gonlaz

Assassination Rogue - serious help needed

15 posts in this topic

First, please don't derail this thread.

Second, please understand that I have exhausted almost all avenues.

Thank you in advance

 

 

Greetings,
 
History:
ICC full clears, post nerf (tinyserver)
Cata all tiers cleared PRE nerf, including DS H 
MoP took 6 months off in January 2013 (cleared msv on other toons before leaving), cleared tot in July 2013
Was 9/14 SOO in October.
Currently 11/14H SOO (really though the last two were fights I saw once)
 
I was hitting better #'s in both 10 and 25 man is lesser gear, wtf
 
Shadowcraft - while mathematically correct - isn't helping me. Example, tells me to gem crit - every Rogue I speak to says that is wrong, these are top Rogues on the Zuljin Server, they do not gem crit.
Also these rogues use the 4 piece H set, while everything I read everywhere else says not to go for the 4 piece.
Also Many top rogues are combat.
Mr Robot and reforge lite give me the same answers, so it has to be me, but what it is I don't know. I am sure there are issues in my logs, but man for the life of me I can't think what I do differently now in heroics than I did pre heroics.
 
 
 
I had been and should be pulling WAY better numbers. I don't think I forgot how to play overnight but something is wrong and I am not sure what that is.
 
I have always researched, studied, hit target dummies and up until I switched to SOO Heroic I suck, stink, can't do sh*t and I look terrible out there. The EJ thread is old and outdated. Gemming all Agi on reds isn't helping, using Crit Gems isn't helping, going all haste (which doesn't make sense anyway) isn't helping. I know my rotation. Now tonight there were several technical issues with my ui and I was a little nervous and got dcd once or twice but other than that - for example I thought I nailed the sha fight but yeesh - and Naz I thought I was doing good but again, yeesh (and even though I do not have the logs to show you, I did 286k on 25m H Naz in lesser gear, I've done 296 on Galakras H 25 man. I think at one point tonight I was at under 200k on Naz.
I have no idea what to do.
I wouldn't have even posted here (as I am sure I'll get flamed about shadowcraft at the very least - I am not a math guy but I don't trust it, I'm sorry) but it's a last resort for me. If anyone would be so kind as to check this info out, I would greatly appreciate it, greatly.
 
 
Thank you in advance and I apologize if I've posted incorrectly in any way
 
Awful 215k on H sha 25m:
 
Dark Shaman H 25m (note the rogue in 579 gear destroying me (well he did get to tunnel earthbreaker, I was down with the ranged n wavebinder):
 
Naz H 25m
 
 
I'm wondering if I should just switch to combat for all fights. Hell just the other day I stated I was comfortable with my shit, I was but then this happened, I'm concerned.
Edited by gonlaz

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I don't have time right now, but I'll be sure to look at it in the morning if no-one else has!

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I'll have some time after work today, check back in 12 hours.

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Major things I see on Sha:

 

Rupture uptime should be ~95%.  There's no excuse for letting it fall, and it's a major part of Assassination's energy regen.  68% is not good.

 

I see a Blindside proc near the tail end of the fight.  Sub 35%, you should be switching solely to Dispatch, with not Muts going out.

 

You're spending a LOT of energy on Burst of Speed.  I see 35 casts, which is 525 energy lost.  That's a crazy amount.  Remember to Sprint first, Burst later.

 
I wouldn't be spending CP on Recoup.  If your healers can't keep you up between a few good CoS and Cheat Death, it's going to be their fault, not yours.
 
I can't tell directly because you don't have Advanced Combat Logging turned on, but from your Envenom durations, it looks like you're not pooling Energy.  You should be going into Envenoms with 80% energy, because more yellow attacks means more poison damage during Enven.  You also don't want to clip Envenoms, letting it get close to falling or falling before reapplying, or reapplying early if you're close to capping on CP/Energy.
 
 
Major things I see on Nazgrim:
 
Again with Rupture.  Especially on Nazgrim, you can apply it to Naz before adds come out, and still gain it's energy regen benefits.  I'd be expecting ~80% on this fight, unless you're allowed to attack/reapply during Defensive.  A good tip for this is getting 5 CP on an add, redirecting it to Naz, and applying your Rupture.  Because it doesn't do upfront damage, it won't give him energy.
 
Burst of Speed was better.  I'd expect ~20 for a fight like this.
 
You let one Blindside expire.  Probably defensive phase?
 
Envenom was in better strings.  I'd still rather see 12-16 seconds at a time, rather than short spurts.
 
Again re: Recoup.  Healers should be fine without you, and you could've redirected those CP or reapplied Rupture with them.
 
Lots of your Feints are lining up with periods of no damage intake.  Make sure you're not wasting that energy!
 
 
If you can, try to find and link a Malkorok.  Shamans/Nazgrim are both awful fights to try to audit, to be honest.  There's too much going on, and your job may not be 'tunnel boss'.
 
I don't think anyone is going to flame you re: Shadowcraft.  It's correct, but all of the secondaries are pretty close for Assassination, and it focuses on a single build rather than a variety of builds.
 
I personally ran a Mastery > Haste > Crit build, and had a pretty good time with it.  It excels for people who can pool energy well due to Envenom and Mastery: Potent Poisons.  
 
A Crit > Haste > Mastery build excels for people who would rather do more hits than stronger hits, due to Seal Fate.  
 
A Haste > Mastery = Crit build excels for people who would rather Assassination plays like the other specs by maximizing energy regen and Rupture ticks.
 
 
As for your gear, make sure you get a belt buckle on that belt!  Get your expertise over 7.5%!  And get those JC specific Agi gems in your gear!

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Thanks, I have some questions but first:

 

I was so tired after trying to figure this out last night that when I switched gems around I forgot to use the 2 jc gems, I did hav them on during those fights...was wearing a diff belt too, will fix that today. Also my hit was over 7.5 during the fights(I switched belts), will adjust :)

 

 

Is my crit, haste, etc lined up ok?

 

Why does a combat rogue kill me on everything, with a gear diff of 8 points?

 

How did I go from being a top damage dealer to crap after breaking my 4 piece and hitting heroic modes? (ok not the most realistic question but...)

 

Should I switch to combat? I have two heroic weapons, the fist and the dagger or 2nd fist...?

 

I had been using reforge lite for years, never had any issues, I'd rather not use shadow craft, like for anything it seems to be just something I can't get - I do what it says and my numbers drop more, I hate it. (this is actually what started it all, I broke my 4 piece, equipped some heroic gloves, was told to use shadowcraft and my numbers sank like a stone, ever since then it's been like this...could be in my head)

 

Should I sacrifice the shoulders to go back to my 4 piece?

 

Enevenom - you said not to clip it, cut it off too soon or too early...that confuses me. Are you saying let it run off each time and then just rebuild it?

 

 

What I am going to do:

 

Remove Recup off my bar

pay more attention to recup

focus harder I guess.

 

We run malk tonight, it's a trial so I hope they keep me, I want this tier cleared. I will post it.

Edited by gonlaz

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Thanks, I have some questions but first:

 

I was so tired after trying to figure this out last night that when I switched gems around I forgot to use the 2 jc gems, I did hav them on during those fights...was wearing a diff belt too, will fix that today. Also my hit was over 7.5 during the fights(I switched belts), will adjust smile.png

 

 

Is my crit, haste, etc lined up ok?

 

Why does a combat rogue kill me on everything, with a gear diff of 8 points?

 

How did I go from being a top damage dealer to crap after breaking my 4 piece and hitting heroic modes? (ok not the most realistic question but...)

 

Should I switch to combat? I have two heroic weapons, the fist and the dagger or 2nd fist...?

 

I had been using reforge lite for years, never had any issues, I'd rather not use shadow craft, like for anything it seems to be just something I can't get - I do what it says and my numbers drop more, I hate it. (this is actually what started it all, I broke my 4 piece, equipped some heroic gloves, was told to use shadowcraft and my numbers sank like a stone, ever since then it's been like this...could be in my head)

 

Should I sacrifice the shoulders to go back to my 4 piece?

 

Enevenom - you said not to clip it, cut it off too soon or too early...that confuses me. Are you saying let it run off each time and then just rebuild it?

 

 

What I am going to do:

 

Remove Recup off my bar

pay more attention to recup

focus harder I guess.

 

We run malk tonight, it's a trial so I hope they keep me, I want this tier cleared. I will post it.

The way you line it up is completely up to you.  You say that you're comfortable doing a Mastery build, so with that, you should work on your Energy pooling and yellow hits during Envenom as I mentioned

 

In my opinion, Combat is the easier spec to play right now, and that may just be the entire thing.  To get to 90% of it's power, it's literally just:

Apply Debuff --> Spam for CP --> Maintain SnD --> Use your CDs.

 

The 4pc isn't bad for Assass, it's just nothing special.  It's probably worth around 1k to 1500 DPS.  The stats and Agi you have on the heroic are probably worth more, though.

 

Combat or Sublety.  Sub is a LOT of fun to play, and is always my spec of choice, because I love the gameplay of Expose Weakness.  Combat is the easier to play, though.  If you're doing serious progression, changing specs could be a positive thing.  If you're not, play what's fun for you!

 

I wouldn't blame Shadowcraft.  As I said, it's not great at Assassination, because the builds will depend on playstyle.  A crit-focused build is all about getting more CP and Envenoms out.  But saying it's wrong isn't right, at least in my opinion.  Again, stick with what you're comfortable doing.  I also use ReforgeLite for the majority of my reforging, and you should know how to tweak it to get the stats you want.  Go with the build you like, not what Shadowcraft tells you to, and adjust ReforgeLite accordingly.

 

What I mean is, it has a 6 second duration, and you want to wait until it just barely falls off to reapply it.  The reasoning behind this is that any yellow attacks can proc poisons, except for Envenom.  So you build CP (up to 9 or 10) during it's duration, then when it's falling, you reapply Envenom.  If you're going to clip CP (Because of Seal Fate, 9 is your max) and energy, you can refresh early.  It's complex, but you should get the hang of it any time.

 

Remove Recoup - Check

Pay more attention to Rupture - Check

Focus harder - Check

Use less Burst of Speed?

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Alright, understood. I already went back to Shadow Step, it is better after all for many fights. Yeah I think if for some reason I have forgotten how to play assassination literally overnight then I will go combat for the rest of the tier. I have the gear for it. I'll run tnight as mut and see what happens, thank you.

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It's probably just nervousness in a new raiding environment.  No-one likes to be on the bottom.

 

As a side note, I just specced my Rogue Assassination, so I could better comment.  And then I remembered how much I hate it...

 

That being said, I just lost track of time and spent 45 minutes (!) on a dummy.  80% Envenom uptime w/ 99% Rupture uptime.  Consider those some good goals on Malkorok.

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Ok here's Malk, for some reason the uptime on envenom did not show at all, odd considering I used the hell out of it. I wonder if I'm missing something with warcraft logs, you mentioned advanced logging. I'll read that thread again to see whats' up. Rupture was at 93%

 

http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/gzhmBKaFWLrCHy9Z#type=damage-done&fight=6&source=37

 

Look at my assassination colleague. Maybe compare these, his rupture was super low compared to me:

 

http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/gzhmBKaFWLrCHy9Z#type=damage-done&fight=6&source=52

 

I'm still so far behind them though, I'm really shocked about the whole thing. My guild finished 8th on Hyjal on Heroic T13 out of several hundred raiding guilds. I've been raiding for quite a while, I really am baffled. Even if rupture was at 93% instead of 98 how could that be 100k less than another rogue?

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Your play was REALLY solid on Malkorok.  93% Rupture and 67% Envenom are great uptimes, coming from 68% and 25% on Sha.  Keep those uptimes rising and you'll have no issues being top DPS soon.

 

That other rogue (Imoen) has 7 item levels on you.  The fact that you were only 20k DPS behind them speaks volumes to how much better your play was than theirs.  Hell, the upgrade on Assurance of Consequence could make up that much alone (as it's drops Vendettas CD by another 7 seconds), nevermind the HWF offhand (which makes every melee and Mut hit that much harder).  If you had equal gear, you'd be ahead of them by 15k+.

 

The Combat rogue that's on top was padding like crazy on the slimes.  I wouldn't even worry about them.

 

Re: Thok

 

Your attempts on that weren't bad.  Just make sure to get that Rupture time up.  A good way to tell if you're doing well is to compare your uptime to that of Deadly Poison.  They should be pretty close together.

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Ok cool, thanks - any ideas on that advanced logging or are the instructions in the thread about it? Also did you see the missing uptimes stuff? What's that about?

 

That's funny about the combat rogue, she hit pretty hard on thok though, before the bats but like you saw she too has better gear.

Side note, I went ahead and gemmed/reforged up my combat gear in case I have to go that full time. I hit a training dummy and that spec is so weak on single target, of course I'm rusty, but the rotation is sleepy so it shouldn't be hard to improve.

Thanks again, your help has really been appreciated

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Ok cool, thanks - any ideas on that advanced logging or are the instructions in the thread about it? Also did you see the missing uptimes stuff? What's that about?

 

That's funny about the combat rogue, she hit pretty hard on thok though, before the bats but like you saw she too has better gear.

Side note, I went ahead and gemmed/reforged up my combat gear in case I have to go that full time. I hit a training dummy and that spec is so weak on single target, of course I'm rusty, but the rotation is sleepy so it shouldn't be hard to improve.

Thanks again, your help has really been appreciated

I see the uptime on it just fine!  It's up between the 'full time' buffs.

 

Advanced Logging just lets you take a look at your energy, and if you're capping.  I doubt it's an issue, but it's always something to look at.  The option is available under System --> Network, and it can have an effect on your MS, so be aware.

 

The thing about combat is that they're so good during their CDs, then they're sub-par.  The CDR trinket (Assurance) absolutely makes that spec.

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