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[Archived] Combat Rogue 5.4

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In the part about weapons, It's now viable for combat Rogues to duel wield 2.6 speed weapons since Combat Potancy scales with slower weapons. And 1.4 speed daggers are gone.

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In the part about weapons, It's now viable for combat Rogues to duel wield 2.6 speed weapons since Combat Potancy scales with slower weapons. And 1.4 speed daggers are gone.

Thank you again! The guides have been fixed.

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Under combo points and energy, in the rotation section, you write that Blade Flurry reduces your energy regen by 15%, this is now 20%.

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Under combo points and energy, in the rotation section, you write that Blade Flurry reduces your energy regen by 15%, this is now 20%.

Correcting myself here, it is currently 30% on live, 20% on the current beta patch. (It says 20% in the tooltip on this site.)

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Under combo points and energy, in the rotation section, you write that Blade Flurry reduces your energy regen by 15%, this is now 20%.

That was fixed, thank you very much ;)

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In the part about weapons, It's now viable for combat Rogues to duel wield 2.6 speed weapons since Combat Potancy scales with slower weapons. And 1.4 speed daggers are gone.

What about deadly poison? Won't that proc more often with a 1.8 OH, or has that changed from percent chance on hit to a set procs per minute?

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To answer the poster above; Deadly Poison has a fixed 30% chance to proc. The viability of dualwielding two slow weapons will have to be mathed out properly. There are many factors that play in; 1) Deadly Poison procs, 2) Killing Spree damage, 3) Enchants and trinket proc rates affected by less attacks being made overall, and so on. It isn't just a straight forward calculation.

A few questions on the guide;

Why did you come to the conclusion that Subterfuge is the best option? Did you take Bandit's Guile into consideration? 120 Energy on Ambush is quite a lot, especially considering those could have been spent on 1x Revealing Strike and 2x Sinister Strike for a total of 3.4 average combo points and 3 charges of the 4 you need to enter Shallow Insight (versus 2x Ambush which only gives 4 combo points) for the same amount of energy. Does the damage provided by those two Ambushes outperform the other advantages of starting right onto the rotation? And if it is a close race, how does that look with Shadow Focus instead?

As with the talent Choice of Preparation - Does Vanish -> Ambush actually outperform the loss of 1.5 Sinister Strikes (and the bandit's guile progression that provides)? And what of the lost weapon swings due to swing reset? If combined with Shadow Focus the Ambush becomes free of charge, which means you only sacrifice the lost weapon swings, but with Subterfuge the ambush(es) cost the full 60 energy. Though I find this point a bit moot, as it is a bit unlikely to see another patchwerk fight where melee stand still the entire fight, which means Shadowstep will likely outperform the gained Ambush regardless (it doesn't take many swings to sum up the damage the Ambush does, adding up melee hits, poison hits, main gauche procs and potential trinket procs or similar effects). Thoughts on this?

On to the rotation aspect it might be worth noting that you do not really need a 100% uptime on Revealing Strike. If you emptied your energy bar as the Revealing Strike debuff ran out, there is no point spamming it to get it back up as soon as you can, as then the timer on the debuff will start running again from that moment and you sit there waiting for more energy to perform any actions anyways. You should, however, make sure that Revealing Strike's debuff is up on the target whenever you perform a Sinister Strike or a damaging Finisher. This means that delaying Revealing Strike in situations where you would not perform any actions that are affected by the revealing strike debuff for a given amount of time would be beneficial.

Oh, and as a note; Blade Flurry's Energy regen reduction was reduced from 30% to 20%.

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Why is it every guide I see still includes Rupture in the combat rotation? Hours of playtesting on my rogue shows it's a significant DPS loss versus Sticking to Evis only. It would seem the section on core abilities for combat in-game further supports this as it makes no mention of rupture.

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To answer the poster above; Deadly Poison has a fixed 30% chance to proc. The viability of dualwielding two slow weapons will have to be mathed out properly. There are many factors that play in; 1) Deadly Poison procs, 2) Killing Spree damage, 3) Enchants and trinket proc rates affected by less attacks being made overall, and so on. It isn't just a straight forward calculation.

For you for sharing your insight :)

A few questions on the guide;

Why did you come to the conclusion that Subterfuge is the best option? Did you take Bandit's Guile into consideration? 120 Energy on Ambush is quite a lot, especially considering those could have been spent on 1x Revealing Strike and 2x Sinister Strike for a total of 3.4 average combo points and 3 charges of the 4 you need to enter Shallow Insight (versus 2x Ambush which only gives 4 combo points) for the same amount of energy. Does the damage provided by those two Ambushes outperform the other advantages of starting right onto the rotation? And if it is a close race, how does that look with Shadow Focus instead?

When I wrote this guide, I was under the impression that Subterfuge was broken in Simulation Craft. It turns out that it isn't broken, but it is implemented in such a way that it is hard to test this talent. I've recently offered my services to work on Simulation Craft, so I've gotten a lot more experienced with the tool. In any case, back then I had to make an educated guess and went for Subterfuge. Today, I finally managed to test things properly in Simulation Craft, and it turns out that Shadow Focus is approximately 1% better than Subterfuge. I wasn't far off, but it was wrong so that guide has been amended.

As with the talent Choice of Preparation - Does Vanish -> Ambush actually outperform the loss of 1.5 Sinister Strikes (and the bandit's guile progression that provides)? And what of the lost weapon swings due to swing reset? If combined with Shadow Focus the Ambush becomes free of charge, which means you only sacrifice the lost weapon swings, but with Subterfuge the ambush(es) cost the full 60 energy. Though I find this point a bit moot, as it is a bit unlikely to see another patchwerk fight where melee stand still the entire fight, which means Shadowstep will likely outperform the gained Ambush regardless (it doesn't take many swings to sum up the damage the Ambush does, adding up melee hits, poison hits, main gauche procs and potential trinket procs or similar effects). Thoughts on this?

Yes, casting Preparation to enable Vanish is a DPS increase over not using it. As you said, the point is a bit moot because in reality Shadowstep will end up being used more often than Preparation. In that regard, we will have boss-specific advice on the site for each class :)

On to the rotation aspect it might be worth noting that you do not really need a 100% uptime on Revealing Strike. If you emptied your energy bar as the Revealing Strike debuff ran out, there is no point spamming it to get it back up as soon as you can, as then the timer on the debuff will start running again from that moment and you sit there waiting for more energy to perform any actions anyways. You should, however, make sure that Revealing Strike's debuff is up on the target whenever you perform a Sinister Strike or a damaging Finisher. This means that delaying Revealing Strike in situations where you would not perform any actions that are affected by the revealing strike debuff for a given amount of time would be beneficial.

Thank you for this. I added a note in the Revealing Strike section.

Oh, and as a note; Blade Flurry's Energy regen reduction was reduced from 30% to 20%.

Fixed :)

Why is it every guide I see still includes Rupture in the combat rotation? Hours of playtesting on my rogue shows it's a significant DPS loss versus Sticking to Evis only. It would seem the section on core abilities for combat in-game further supports this as it makes no mention of rupture.

In Simulation Craft, it is a DPS loss not to use Rupture. The DPS loss is not very high (about 1% or 2%). So, I added a mention that skipping Rupture simplifies the rotation but that it provokes a 1 or 2% DPS loss.

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Heya! Great Guide! =D

I Know that's just a event ring and you just have 1 week in all year to find it as a "Event Boss drop" Item, but I missed the Seal of Ghoulish Glee (Ring) at your guide, a 470 lvl ring:

http://www.wowdb.com...ee?cookieTest=1

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Thanks you for the inclusion of the line about Rupture and the slight DPS loss. I would still contend that in actual game situations, using Rupture is actually a dps loss, but understand you design the guide around SimCraft.

Something else I would like to point out: In the section on multi-targets, you mention that with 2 targets, to just turn on Blade Flurry and continue your normal rotation. I'd point out that, since you have Rupture as part of the normal rotation, you should make a note about excluding it during Blade Flurry, as DoTs do not transfer. Even simcraft should recognize Blade Flurry/Rupture as a significant DPS loss. Especially important to note on the Stone Guard encounter, as Blade Flurry should be up the entire fight.

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You should add Monks to the loot competition section at the the end of this great guide.

thank you all for creating this

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Heya! Great Guide! =D I Know that's just a event ring and you just have 1 week in all year to find it as a "Event Boss drop" Item, but I missed the Seal of Ghoulish Glee (Ring) at your guide, a 470 lvl ring.

Looks like I've read this message a little late :( Sorry...

Thanks you for the inclusion of the line about Rupture and the slight DPS loss. I would still contend that in actual game situations, using Rupture is actually a dps loss, but understand you design the guide around SimCraft. Something else I would like to point out: In the section on multi-targets, you mention that with 2 targets, to just turn on Blade Flurry and continue your normal rotation. I'd point out that, since you have Rupture as part of the normal rotation, you should make a note about excluding it during Blade Flurry, as DoTs do not transfer. Even simcraft should recognize Blade Flurry/Rupture as a significant DPS loss. Especially important to note on the Stone Guard encounter, as Blade Flurry should be up the entire fight.

Simulation Craft is a big help on a number of things, we can't rely on it solely. The thing about Rupture is that if you use it properly (i.e. as well as SimC), then you can squeeze some extra damage out of it. For the majority of the players, it is probably best to skip Rupture, but I believe that it's better to present the optimal rotation first (since it's fairly simple) and then give people a choice about whether using Rupture or not.

In any case, there is now a mention of Rupture in the part where I talk about Blade Flurry.

You should add Monks to the loot competition section at the the end of this great guide. thank you all for creating this

We finally added monks to all loot competition sections ;)

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It is me again. When I check my gems in Ask Mr Robot, he optimize my equips with haste gems, and you keep saying to socket with another kind of jewels, but recommends at the same time to check in Mr Robot website! I am a little confused...Should I socket as you say, or obbey the robot?

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It is me again. When I check my gems in Ask Mr Robot, he optimize my equips with haste gems, and you keep saying to socket with another kind of jewels, but recommends at the same time to check in Mr Robot website! I am a little confused...Should I socket as you say, or obbey the robot?

I've updated this part of the guide. It should now be on par with the recommendations from Ask Mr. Robot ;)

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Hi can you tell me if there is a cap on energy regeneration, whenever I increase my haste stats currently at 4,084 9.61%, my energy regen goes up for a very short while then resets to 10,52 per second?? Should I re reforge to increase my expertise from 4.5% to 7.5% at the expense of the energy regen? cheers

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Hi can you tell me if there is a cap on energy regeneration, whenever I increase my haste stats currently at 4,084 9.61%, my energy regen goes up for a very short while then resets to 10,52 per second?? Should I re reforge to increase my expertise from 4.5% to 7.5% at the expense of the energy regen? cheers

There should be no such cap. Could we please have a link to your armory?

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In the section for Glyph of kick you say that the cooldown is reduced to 9 seconds on a successful kick, however the wording suggests the new cooldown (19 seconds) is reduced by 6 seconds, which would result in a 13 second cooldown, is this correct?

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Also wouldn't glyph of deadly momentum be helpful for slice and dice

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In the section for Glyph of kick you say that the cooldown is reduced to 9 seconds on a successful kick, however the wording suggests the new cooldown (19 seconds) is reduced by 6 seconds, which would result in a 13 second cooldown, is this correct?

Correct! Thank you for spotting that, I fixed it :)

Also wouldn't glyph of deadly momentum be helpful for slice and dice

The problem with Glyph of Deadly Momentum is that it only works when you deliver the killing blow. Even if there are many adds. Chances are slim that you will be the one, amongst all the other raiders, to kill an add.

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Why is that no guide says that it is worth holding off on adrenalin rush if killing spree cooldown is almost up. not sure on how long you should be willing to wait but i do know that if you use killing spree before AR, then killing spree's cooldown will most likely be down to 20seconds or so due to Restless Blades, by the time you are done with AR. Also if Killing spree comes off cooldown halfway throu AR you will be forced to wait till AR is done to use it and there for miss the bonus of AR/Restless blades and prolong its cooldown. with out doing any math i would think that being willing to wait up to maybe 5 or 10 seconds so you can use killing spree then AR would be a dps gain, i do realize that you dont want to wait to long to use AR or that could cause more of a dps loss than you would gain waiting to use it to lower ur killing spree cooldown. Its realy late and im super sleepy, i hope this is understandable. Any thoughts on this?

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First of all, I'd like to thank Icy veins for this amazing guide, and I appreciate all the hard work you've put into this Posted Image

And to my point, why do you say that the fifth tier makes no difference in PvE?

Prey on the Weak for example does have an impact in regards of raid dmg on the stunnable adds on the Lei Shi encounter (the elemental add) and on Will of the Emperor, on the Emperor's Rage adds, it's 10% more dmg to those for 8 seconds if you use a 5 cp kidney with the revealing strike debuff.

- Nosbror

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Rupture, Rupture, Rupture.

I havent met combat rogue who doesn't use that. Except myself. Applying Rupture is loss of dps!

Why? How?

Simply, Rupture isn't main-hand attack like eviscerate and you don't have chance to get main gauche attack (mastery proc attack) when you apply it. Let's see the calculations:

Rupture does 51k damage costs (25 energy)

Eviscerate does 41k damage + gives chance for main gauche attack + gives chance for combat potency proc (restores 15 energy) from main gauche attack. (costs 35 energy)

Again,

Rupture does 51k damage (costs 25 energy)

Eviscerate does 41k damage + 25k damage from main gauche devided by 2/5 (40% of mastery proc in raid) and multiplied by 1.25 (25% crit chance in raid) + chance to restore 15 energy from combat potency if main gauche procs

Rupture does 51k damage and saves 10 energy per 24 secs

Eviscerate does 53,5k damage and have chance to restore 15 energy.

Which one is better?

BTW

Eviscerate damage increase scales with attack power and crit, mastery and crit again for main gauche

Rupture damage increase scales only with attack power and crit

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