Zagam

@Shizwix

62 posts in this topic

YOU SON OF A BITCH!  I'm ranking #2 and #3 - who is one spot ahead of me every time?  You wait til I shake off this Demo rust....

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Hahahaha.

Ah you'll beat me sooner or later. My 10 man days are over!

My Thok parse though, good luck with that one!

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Yeah, you guys crushed it 2 minutes faster than us.  I need to shake the Demo cobwebs off...I made a lot of mistakes.  Even still, on most fights, only person in the EU or US better than me was you.  Nothing like a solid bar to set.  It was funny in Mumble...Ragebar was going 'Zag, you're number 2 on that one.'  I would reply 'is there some dude named Shizwix ahead of me?'  "yeah."  "son of a bitch."  Next fight: "Zag, you're number 2, and you're not going to be happy who is #1."  "damn it!"

 

I had the most fun I've had raiding in 3 months last night getting to play the spec I adore.  I cannot wait to go 20 man and be able to play it like a rockstar.  Give me 3 or 4 weeks to line up some good RNG and see if I can push you out of the top spot!

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I have no doubt that with a few more ilvls and practice you'll thump me on most fights. I do have a pocket rogue which likely will account for a few ilvls at least, but sooner or later you'll surpass me.

 

I did take a quick peek at the IJ and Malk logs, and your ToC was top damage on both fights. Ideally this should be Doom or meta Soul Fire. Are you moving out of drills/cannons? I scumbag a bit and just plant my feet for the cannons, and only move for drills if I'm in danger smile.png

 

Also using Drain Life on the pull with meta gem and 10 stack BBoY does like 2.5M damage in 2-3 seconds which adds a lot. Using it again to snapshot 10 stack bboy where a soulfire would not have time to complete. It's actually pretty broken.

Edited by Liquidsteel

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Yeah, I saw your pocket Rogue.  I'd love one, but I'm not going to fill a melee spot with a Rogue just for parses. 

 

I think I was trying to argue somewhere else that it was perfectly acceptable to prioritize ToC, especially if you get a 2pc proc and I was going to use my logs to prove it.  Since it clearly didn't make my DPS as bad as most thought it would, I stand behind my priority use.  I was able to make my Metamorphosis uptime really high on fights, like Dark Shamans where it was 52%.  ToC also gives me complete mobility which is invaluable considering how expensive Fel Flame is forcing me to Life Tap more than I want to.  I think you can prioritize ToC over SF just fine as long as you're utilizing the 2pc properly and plan it out to extend Meta.  Even if using Soul Fire is a 1-2% gain, using ToC is a quality of life change that still seems to put me in the top of Demo Warlocks out there, so I can't justifiably argue that it was a gameplay mistake to prioritize ToC over SF.  That, of course, is the basics of it and it goes into a much more in-depth look while I'm in combat.  I still prioritize SF with trinket procs much like I do CB.  Look at the last 20 seconds of my Nazgrim.  I used 9 Soul Fires that averaged 1.2M and did 1.1M effective DPS to him over 20 seconds without Bloodlust.  Basically, the way I Demo is I capture trinket procs with Soul Fire but use ToC otherwise which allows me to generate more DF outside of Meta with MC charges which increases my 2pc uptime.   It goes without saying that this is far more complex than Destruction! biggrin.png

 

I also screwed up a couple of Dooms by getting greedy and trying to capture that 10 stack of BBoY.  Because I'm not used to properly snapshotting, I fudged a couple up and overwrote super Dooms with poopy Dooms.  That'll be fixed in the weeks to come.

 

I saw the Drain Life trick to extend your damage a small bit, but to me, I was literally scared of playing like asshole and was just trying to focus on the basics.  If I get comfortable, I might tinker with Drain Life a bit for that relatively minor, yet still existant, DPS gain. 

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Yeah I've started Dooming at 9 stacks which generally made things safer. The demo opener is so hectic and many a time I got GCD locked and missed the 10 stack by ToCing before it.

 

I know we've been through ToC vs Soul Fire, I'm just of the opinion (can't say for sure) that it shouldn't be our highest damage source, especially if we're running Haste over Crit. I could be wrong, but it just doesn't feel right.

 

I think if I didn't use drain life then ToC would be higher. There are those situations where I go to HoG weave and have like 800+ fury, but say only about 5 stacks of MC. If I've got something like berserking or meta gem up, I'll drain life, which packs a punch and consumes a decent amount of fury. This allows me to get back to caster form and shadowbolting much more quickly.

 

Again, this is just how I feel the spec should work, but in the grand scheme of things that was only the second reset ever where I played Demonology for a prolonged period, and many of the fights were the first attempt with the spec, so it's all still really new and unexplored.

 

I love it.

Edited by Liquidsteel

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Yup - the fun part of Demo is each person can get their own feel.  I saw some Demos using 50%+ Haste, but that feels too quick to me.  15.5k Haste and 20.3k Mastery "felt" perfect to me.  Obviously, more Mastery = higher damage, so more is better, but any more Haste and my decision on what to cast next gets rushed which leads to more potential mistakes.

 

Haste still benefits ToC with reducing the GCD as long as you're below 50% Haste.  At 50%, ToC becomes 1 sec CD as an instant cast.  If I have Tempus Repit up, I drop out of Meta and cast Shadowbolt fishing for Hand of Gul'dan procs or just pumping up DF generation.  Drain Life feels really...weird to slip in there, but hey, it's a neat gimmick to gain some DPS. 

 

I think you and I largely validate that the spec can be played differently to its maximum potential as long as you feel comfortable with how you're playing it.  Our stats aren't the same, our priorities aren't the same, but our DPS is coming out very similarly.  It just goes to show how well the spec is designed for us to play it differently and still perform really well with it despite varying uses of certain abilities. 

 

I'm also an Orc while you're a Troll - my pets gain a 2% bonus (1% in WoD :( ) while you get to snapshot a HUGE Doom.  This could be why your Doom is a higher portion of your damage than mine.  If you're getting Bloodlust + Tempus Repit + Berserking, your Haste-imbedded Doom will be about 35% higher than mine.  With our different races considered along with your pocket Rogue, I think that has to be kept in consideration with DPS variances between the two of us.

 

I love this discussion.  I'll bet more people are reading this going 'holy shit, Demo sounds fun!'  If we pull that off, we might be able to get people out of the doldrums that is Destruction and play an intellectually challenging spec. 

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Yes the extra haste from berserking affords me an extra tick over 14880 haste on a bloodlusted pull with full procs, which can end up to close to 1M damage on the opening Doom :)

 

Anyway, it's a shame my guild is moving to 25 man now. Another few weeks would have been ideal to let us test things a bit more, but I'll play Demo again in 25 man once we kill Garrosh and everything is comfortable. Actually going to dust off Affliction for tonight's raid.

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You should be even more powerful in 25 with more Tricks, more Skull Banners, etc.  You should never worry about any kinda buff or debuff again whereas I played without Crit a lot last night and didn't have access to Skull Banner on some fights.  You should see your numbers explode.  Let's touch base again when everyone goes 20 man in 6.0!

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Yeah our issue was using Drums for 35% bloodlust nine times out of ten.

 

Glad to be back to full raid buffs. Also second skull banner is so nice, because the first has usually expired before you start churning out soulfires and having Doom actually crit.

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Demo has Metamorphosis which should not be underestimated for its defensive capabilities.

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guys like you i love demo spec ,

and if your demo opener is fiddly then sparkuggz does a fantastic cast sequence macro (if you didnt know) opener that i use and (obviously ) you can tweak it to how you want it

 

/castsequence reset=target Hand of Gul'dan, Grimoire: Felguard, Corruption, Dark soul: Knowledge, Lifeblood, Hand of Gul'dan, Imp Swarm(Glyph), metamorphosis, doom, doom,  /petattac

 

1 button opener lol

 

and brusalk on mmo-champion has updated the demo guide there and put in a little section about using harvest life on 10 stacks of BBoY, its a interesting read,

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That opener is outdated from UVLS era in 5.2, Sparkuggz has said so himself.

 

Also it's Zinnin who maintains the Demonology guide, and yes he was the one who came up with the drain life trick.

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I may not be nearly as skilled as you all are, but I got so bored with destro lately that I've swapped to Demo full time. Only fight I go destro on anymore is H Galakras, because it's easier to kill the tower grunt at my current gear. Gemmed for haste, and got 13.5k haste, and 13.7k mastery. I keep thinking of trying the 8097 breakpoint to push more mastery, but it feels so SLOW!

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yeah liquid , i used it in 5.3 but still used it in 5.4 and it still works a treat (after some tweaking)

 

its very unique the drainlife trick ,tried it a couple of times,

 

reading what you guys have wrote on demo here does make me want to go to it and try it out in patch 5.4.8 and i have done some stats sims on AMR and not bad stats if i might say so myself, but the only thing i have tried is the UVLS build and not the haste (default) build,

 

and as for the opener is there something that you do did differantly when you were demo as i see now you are destro/ afflic.

 

also whilst im here , is there a weak aura string that lets you track the proc for tier 16 2pc demo,

 

sorry if ive hijacked the post but when ppl talk about demo i just want to read as much about it as much as i can because of the spec itself i like.

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guys like you i love demo spec ,

and if your demo opener is fiddly then sparkuggz does a fantastic cast sequence macro (if you didnt know) opener that i use and (obviously ) you can tweak it to how you want it

 

/castsequence reset=target Hand of Gul'dan, Grimoire: Felguard, Corruption, Dark soul: Knowledge, Lifeblood, Hand of Gul'dan, Imp Swarm(Glyph), metamorphosis, doom, doom,  /petattac

 

1 button opener lol

 

and brusalk on mmo-champion has updated the demo guide there and put in a little section about using harvest life on 10 stacks of BBoY, its a interesting read,

I never use cast-sequence macros.  It feels...cheaty to me.  I do each ability by itself every time all the time.  The Harvest Life/Drain Life trick is a relatively small gain, but a small gain nonetheless.  I wouldn't recommend complicating an already complicated rotation to those who haven't yet mastered the rotation.

 

Also, that opener is...off, especially if you're using PBI and BBoY.  You have to tweak things to make it flow easier.  Once I confirm my opener is solid, I'll post it.  It's dynamic, however, and changes depending on immediate trinket procs, getting a 2pc proc, or PBI screwing me over.  I basically have 3 different openers I adjust to.

 

reading what you guys have wrote on demo here does make me want to go to it and try it out in patch 5.4.8 and i have done some stats sims on AMR and not bad stats if i might say so myself, but the only thing i have tried is the UVLS build and not the haste (default) build,

 

and as for the opener is there something that you do did differantly when you were demo as i see now you are destro/ afflic.

 

also whilst im here , is there a weak aura string that lets you track the proc for tier 16 2pc demo,

 

sorry if ive hijacked the post but when ppl talk about demo i just want to read as much about it as much as i can because of the spec itself i like.

The "build" is very different.  There doesn't seem to be a winning number in going Haste > Mastery or vice versa.  Just keep the values close and prioritize based on encounters.  Since a lot of encounters have AoE and cleave, Mastery will win out overall.  Changing your stats will have a relatively minor change - just make sure you're comfortable with the build. 

 

There is absolutely a WA for the T16 2pc.  It MUST be tracked - 20% buff is nothing to scoff at.  You can't hijack posts talking about Demo if you talk about Demo.

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Zinnin and Shinafae....

 

Zinnin has been playing at the +14k breakpoint,.. and now the 22k one, and is finding that haste is working out extremely well, even when you need to drop the mastery down a lot to hit it. 

 

Shinafae on the other hand who is as hardcore demo as they come to my knowledge has never budged from the 8097 breakpoint.

 

They both bo amazingly well and virtually neck and neck always, though I suspect Shina has a few more pocket tricks than Zinnin gets :D

 

So, from that take away that its really more a feel and playstyle choice, yet again.  Personally Demo at 8097 haste just doesn't flow for me, without UVLS to give the fury flow of a high haste build.  After running the 14k breakpoint i'd never go back to 8097, and wish I had the gear to try out the 22k breakpoint, but I am a pair of HWF trinkets away from that..

 

My biggest hump right now with Demo is downgrading my performance to play with a new spec again.  Its fun and new, but knowing I could perform better with the spec I am most familiar with does pull some of the enjoyment out of it for me.  last night I played Demo on Nur and hated it, but I absolutely love it on Protectors.

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Excuse the swearing but...... Balls to it I will go demo when I logg on next. Lol

But have a couple of question (as always )

Gear wise

Do I keep the 4 piece bonus set or use HCWF blight hurlers and the head that drops off ordos?. I loose the 4 piece but keep the 2 set bonus?

I've recently gone 4/4 BBoY normal and already have Hc KTT what one do I use with Hc PBI ?.

This happens to me but when starting a fight I ofc use CoE and that proc's BBoY , does that happen to you ?

Well as for hijacking a post it started with you (zagam and liquid)

Now to decide whether to go 14k haste extra HoG or 13k the Doom Haste breakpoint ? , and that depends if I go haste build or mastery build?

Decisions, decisions lol

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This is a forum open to discussion - if we wanted it isolated to me and him, we woulda done PMs.  It just helps others in the community when they can see discussions, so feel free to ask, as you are doing now.

 

Keep 4pc.  Bonus Chaos Waves and HoGs are awesome.

Use BBoY - KTT does not proc off of pet attacks.  Wild Imps, Felguard, and Grimoire Felguard will be a large portion of your damage. 

Yes, CoE counts as a 'spell hit' in regards to trinket procs.  If you have a Rogue, don't bother with CoE.  Otherwise, get used to it causing some early procs.

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On the subject of the opening macro, I'll link mine below, though this is one of two openers I do, the second of which is different, but cba explaining that one.

 

Pot and precast a Soul Fire at 3 seconds (debatable, as it can proc your trinkets early, but gives extra fury and a chance at 2pc, I don't precast nowadays), then:

 

/petattack
/castsequence reset=target Grimoire: Felguard, Summon Doomguard, Corruption, Hand of Gul'dan, Shadow Bolt, Berserking, Imp Swarm, Hand of Gul'Dan, Dark Soul: Knowledge, Gloves of the Horned Nightmare, Metamorphosis, Doom
 
When I played with 22k haste I added in a second shadow bolt, but I prefer to keep it simpler when I play with around 15k.
 
Depending on when stuff procs you can fill with a ToC or Soul Fire, or cast a second Doom straight away, with BBoY at 9/10 stacks. After this I snapshot a huge drain life, then begin Soul Firing.
 
It really doesn't deviate much from this, and I prefer it as BBoY always* procs, so it's pretty routine.
 
The reason GoServ and Doomguard are at the start is that they don't pop your trinkets, and the GoServ can begin generating Fury straight away, every second counts! This is why the precasted Soul Fire is hit or miss. You then get everything out of the way, including imp swarm with meta gem having procced and berserking too.
 
Usually get into Meta at around 6-8 stacks of BBoY, depending on if you Soul Fired on the pull or not.
Edited by Liquidsteel

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Awesome thanks , always cautious about going into other ppl posts and asking X , Y , Z.

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Well I specc'd demo and after a couple of LFR runs , not doing too badly, I read up on what was posted on the forums and thankyou reading it again helped a lot, just need now to iron out the little mistakes I know I'm making, but any questions I'll post them here , I'm at work atm so can't do it now.

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Well after a weekend of doing normal and flex runs, I at last have a couple of questions

1) I've specc'd 14.8k haste and currently am specc'd 13.1k haste ATM

At 14 k haste my mastery is 129% at 13k haste it's at 138% , what would you recommend me going at

More haste for less mastery or less haste for more mastery, I also did some playing about with AMR and if I went 18k haste (that's the max I could achieve in my gear ) I would loose more mastery at 18k haste I will be sitting on 49.99% , agonisingly !!

2) what do you precast after buffing yourself up now , is it shadow bolt or molten core

3) at the moment in running at 15s a imp from demonic calling , and with TR it goes down to 10s ( I timed it ), should I use the glyph of imp swarm but read that for a troll imp swarm glyph is a minor dps increase ., would like your views ?.

Nalar

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Well after a weekend of doing normal and flex runs, I at last have a couple of questions

1) I've specc'd 14.8k haste and currently am specc'd 13.1k haste ATM

At 14 k haste my mastery is 129% at 13k haste it's at 138% , what would you recommend me going at

More haste for less mastery or less haste for more mastery, I also did some playing about with AMR and if I went 18k haste (that's the max I could achieve in my gear ) I would loose more mastery at 18k haste I will be sitting on 49.99% , agonisingly !!

2) what do you precast after buffing yourself up now , is it shadow bolt or molten core

3) at the moment in running at 15s a imp from demonic calling , and with TR it goes down to 10s ( I timed it ), should I use the glyph of imp swarm but read that for a troll imp swarm glyph is a minor dps increase ., would like your views ?.

Nalar

How much Haste or Mastery you have depends on personal preference and the encounter at hand.

 

My rule of thumb is Haste = Single target, Mastery = AoE/Cleave.

 

A good all in one is 14873, or 14880 if you are a troll. Allows easy transitions back to Destruction too.

 

I don't precast anything as Imp Swarm and Service provide me with enough Fury on the pull, and I don't want to proc my trinkets too early. If you don't use Imp Swarm, I would advise you to precast a Soul Fire. 

 

I like Imp Swarm because I'm comfortable with the spec and it gives me more fury to play with during procs, and I'm decent at gaming it with haste procs. I'd probably say to just leave it unglyphed if you're still tightening up your play in other areas.

 

My 2c

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