Assassination Rogue Assistance

11 posts in this topic

Hi Icy Veins - 


Long time lurker, first time poster.  I was recently made an officer of my guild and tasked with helping up the DPS.  We're a casual guild that isn't looking to be first in hardcore progression but we've managed a respectable 5/14H raiding 3 nights a week.  Unfortunately I've always had an aversion to melee DPS myself and I'm struggling to help our rogue who consistently at or near the bottom of the meters sometimes even below tanks.





Recent Logs


H Gal attempts / Norm Kill 



H Imm - H Sha



I've walked him through Shadowcraft, gone over logs with him and asked that he focus on keeping up SnD, Rupture, and Envenom and he was doing good for awhile.  I didn't delve into the nuances of Tricks or other items because I wanted him to get back to the basics.  He even downloaded a trainer mod (Assassin?) to help him with his rotation and that jumped him up in the DPS.  


But overall I feel like there's something missing that he is generally lower than others in the raid.  He's seems open to suggestions asking that I tell him what is wrong so he can fix it, but I need some professional input from the experts!



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Here's what I'm seeing.


Shadowcraft audit: His gems are not optimal, and with new gems his reforging could change a bit. However, it would cost thousands of gold to change every gem in his gear for what appears to be a sub-1k damage per second increase. I would say it isn't worth it, but that's up to you.


Sha of Pride log: The number one blaring red flag problem is that he is not switching to Dispatch when the boss is at 35% health. This is a major DPS loss. Have him remove Dispatch from his bars and use the following macro instead of Mutilate. You will see a big DPS jump.


#showtooltip Dispatch
/castsequence reset=0.2 1, Mutilate;
/castsequence reset=0.2 Dispatch;
Other stuff for Sha of Pride:
Rupture: 80% uptime. This is low for the Assassination spec. With Slice and Dice refreshing itself and no other timer ability to worry about, this number should be closer to 95%. He did get picked for Corrupted Prison a lot in this kill, but he should be looking at the boss timer for this ability and getting a good Rupture on in case he is debuffed.
Envenom: 41% uptime. From what I can tell he is not clipping this buff, but there are strangely long gaps in the buff as well. There's a few 20 second gaps, a couple 30 second gaps, and a stretch of over 1 minute that he did not gain the Envenom buff (which was during Time Warp). That's a big problem.
Tricks of the Trade: I know you told him not to worry about it, but it's not a hard ability to use in a mostly effective way. There are very complicated ways to optimize your Tricks usage, but the easiest way is to use the following macro along with a power aura:
/cast [target=focus] Tricks of the Trade
Set focus to the best DPS and the raid's damage will be higher.
He used Recuperate, Fan of Knives and Shiv in this fight as well. Recuperate is far too costly to use in a raid situation, Shiv has no place on Sha of Pride, and unless your raid is seriously hurting for AoE damage on the add spawns, he shouldn't bother AoE'ing at all. Other classes are far better at maintaining single target DPS while AoE'ing than rogues are.

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Thank you Krush.  I've been reading all of your posts here and on your guild site trying to find answers.  I even dusted off my rogue and followed your advice to make sure I understood the rotation before I chatted with him.


One question on the macro though.  If I'm reading it right it will cast mutilate unless the boss is low health in which case it switches to dispatch.  How does that work with blindside procs?  Will it automatically use up the proc even is the boss is above 25% before it attempts mutilate?

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All the macro will do is try to cast Dispatch before it tries to cast Mutilate. This works because Dispatch is unusable unless there is a Blindside proc or the boss is sub 35% health. Therefore, it will use Dispatch on both Blindside procs and sub-35% target health.

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Ok.  I'm an idiot and forgot about that "little" nuance to dispatch.  This is what happens when I try to review logs on break at work instead of at home when I have my alt toon up to look at all of the buttons and tooltips.  

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Heh, don't worry. You can't be expected to know everything about every class, that's resources like Icy Veins are out there.

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Man, Krush is all over this.


Another thing that I'd look at is energy capping.  I've looked at Sha for this, pinning the mechanics that can disable someone to his energy pool.  You can see that most of the time capping wasn't their fault, but there are at least 5 times in which it is their fault.


From looking at their IJ attempts, I think they may be better than you're thinking, with Sha just being a poor fight.  Check out this attempt:


SnD on the first spender.

71% Enven time

8/8 Blindside procs

Good Vendetta usage.

93% Rupture, including clipping the last 3 seconds (good thing), with the only downtime being because of applying SnD.


Now here's what I don't get.


Why were they using the DS legendary daggers for Galakras?

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In the last couple of months, I've seen some good improvement in his uptimes, but things still feel low to me compared to other rogue logs I review.  I got on him (and all the dps) last night because most dps weren't switching to the adds on Heroic Malkorok and I saw a big dip in his numbers from switching.  He insists that switching to adds on any fight (Immerseus, Sha, Nazgrim, Malkorok) is bad for rogues.  I also noticed he's not even using the two-piece bonus anymore.  Is the bonus not worth it I know he has the heroic tier chest and I think the hands as well as normal tier for everything else.  Any ideas or suggestions I can go back to him with?  I've asked him to review the great forums here but I don't think he does.


Logs from the past week
(H Malkorok wipes)
(H Shamans and Naz)
(H Noru thru Iron Jugg)

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Switching targets can be a huge problem. But it can also increase DPS in the right circumstances. The biggest issue is combo points. They're currently fixed on the target.


If I'm fighting Boss A and get 5 combo points, then switch to Add B, the 5 combo points are still on A. I can use Redirect to move them to B, and essentially carry on my rotation as if nothing happened. If the add will be alive for a little while, I can get another Rupture going, which will proc alongside the Rupture I should have on the boss, giving me more energy back (through Venomous Wounds procs), and with the Glyph of Redirect I'll be able to use Redirect again after 10 seconds, so I won't lose combo points from the add.


Of course, if things are dying incredibly fast, it can be tough to know how far to go with building combo points and getting bleeds up. I'd say it comes with some experience. You should quickly get a feel for whether it's worth getting a 3-point Rupture going, or if you should just build 5 and Envenom and then move on.


For Spoils of Pandaria, which is essentially a non-stop add-fest, Marked For Death is a nice talent to use. It instantly applies 5 combo points to the target, and if the target dies within 1 minute the CD is reset. It has a 1 minute CD anyway, so if the target doesn't die within 1 minute, you get to use it again on that target. For all the smaller adds, it means you should be able to move more smoothly between mobs without worrying about having to build combo points every time.

Works well for Phase 1 of Galakras, too.


Switching targets efficiently and effectively is more a matter of adapting to that style of play.


The Malkorok log shows he was playing as combat. Which explains his gems and reforging. He seems to be using the same gear for both specs. It's not optimal for assassination.


According to Shadowcraft, using the HC tier chest over the HC Warforged non-tier is an upgrade of about 4%. The 2-set bonus is quite strong. The 4-set bonus could probably be ignored in favour of a HC WF non-tier piece.


Looking at the logs (I'm not an expert here)...


I see Crimson Tempest and Garrote on all of them, and Shiv on all but one.


Garrote is a silence/bleed which can only be used from stealth. Venomous Wounds will proc from it (it ticks every 3 seconds) but not if Rupture is already on the target, which it should be. Rupture ticks every 2 seconds, and with 5 combo points lasts longer. If he's restealthing, he should be using Mutilate (or Ambush - but Mutilate has a chance to proc Blindside). The silence effect is unlikely to work on bosses. Maybe on adds, but I haven't come across anything I've had to interrupt that I couldn't use Kick for.


For some reason, he keeps using Vanish-Garrote.


Crimson Tempest is a fairly poor AoE attack. It costs combo points and also causes a bleed effect. It doesn't need to be used, especially not on Iron Juggernaut.


Shiv is okay for stunning/interrupting (depending on the non-lethal poison applied). And it's good for dispelling enrage effects (e.g. jailer on Thok or the mantid mobs that enrage). Personally, if I need to stun a mob, I use Kidney Shot with the Prey on the Weak talent, which means the stunned mob now takes more damage from ALL sources. It's useful for the Fractures on Galakras, stopping the adds on Immerseus, and killing adds on Nazgrim quickly.


The other thing, which was mentioned before, is the use of Dispatch. He still doesn't seem to be using it during the last 35%. 


He's using a potion a few seconds into the fight, rather than pre-potting. 


I don't know enough about the logs to judge things like energy capping or envenom clipping or any of the little nuances like that. But definitely have him look at his Dispatch usage. There are probably a lot of ways of keeping track of it, but I use WeakAuras and have it set up so that my target's health switches from a red bar to a green bar once it's below 35%, so I can instantly see when I can start using Dispatch.

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Based on the old post vs the new one, it looks like your rogue hasn't changed much at all. Ryudeath still has bad rotation habits, and still has strange ability usage counts. Target switching is the first thing you need to learn how to do as a raiding DPS; those who ignore or dismiss that do not have the success of the raid in mind. It's true that Assassination spec will have a higher damage meter if they never switch targets, nearly every class DPS spec would be, the boss also won't die. Talk to him about that first, and if he wants to learn how to target switch properly for each spec we can help there.


The 2pc bonus is better to keep than switching from a normal to a heroic piece as far as I know, but I can't confirm that.

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Thanks for the input, I didn't realize until last night when I got a chance to dig deeper that he had switched from Assassination to Combat mid raid to give it a try without changing gear, etc.  Had I realized that I wouldn't have even asked for a review.  Looking at one of the earlier pulls as assassination he had great SnD, better rupture uptime, etc.  That last pull though in combat...Yikes.


The whole raid team got a dose of reality this week with having logs analyzed by outside experts and I noticed a huge increase last night in dps and awareness. As I look over his logs I don't see that he ever has cast redirect, so if he's not aware of a major tool (even if it is going away in Warlords) that may be one of the biggest keys to getting him to switch to adds. 


Thank you both.

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