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theblkhawk

BrM Problems or Raid problems?

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Greetings! My 10 man guild likes to be called a progression raid guild, but we keep struggling on iron juggernaut and dark shamans. We recently cleared it, but the guild has decided to reset the raid and start fresh this week. i have never been in a serious progression guild, but I do not think reseting and starting from Immerseus is the best idea for progress. Is this normal at all for a progression guild? Thankfully our raid leader has multiple toons and agreed to lock out on her shaman to Nazgrim which is where we have stopped. I want to be heavily involved in high end raiding in WoD(mythic raiding) , and this guild wants to do the same.

I do believe I am a pretty good Brewmaster, but I do always think there are things to improve on. I feel like I am dying a lot on the Iron Juggernaut. I think it's the transition from tanking the boss to doing the bombs. I find myself increadibly low when i am done with the bombs, and it is time to taunt swap back to the boss. I have included my armory and a log of our fights all the way up to our 2 iron juggernaut wipes.

My current rotation follows something along the lines of keg smash, blackout kick, jab, jab, black out kick, to get my shuffle up and running, then I pop elusive brew at 6 stacks or more depending on the situation. I try to use guard on the bombs, and i try to save my other cooldowns for tanking the boss.

So I would like to know if there is anything my raid team or myself could do different on the iron juggernaut that could put me in the best position to help the guild one shot it everytime (besides gearing to the teeth). Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/kiljaeden/Hawkhawk/simple

http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/MCXVdt2fw4ALNYRT

Thanks!

 

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It's almost always best to reset the instance and reclear while you're progressing.  This is because the previous kills gear can be used to make the future fights easier.  If no-one can use anything from those bosses, it could be argued that it's pointless, however.

 

For you, there's definitely some thing you can do.  First off, you should be using Keg Smash more often.  Try to hold some energy when it's coming up, because that seems to be the limiting factor there.  Only 20 uses out of 28 possible (probably more like 25 possible, but still) with 4 being wasted on Mines is just inefficient.

 

I'd usually recommend using Chi Wave instead of Zen Sphere, just because Zen Sphere is so passive, compared to Chi Wave's on demand healing.  While I tanked on my Monk, I used to use a macro something like this:

 

#showtooltip Chi Wave

/cast [@player] Chi Wave

 

This would guarantee I get the first hit of my Chi Wave, and make the emergency healing comparable to Expel Harm.

 

I'd also be looking at Expel Harming more effectively.  Using it when you're below 80% health is when it's going to heal and do the most damage.

 

People also aren't rebuffing you after you die.  They need to be doing that, you need to be tossing a new Ox statue, and things need to get back to how they were, not just dealing with how they are.

 

Letting your Shuffle fall is one of the major things that led to your death in the linked parse.  It falls, and 10 seconds or less later, you get smacked one too many times.  Keep your eye on that, as there's no excuse to letting it fall.

 

You HAVE to Purify more.  You were WELL into the red for your Stagger counter when you died the first time, taking 63k per tick for 10 seconds.  You have only 3 Purify casts during the entire 3:45 fight, and this is unacceptable.  If you're leaving the boss to take mines, you should be Purifying, and only taking the DoT from the encounter, not your own stagger doubling it's damage.

 

 

Besides you, your Disc and Pally healers need a lot of work on their gameplay.

 

For your Pally, the majority of their healing came from Divine Light, and ZERO from Beacon of Light, which means that none of those Divine Lights were generating HoPo.  This is something that needs to change, and quickly, and it would easily see a 30% increase in their output.  If they'd be willing to post in our Paladin forums, I'm sure that Geoda and Fouton could take a look and try to lead them in improving.

 

For your Priest, they're throwing a lot of Shields, Stars, and Mendings, but not much else.  They could've had significantly more Divine Stars, and could've done a fair bit more healing with them.  If they're having issues with mana, tell them to stop spamming so many shields, as they're very effective, but cost a lot when you don't get Rapture refunds.  They should also almost never be using Renew, as it's just inefficient as Disc, even compared to a Heal (the spell).  They should've also had more than one Inner Focus; remember it reduces the cost of PoH as well.  They should also not bother casting Shadow Word: Pain, as it's a very large mana cost, and I bet they're sacrificing a lot of stats for extra Spirit in order to maintain that playstyle.

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After looking at the log, i think one of the times that shuffle falls off is when i switch to do crawler mines (is this the linked parse?) and it is on the second one. If the mines are not close to the boss how can I maintain shuffle? Should it just be so built up that by the time I do mines it should have something like 40 seconds or so of uptime?

Also, I do not understand what you mean with the keg smashes. 20 smashes out of a probable 25 with 4 wasted on mines? What could I have done while I was on mines to get Keg Smashes off? Is it as simple as stopping and turning and keg smashing the boss?

Since the session I've posted we've raided twice, and I have switched away from zen sphere to chi wave. I do appreciate the macro for chi wave I will try it out tonight.  I forgot to log the combat from the night we downed the juggernaut in one go, and downed the shamans in two. We are raiding again tonight, so I will post here again tomorrow with a new log hopefully with better stats.

I appreciate your help Hybrys. Thanks
 Also, is there a thread on here or on warcraft logs that can teach me how to read the data better and put different charts together?

Edited by theblkhawk

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No, what I saw was 16 casts and 16 hits with 4 immunes.  What I thought happened was you trying to Keg Smash a Mine for those 4 Immune passes, but it's also possible that your Keg Smash cleaved from the boss to a mine in those immune instances.  It's not that you should turn and Keg, it's that you should have smoother Chi gen and using it when you need it.

 

It is true that Shuffle fell after you left the boss, but you should have had more, as you said.  After that, it was the Purify that was vital to your living on that attempt.  You could've prevented 400k+ damage against you with one Chi.  Since Dampen Harm affects the mine damage, it may be possible that Shuffle and Stagger also affects mine damage.

 

There isn't, but I'm always happy to help if you're looking for anything specific, or even just my methodology to auditting different classes.

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Here are the logs from last night. Looking at them myself my shuffle up time is much better, but I still let it fall a couple of times. I can also see that my keg smashes are about 10 seconds apart instead of the 8 seconds that it probably should be. I once again let shuffle fall just before a flame vents. I think I'm going to have to get a glyph of guard to help deal with that damage.

We had a bad go at the juggernaut, and just in general a bad night of raiding with one of our main healers gone and a DPS missing. 

I think I might be playing a little too spastic with my spell casting. Is there anyway to look up a log of a good brewmaster to see what he/she is doing?

Thank you Brewmonksta for the link!

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/kiljaeden/Hawkhawk/simple

http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/k3wZafQBVYFnCWR6

Edited by theblkhawk

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Shuffle was a lot better!  That looks great.  The major thing was that you can Shuffle/Stagger the bomb damage, so you've gotta have it up for bombs.

 

Your Elusive Brew uptime is really good as well, look at a comparison vs melee hits incoming:

http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/k3wZafQBVYFnCWR6#type=damage-taken&source=82&pins=0%24Main%24%23244F4B%24damage%241%240.0.0.Any%240.0.0.Any%24true%24146021159.0.0.Monk%24false%241%5E0%24Main%24%23909049%24auras-gained%240%240.0.0.Any%240.0.0.Any%24true%24146021159.0.0.Monk%24false%24115308

 

Yellow is the uptime of EB, and the lines are successful melee hits taken.

 

Now this is an area of concern.  Chi Wave and Expel Harm casts vs damage taken.

 

http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/k3wZafQBVYFnCWR6#type=damage-taken&source=82&pins=0%24Main%24%23244F4B%24casts%240%240.0.0.Any%24146021159.0.0.Monk%24true%240.0.0.Any%24false%24115072%5E0%24Main%24%23909049%24casts%240%240.0.0.Any%24146021159.0.0.Monk%24true%240.0.0.Any%24false%24115098

 

You only used Chi Wave 2 times!  Remember that it can help others as well, so casting this when you're not taking damage is as useful as when you are taking damage!  Cast that a little more.

 

For Expel Harm, you seem to reserve it's uses for when you're eating bombs.  You should be using it any time you go below 80% health, instead of Jab.  It's integral, and you could increase both your healing and damage done quite heavily.

 

You need to Purify more!  Nearly 15% of the damage you take was avoidable by Purifying quicker.  When I was doing bombs, I would click the bomb, Expel, Purify, move to the next bomb.  If you can't Expel, toss a Keg/Jab at the boss on your way to the next bomb, and Purify.  That would reduce the damage you take from the bombs by a massive amount.

 

Also remember that Bombs count as physical attacks, so if that's still your issue, Dampen Harm does work on them.  The Glyph of Guard does NOT work on them, but would work on Vents.

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Should I have EB up more? Or am I just using it at the right time? And for the expel harm's It seems hard to tell when I am below 80% with healers constantly spamming heals. The only time I notice a dip is when I am taking a large amount of damage such as bombs or flame vents. Should I be purifying when stagger is yellow? For the most part, I am purifying when it dips into the red.

I think the Glyph of Guard would help me be at higher health coming straight off the boss for dealing with bombs. 

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Should I have EB up more? Or am I just using it at the right time? And for the expel harm's It seems hard to tell when I am below 80% with healers constantly spamming heals. The only time I notice a dip is when I am taking a large amount of damage such as bombs or flame vents. Should I be purifying when stagger is yellow? For the most part, I am purifying when it dips into the red.

I think the Glyph of Guard would help me be at higher health coming straight off the boss for dealing with bombs. 

Your EB uptime is FAIRLY good compared to your incoming damage, so I think you're doing pretty well there.

 

Expel Harm is a good practice in predicting incoming damage.  Getting used to that, and figuring out when the damage is coming will naturally help you increase the amount you use/heal with it.

 

I would only Purify when your Stagger is at red, or you're not tanking.  Since you're running around doing bombs during that time and someone else is taking the full brunt of damage, it's best to just Purify then.  I'll even Purify green staggers when I swap off, but that's just me.

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Should I be purifying when stagger is yellow? For the most part, I am purifying when it dips into the red.

Knowing when to purify will come with practice of learning fight mechanics.

 

You will get to the point where you know if purifying is appropriate based of the stagger damage already taken. Red stagger may only be red stagger for a second or two before it drops down to green/yellow if the larger stagger has run most of its course without any new significant stagger amounts being added.

 

 

 I'll even Purify green staggers when I swap off, but that's just me.

I do this also sometimes.

A perfect example for me is heading to a transition phase on garrosh. I purify as soon as the raid gets ported up so that i am not ticking damage.

Iron jugg, thok and Galakras final phase are probably the only other times where purify get extensive use.

 

Predicting the damage is what will help you as a monk tank and this will come with practice and time.

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I think I might be playing a little too spastic with my spell casting. Is there anyway to look up a log of a good brewmaster to see what he/she is doing?

 

 

As humbly as possible without sounding like a you know what, here are links to my logs. I have many rank 1's on WoL and WCL currently. I'd like to see some of your recent logs and I can help you break down what I can tell that you're doing wrong/right - I'd rather see recent ones.

 

http://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/report/cvAH72V8Md4wt6bj#boss=1606

 

 

 

But as far as one of your above questions about purifying staggered damage, I use a WeakAura that tracks the percentage of my health over 10 seconds that is being ticked away. There is a LARGE difference in purifying a 25% yellow and a 49% yellow. I do not waste Chi purifying anything below 35% as that DoT is fairly manageable with HoTs and good usage of your Gift of the Ox orbs. I constantly strafe back and forth after boss swings land to ensure that I can take care of myself with them. A red has to go immediately as you see it, greens and yellows can stay pretty easily unless above 35%.

 

Looking at Juggernaut for you it didn't seem like your Statue was up, and you used Guard three times in 3:11. You also only healing sphere'd once. It's imperative as a BrM tank that while eating mines and running to and fro to other mines that you are blanketing your path with them so you're topped off for the next mine. When the OT taunts off of you, swing on him until you gain 5 chi and then get mines. Purify after every mine as that damage is staggered. If you taunt swap at TWO for the FIRST swap and then 3 from there on out the mines will come out staggered in a way that you will have ample time to swap and then have downtime before you have to cover mines, otherwise you're going straight from swapping to sprinting to mines.

 

 

http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/TQZjBwxt4gHLRMyh#fight=1

 

As far as rotation goes, this is a log of us 2-tanking top for Dark Shaman Heroic. We do it without a healer, and no DPS up top - so just 2 tanks. This log can be a good representation of how I balance survivability and DPS and what the rotation looks like if you look at the events view. I also attached a video.

Edited by Russ30
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I really don't want to discredit you saying this but : I don't think at all we can judge a tank's performance on his dps. I play a BM Monk myself and I do enjoy my almost-1M pulls on TFP or KKDS but I prefer to consider it as a bonus. This isn't our prime task and dealing more damage often comes by sacrificing our survival to this purpose which shouldn't occur in my opinion. Of course it can be necessary to find more and more dps anywhere you can to kill a boss in progress, and we can provide that more than any other role, but ranking is another matter and never an example for tanks still learning their main job : staying alive.

Anyway, I'm glad vengeance will be gone soon. Resolve will be a very good thing though.

Edited by Nyax

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As humbly as possible without sounding like a you know what, here are links to my logs. I have many rank 1's on WoL and WCL currently. I'd like to see some of your recent logs and I can help you break down what I can tell that you're doing wrong/right - I'd rather see recent ones.

 

http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/TQZjBwxt4gHLRMyh#fight=1

 

 

Yeah, DPS ranks on a Brewmaster aren't going to credit the tank, and are instead going to credit the healer.

 

I also had several number 1 ranks during T14 on my Brewmaster, and T15 on my Windwalker, yet I understand the value of Purifying early and often during high damage or no damage phases.  And I don't feel the need to toot my own horn.

 

Stagger doesn't give Vengeance (you get the Vengeance from it the moment you Stagger the hit) so aggressively Purifying is only a loss of Chi, and shouldn't be a big one.  If you're dying and you could've prevented it or halved the incoming damage by removing a 20% Stagger, I'm going to call you out for not Purifying every day of the week.

 

Besides, your logs aren't that good.  39 / 46 possible Keg Smashes, 21 / 24 possible Chi Waves, 86% Tiger Power uptime.  You're probably just ranking because you're one of the few BrMs in 10m with a TTT and smart enough to use Grapple Weapon.

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He asked for a high-end brewmaster, and I consider 2-tanking top Shaman a very good example of survivability. I wasn't tooting my own horn, I parsed high and decided that was enough credibility to give an opinion that he might actually care to read.

 

And for your point on crediting healers, on 9/14 fights we do on Heroic currently over 40% of healing taken is my own; one look at his logs shows thats an area he needs help in. I gave him a video to show him when I was healing, and when I wasn't.

 

There's more to purifying than the rule I mentioned above as well, I simply gave a guideline. If I'm sub-50% I'm purifying, no matter the stagger. Also if you sit between 40-50% hp for a while, let your stagger tick yourself to 35, purify then get 2 expel harms off, if you sit in the 30% stagger range, it happens in 1-2 seconds.

 

As far as the Keg Smashes go, when judging 'possible keg smashes' you aren't always going to be optimal in that respect unless you're getting crazy overheals or are on farm content - many of your GCD's must be spent on expel harms and spheres -  if you'd notice many times I was forced to simply drop spheres with my GCD's and energy, and that delayed my keg smashes.

 

Chi wave possibilities? I don't see that as even a statistic as using it on CD can be an extreme waste with how powerful and clutch of a heal it is; if you'd notice I was using it during high stacks of the debuff on either tank and the heals weren't wasted.

 

Either way, all I posted for is to try to help. See it as how you want to.

Edited by Russ30

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I do appreciate your contribution, I just had a few little ticks about it, which I've expressed.  And I didn't like that you specifically mentioned your DPS ranks, as having players stuck in Normal relying on DPS ranks to tell who is good and who isn't completely misses the point of raiding in a tanking role.

 

Did you see their logs after the Chi Wave change?  It was significantly better on the healing front, though not around 40%..  There's also going to be a big difference between the two fights, as IJ is very backloaded (large ticking debuff, bombs during downtime, 3 healers) where as D-Sham is going to be frontloaded (big hits infrequently, medium hits frequently, 1 healer)

 

http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/k3wZafQBVYFnCWR6#type=healing&by=source&target=82

 

The Stagger/Purify rule is something that really gets to me, and so many players on the entire spectrum of skill rely on it as a rule instead of a guideline, so it's always something I like to reinforce.  My rule is: Always be flexible, and if you're taking too much damage, or tanks are dying on a fight, consider Purifying more often.  Don't be afraid of Purifying.  Always Purify Red.

 

 

As far as your logs go, I was analyzing it from a DPS perspective, because you came into the thread as someone who has #1 ranks.  Keg Smash is very easy to predict, and you can pool energy for it and keep the GCD free.  It is your most valuable DPS skill and Chi generator, and shouldn't be missed, in either a DPS or tanking perspective.  Chi Wave is a fair point but, again, from a DPS perspective, it should be used on cooldown.

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Again the only reason I said I had number 1 ranks was to encourage and persuade him to give my logging information a honest lookover instead of reading it as just another BrM who posted.

 

I do accept the mistakes you pointed out with less than optimal Keg Smash counts, I may have been overly careful with healing spheres instead of Keg Smashes because my Shuffle uptime was high enough and my chi set aside for purifying wasn't an issue. To make my initial point I assumed the OP posted this to have help with survivability: I feel as if me posting that I had #1 ranks forced you to assume all I care about is DPS, which is untrue - maybe I should have worded it differently and I apologize. 

 

To the OP, as I stated, we do this without a healer up top, and this is literally all survivability - rotationally (DPS wise) it is imperfect and my Chi generation is lower than "optimal"; however, my main point is do not be scared to use Healing Spheres more frequently as they generate similar healing as your Expel Harm. Also, try to make more usage of your Guards, try not to use them on CD strictly, as that can be a waste at times, but use them when you're in danger of dying to give yourself an extra 400-900k hp depending on vengeance. As a monk you will take large bursts, so this type of Guard usage will happen often.

Edited by Russ30

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      Violentnacho & the Guild
    • By LanceFW
      http://i.imgur.com/4y6HcUV.png[/img]     Valiant Vengeance was created about 7 years ago by the same leadership that is held today. We are a progression minded semi-hardcore guild who has raided since WoTLK. Each raid tier we have gotten progressively better at our pace and we plan to be a competing guild in Legion. VV raids 3 nights a week for a total of 9 hours a week.   Progression: 7/7M EN (Realm First) 2/3M ToV 8/10H NH   Raid Times: 6-9PM Pacific Raid Days Tues, Thurs, and Sun Loot System: EPGP Voice Comm: Discord   Current Recruitment Needs:   Tank Will make considerations 1 RDPS of any class . 1 Strong healer with a dps off spec as a bonus All applications regardless of role and spec will be considered if you can make our raid times and perform to our standards.   Our guild is comprised of members who have been with us for quite awhile, over several raid tiers and and expansions. We are pretty close knit and are wishing to add to the team. Just because we are progression minded and serious about raiding does not mean we do not have fun and just be friends. VV is a strictly no drama guild and any of those who wish to start it are immediately removed. If you are seeking a friendly, fun guild to raid with and be competitive with in Legion, VV is the place for you!   For any questions please add me on Btag or apply on our Guildsite. Raid Leader and Guild Master: Pyra#1209 Co-GM: Lance#1115 Guild Site: valiantvengeance.enjin.com