pretty nice for 2H Frost. We don't have to get technical here, I was just hoping for a brief explanation. Thanks.

[Vlad 411]

That actually makes more sense to me now. Took me a minute to go back and re-read the descriptions. Thank you very much.

My pleasure.

I was just wondering if you could explain why Frost Presence is preferred for 2H Frost. I've been curious the past few weeks why every where is so conclusive that Frost is better over Unholy. I still use Frost Presence, and I haven't tested Unholy, but it just seems to me that the increased attack speed and rune regeneration would be pretty nice for 2H Frost. We don't have to get technical here, I was just hoping for a brief explanation. Thanks.

I'm not a theorycrafter, and I'm painfully (and yet ever so deliciously) bad at maths, so I can't give you a technical explanation without quoting someone else, but what I can tell you is that "it just is". To expand on that further, this is what in my opinion is the reason Frost Presence is better, or at least contributes greatly to it being better. As 2H Frost, the bulk of your damage comes from getting your Obliterates off. The more Obliterates you can get off, the better. The way to get those Obliterates is to proc Runic Empowerment and refresh the runes, and the way to proc Runic Empowerment is to use Frost Strike. Frost Presence lowers the cost of Frost Strike by 15 runic power, and also increases your runic power generation, resulting in considerably more Frost Strikes, and therefore considerably more Obliterates.

For Frost DW, I assume the same applies since there, it's just that Frost Strike itself is important instead of Obliterate indirectly.

Anyway, if you've ever tried to DPS as Frost in Unholy Presence (which I have done many a time after switching to Unholy for the runspeed while questing and such), you'll notice that your DPS plummets and you end up RP starved with nothing to proc Obliterate.

[Guest Uurd]

We are currently past the second raid realease in MoP, and yet the gemming on Mr. Robot states haste gems whenever a free gem slot is open as oppossed to strength gems all around unless the socket bonus was worth it. Is this an inconsistancey still in Mr.Robot, or a new stat priority where haste gives more dps and strength for two-handers?

[Vlad 411]

We are currently past the second raid realease in MoP, and yet the gemming on Mr. Robot states haste gems whenever a free gem slot is open as oppossed to strength gems all around unless the socket bonus was worth it. Is this an inconsistancey still in Mr.Robot, or a new stat priority where haste gives more dps and strength for two-handers?

Actually, this one is our bad. The correct way to gem is to prioritise haste whenever you can, this means pure haste in yellow/prismatic, str/haste in red, and haste/hit in blue (talking about 2H here). We're updating our gems/enchants page to reflect this reality - not sure why it isn't doing so at the moment :P

[Guest ExileGildarts]

Some of the recent stuff according to noxxic.com now say that DW frost is better than 2H, is this true? If so can you give a more detailed explanation of the DW rotaion?

[Talabas 3]

Actually, this one is our bad. The correct way to gem is to prioritise haste whenever you can, this means pure haste in yellow/prismatic, str/haste in red, and haste/hit in blue (talking about 2H here). We're updating our gems/enchants page to reflect this reality - not sure why it isn't doing so at the moment

Firstly, a big congratulations and thanks on a great Frost DK guide. Icy Veins is rapidly becoming the number 1 source for complete and accurate guides.

Having said that, I do have to disagree with the update to the Frost 2H gemming guide. For the vast majority of Frost 2H DKs, gemming for strength over haste will still result in a higher DPS.

AskMrRobot uses the stat values from the Elitist Jerks site which apply to a DK fully kitted out in Best-in-Slot gear (that site has even been updated with a warning about blindly using those stats). With that level of gear (ilvl 509), one point of haste is worth more than half a point of strength so, given that you get double the haste on a gem compared to strength, it makes sense to aim to gem haste over strength, as detailed in your updated guide.

However, most Death Knights are going to be nowhere near this kind of gear level. In my particular case, my DK has an average ilvl in the mid-480s and a point of haste is worth less than half a point of strength according to simulation (which is proving to be pretty accurate to real-life). That means that I and the majority of your readers will want to use the gemming strategy previously featured within your guide for 2H Frost.

[Guest Bloodgaze]

Something I noticed is (I assume) the percentages for hit and haste are slightly off from their rating values. Both in game and on my armor character I have 7.50% and 7.51% Hit/Exp, but AskMrRobot is showing me as having 7.46%/7.47% respectively, which in turn wants me to reforge and overshoot with the optimization.

[Vlad 411]

Firstly, a big congratulations and thanks on a great Frost DK guide. Icy Veins is rapidly becoming the number 1 source for complete and accurate guides.

Having said that, I do have to disagree with the update to the Frost 2H gemming guide. For the vast majority of Frost 2H DKs, gemming for strength over haste will still result in a higher DPS.

AskMrRobot uses the stat values from the Elitist Jerks site which apply to a DK fully kitted out in Best-in-Slot gear (that site has even been updated with a warning about blindly using those stats). With that level of gear (ilvl 509), one point of haste is worth more than half a point of strength so, given that you get double the haste on a gem compared to strength, it makes sense to aim to gem haste over strength, as detailed in your updated guide.

However, most Death Knights are going to be nowhere near this kind of gear level. In my particular case, my DK has an average ilvl in the mid-480s and a point of haste is worth less than half a point of strength according to simulation (which is proving to be pretty accurate to real-life). That means that I and the majority of your readers will want to use the gemming strategy previously featured within your guide for 2H Frost.

Thank you for your compliment.

I feel I need to correct you on something. Ask Mr Robot does not use the stat values from Elitist Jerks, unless I am woefully misinformed (and I'll make sure to double check this). I'm quite sure that for Frost Death Knights (as for most/all else) they run their own calculations on a per-character basis.

In the case of my Death Knight, at item level 490, Strength is worth twice as much as Haste (in truth, Strength is worth a tiny, tiny bit more than double).

I'll do some more investigative work into it.

[Talabas 3]

Thank you for your compliment.

I feel I need to correct you on something. Ask Mr Robot does not use the stat values from Elitist Jerks, unless I am woefully misinformed (and I'll make sure to double check this). I'm quite sure that for Frost Death Knights (as for most/all else) they run their own calculations on a per-character basis.

In the case of my Death Knight, at item level 490, Strength is worth twice as much as Haste (in truth, Strength is worth a tiny, tiny bit more than double).

I'll do some more investigative work into it.

Calculating any reasonably accurate stats for a character takes 10 minutes or so on decent PC hardware with Simulationcraft and although the servers that AskMrRobot uses may be more powerful than my trusty PC, they have to deal with many more requests at the same time. There's no way they can calculate stat weighting for an individual character within a few seconds.

AskMrRobot claims that for my character one point of haste is worth more than half a point of strength and alters its gemming strategy based on those results.

A direct run of Simulationcraft for my character shows that for a tank 'n' spank boss, haste is 0.46 times the value of strength so AskMrRobot is way out. A run of Simulationcraft with a simulated boss that requires significant movement reduces haste to below 0.2 of the value of strength so gemming haste over strength would be a significant loss of DPS.

I should point out that I don't think that there's anything wrong with AskMrRobot providing correct stats are obtained from Simulationcraft and entered into AMR.

Happy to hear any contradictory opinions of course :)

Edited November 30, 2012 by Talabas

[Hurtzdontit 0]

Just for simple information the CLCDk hasn't been updated and not sure if it will be updated, I have tried to use it for some time now and it causes a serious LUA error for the interface, so if by chance there is another addon for rotations it would be greatly appreciated.

[Vlad 411]

Just for simple information the CLCDk hasn't been updated and not sure if it will be updated, I have tried to use it for some time now and it causes a serious LUA error for the interface, so if by chance there is another addon for rotations it would be greatly appreciated.

Ok, thanks. I guess I'll remove it from the guide, then. Doesn't seem to have been updated in months. I don't actually think there's a need for an alternative, anyway :P

[Hurtzdontit 0]

I would like to ask or looking for some information about Mr. Robot. I have noticed that since MoP has come out and I am not completely fimilar with the sims, but with that said we started using haste and hit gems at first. Then there was a change to use str and hit and now its back to using the haste and hit. Where I am going with this is has Mr. Robot been updated in the last month or so?

I am just looking to stay informed to what the changes are so I can stay on top of knowing my class and to run him properly.

Thank you for the advise and the excellent guide.

[Vlad 411]

I would like to ask or looking for some information about Mr. Robot. I have noticed that since MoP has come out and I am not completely fimilar with the sims, but with that said we started using haste and hit gems at first. Then there was a change to use str and hit and now its back to using the haste and hit. Where I am going with this is has Mr. Robot been updated in the last month or so?

I am just looking to stay informed to what the changes are so I can stay on top of knowing my class and to run him properly.

Thank you for the advise and the excellent guide.

Hey there! Thank you for your compliments! There was a "mix up", I would say, regarding Strength versus Haste. The short version is that Haste is better than Strength in terms of gemming (since 1 point of Haste Rating is worth more than 50% of a point of Strength, and gems offer twice as much in secondary stats as they do in primary ones), but due to a bug in the most popular simulation tool, some people (including us and Ask Mr. Robot) thought, until the bug was found, that Strength was indeed better. So they changed it to Strength for a few days based on this, but then reverted to Haste.

You can read the "long version" in this thread, which was going on as the situation was developing.

[Guest hyperpig]

i do find that bloodtap works much better for 2h frost, and runic empowermant is a DW talent.

as bloodtap allows you to control your Obliterates. much better when you need a deathrune.

and in frost presence, a full bar of runic power will generate 10 charges, which is 2 deathrune in hand.

compare this talent to runic empowerment, 20 frost strike averagely provide you 9 death rune, and in the case of bloodtap, 20 frost strike will provide you 8 death rune, only 1 difference, but you could use this on the proc of killing machine which you wont waste it when you using 2H. thus, i think bloodtap will be a must talent for 2h Frostys.

[Vlad 411]

i do find that bloodtap works much better for 2h frost, and runic empowermant is a DW talent.

as bloodtap allows you to control your Obliterates. much better when you need a deathrune.

and in frost presence, a full bar of runic power will generate 10 charges, which is 2 deathrune in hand.

compare this talent to runic empowerment, 20 frost strike averagely provide you 9 death rune, and in the case of bloodtap, 20 frost strike will provide you 8 death rune, only 1 difference, but you could use this on the proc of killing machine which you wont waste it when you using 2H. thus, i think bloodtap will be a must talent for 2h Frostys.

I admit that I was skeptical about your claim at first.

I ran some simulations, and it turns out that you are actually right. In heroic gear levels, Blood Tap will provide a 0.2% DPS increase over Runic Empowerment (about 200 DPS), while in normal gear levels, Blood Tap provides a 0.07% DPS increase over Runic Empowerment (60 DPS).

Now, this is according to the latest version of Simulationcraft. I wouldn't agree with your statements that Blood Tap works "much" better, or that it is a "must", but the guide certainly needs to be revised to include that both talents are entirely viable.

Do you just macro Blood Tap to Frost Strike, or what?

Also, I'm not sure that Simulationcraft properly accounts for the possibility of avoiding wasting KM procs (though this probably requires that you macro BT to something other than FS), in which case Blood Tap could actually provide more DPS.

Thank you! I'll look into it.

[Amicitia 8]

Hmm, Vlad wonder where you heard that Blood Tap plus DW was a higher dps, hmmm .... (lol) Anyway, I was using BT as my talent but for my part managing another "proc" in addition to what we already have was probably lowering my potential dps, letting BT stay at 12 without using it, or FS with BT at 11, etc... I might go back to it later when I have seen all of the normal/heroic fights and can afford to shift my attention elsewhere.

I was actually posting this in response to another comment above about CLC DK, I didn't see anything posted in reply. I've been having horrible blue screen memory crashes, about 1x per week, and screen lockups. I wrote these off to "other" issues, but I'm going to drop this addon on my next login to see if it has been the source. I was wanting to know if there is anything else that so easily displays my diseases with a timer. I don't really need the rotation suggestion but the occasional visual that my PoF has come off cooldown or I'm down on RP and need to HoW were nice. Someone had mentioned Bitten's Spell Flash DK. Is that working similar to CLC, or is there something else that doesn't require a tutor, two hours of my play time and several shots and beers to get setup???

[Guest Pathogenesis]

DW is currently ahead of 2H (as seen in many sims, guides and logs), you should probably update this.

[Vlad 411]

Hmm, Vlad wonder where you heard that Blood Tap plus DW was a higher dps, hmmm .... (lol) Anyway, I was using BT as my talent but for my part managing another "proc" in addition to what we already have was probably lowering my potential dps, letting BT stay at 12 without using it, or FS with BT at 11, etc... I might go back to it later when I have seen all of the normal/heroic fights and can afford to shift my attention elsewhere.

I was actually posting this in response to another comment above about CLC DK, I didn't see anything posted in reply. I've been having horrible blue screen memory crashes, about 1x per week, and screen lockups. I wrote these off to "other" issues, but I'm going to drop this addon on my next login to see if it has been the source. I was wanting to know if there is anything else that so easily displays my diseases with a timer. I don't really need the rotation suggestion but the occasional visual that my PoF has come off cooldown or I'm down on RP and need to HoW were nice. Someone had mentioned Bitten's Spell Flash DK. Is that working similar to CLC, or is there something else that doesn't require a tutor, two hours of my play time and several shots and beers to get setup???

Weak Auras and ElvUI's build-in class timers work well for displaying disease timers.

[Guest Whytte Dragun]

I notice that in the glyphs section, you say that the only Minor Glyph that could have any effect on play style is Tranquil Grip. Wouldn't the Glyph of Army of the Dead be useful for the saem reason? You can use Army without having to worry about the tank losing agro.

[Fatalfury 0]

So it might have over looked a previous post on this. But why is Mr. Robot telling me to gem straight haste instead of strength. I have a chest and legs that have a socket bonus of strength and haste. So i gemmed the +hit/str and +haste/str to get the +strength socket bonus, but mr. robot says to just gem straight +320 haste. Any info would be much appreciated.

[Guest Pathogenesis]

So it might have over looked a previous post on this. But why is Mr. Robot telling me to gem straight haste instead of strength. I have a chest and legs that have a socket bonus of strength and haste. So i gemmed the +hit/str and +haste/str to get the +strength socket bonus, but mr. robot says to just gem straight +320 haste. Any info would be much appreciated.

It all depends on your stat weights. As the saying goes, the tool is only as good as the person using it. If YOU aren't putting in your own stat weights (Simcraft can help you with this) it will have to use the default ones it has, which put Haste above Strength, meaning it will make you gem Haste.

[Vlad 411]

I notice that in the glyphs section, you say that the only Minor Glyph that could have any effect on play style is Tranquil Grip. Wouldn't the Glyph of Army of the Dead be useful for the saem reason? You can use Army without having to worry about the tank losing agro.

Well, there are uses for having Army not taunt off, but the issue is a lot less important than for Death Grip. Firstly, Army doesn't taunt raid bosses, so that's not an issue. Given army's huge cooldown, it is quite possible to have it cast when there is nothing around to taunt. Moreover, I sometimes find Army to be useful with its taunts (for example, the final Protect on Lei Shi can get a bit dodgy, and popping Army then is usually enough to keep the adds in check until you kill one).

For Death Grip, though, there's basically never ever a time when you want to taunt something with it as a DPS. So, it takes the pressure out and allows you to safely Death Grip adds around, such as to get a stray hard-hitting add to the place where the tank is without getting yourself killed in the meanwhile.

So it might have over looked a previous post on this. But why is Mr. Robot telling me to gem straight haste instead of strength. I have a chest and legs that have a socket bonus of strength and haste. So i gemmed the +hit/str and +haste/str to get the +strength socket bonus, but mr. robot says to just gem straight +320 haste. Any info would be much appreciated.

Hey.

For most (if not all) gear levels, 2H Frost Death Knights prefer Haste over Strength in terms of gemming. The reason is simple: each gem gives twice as much secondary stats (Haste Rating) as it does primary stats (Strength), so if one point of Haste Rating is worth more than 0.5 of one point of Strength, gemming Haste is better. To find out the exact values, you should put your character through Simulationcraft, and then put those values in Ask Mr. Robot. That said, I believe you can safely gem Haste at all gear levels currently.

It all depends on your stat weights. As the saying goes, the tool is only as good as the person using it. If YOU aren't putting in your own stat weights (Simcraft can help you with this) it will have to use the default ones it has, which put Haste above Strength, meaning it will make you gem Haste.

Indeed. Thank you :)

[Vlad 411]

I've made several updates, mainly centering around the fact that Dual-Wielding is now the "top" DPS spec at least in simulations. For anyone wondering (I saw some asking about it a while ago), Dual-Wielding only beats Two-Handed with Blood Tap. With Runic Empowerment, Two-Handed is still ahead.

Thanks guys!

[Guest Pontus]

Hi Vlad could u explain to me why it says that you should use your killing machine proc on frost strike when u are dw but later on you day use obliterate

[Guest Orladel]

You may use Obliterate on KM procs only if u don't have enough RP to cast a Frost Strike.