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Aceliyia

[Prot] Heroic Raiding Advice Request

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Hi all,

 

I've been raiding with my 25 man guild for the past 2 months as the off tank to our GM, a Blood DK. I had a few problems on Heroic Siegecrafter ranging from deaths from Siegecrafer and/or not being able to kill the shredder fast enough. I resolved those issues but its still a work in progress for myself and the guild. The week prior to the twitch video linked, I was out of range of healers but that has been resolved this past week. However, I've been receiving criticism from my raid leader that I need to use cooldowns more often (to die less) and do more DPS overall in the raid. I'm hoping to get some advice on how to do each of these things as we continue pushing into Heroic Paragons and subsequently Garrosh. Above are links to my guild's most recent raid on Siegecrafter and Paragons. Any feedback is very much appreciated!

 

-Ace

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I'll be looking into this tomorrow, and will provide a detailed response. A few questions: are the complaints you receive specific to any fights, or just overall towards your raid?

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The deaths were mainly on Siegecrafter. There were periods of time where I'd be out of range of healers but I've found a way around that by rotating the boss. The damage is presumably on all fights. There are logs and stream recordings for the past 2 weeks or so (I just seated recording both).

Thank you so much for taking the time to review this.

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Firstly, your armory shows you're using Rook's Talisman, which is probably the worst trinket for Prot Paladins. Stamina is very low in value for us since we shouldn't be getting one shot, and it's just not worth the gain in stats that Thok's Tail Tip or Prismatic Prison of Pride would give us. If your raid leader is giving TTT to melee rather than you, he's harming the raid more than he can imagine. You're missing out on 3k stats of haste/mastery, which will make a big deal in your survival. I personally use double amp trinkets, which gives me a combined total of 7k stats (since the amp trinkets are multiplicative).

 

Secondly, for your Siegecrafter kill, you didn't use Guardian of Ancient Kings once. Considering this is your biggest CD, that is a big problem for keeping yourself alive. I noticed on your strat that you are simply going to 3 stacks of Electrostatic Discharge. Did you guys try doing the strat where you keep stacks rolling high? This is likely what's causing you to have trouble killing them in time. Constantly rotating who does Shredders means you won't always have high burst available. The strat my guild used was that the MT took 3, killed shredder with all CDs up, took 2 more, killed shredder easily since 5 stacks, took 2 more, facerolled shredder with 7 stacks, let it drop. This would mean the OT has 6 stacks for the 4th shredder, and then lets their stacks drop. Next time around the MT gets 4 stacks, has a slightly easier time with shredder, 5 stacks, kills it again, and 7 stacks for another faceroll. The OT usually never got a 2nd shredder.

 

When taking the debuffs to kill shredders, here's the order of CDs I use:

As Main Tank (2 lists since the two buildups happen differently)

1: Nothing. 2: Nothing. 3: Divine Protection -- 4. Divine Protection 5. Guardian of Ancient Kings -- 6. Divine Protection (Cloak Proc) 7. Argent Defender

1: Nothing. 2: Nothing. 3: Divine Protection 4. Cloak Proc (sometimes) -- 5. Guardian of Ancient Kings -- 6. Divine Protection (Cloak Proc) 7. Argent Defender

As Off Tank (1 list since you don't really get far into it)

1: Nothing. 2: Divine Protection -- 3: Divine Protection -- 4: Divine Protection 5: Guardian of Ancient Kings 6: Argent Defender

 

This should make sure the electrostatic charge doesn't kill you, but it also leaves you pretty open from melee swings. There's hardly anything I found that we could do about this, which means healers have to give you extra attention when Siegecrafter enlarges due to an add dying on the belt/shredder dying. I've had him throw two melee swings at me within 1 second that did a total of 1.5M damage, and it's just not something you can stop. Getting an external CD to last through the duration of Siegecrafter's buff is highly suggested, getting big bubbles or holy paladin spam could also give you enough absorbs to live it. This really is on the healers to do their best to keep you alive. The other option is go Sacred Shield, but it's much less consistent and would likely remain a problem. I didn't even bother trying this solution.

 

For the random deaths, it could be the positioning of your strat, I know at some points I have to pull the boss out towards the group due to where they stand during a very obnoxious split overcharged mines spawning phase, and without that movement we would always wipe. I notice at this point its 17:17 on your video, which your raid is pretty much standing on where mines spawn. This is where my raid would be stacked a bit farther back, and I'd tank siege on Green (giving melee easier cleave, and the far mines would have to pass through siege for more cleave too). You die shortly afterwards since the raid was blown up from mines.

 

I can also see an issue in the way the tanking has been going. Sometimes your DK tank doesn't taunt off you as your final stack of electrostatic magnet comes out, and you take a punch from siege and a shredder. The best example of this is right here: http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/PgFTRhL9KtG7MmYH#type=deaths&source=19&fight=4

You pretty auto-died on that one, getting hit for 1M damage in literally the same millisecond. You should never have to tank both bosses at once, so that if you have a lapse in your SoTR (which wont be your fault) you wont instantly die.

 

As for your damage, there isn't really much more you can do to shredders with the strat you are using and the gear you have. I have double amps which makes a fair different for the DPS, and the thok's proc helps as well. Outside of Siegecrafter, Prot paladins have the lowest damage output of all tanks in general. That's why 50% of the fights have some other tank class at the top of ranking meters, and no number of paladins. What keeps your raid spot should be damage taken being much lower than anyone else, but we're also not the best at that, so its a bit rough of paladins. Overall we do fine and can pull our own, but were not the best of the best.

 

As for your DPS for the rest of Siege; you're an offtank. You get the shittier job which provides less vengeance. Immerseus you don't get to AoE, and often times there's almost no value in you even taunting. FP you get put on He which winds you up in the middle of nowhere so noxious poison doesn't land on the raid, Galakras you're going up, Iron Juggernaut you get less tanking time, Malkorok you're not soloing bloodrage. As for the rest of it, you don't have amp trinkets, you don't have better vengeance, and you're a lesser dps class.

 

If there's anything else you have questions about, or would like advise on, let me know!

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Fouton, thank you SO MUCH for taking the time to sift through and write ALL of that. That's extremely helpful and I really appreciate it. I'll bring the information to my Officers and go from there. I actually have the Herioc Prismatic Prison in my bag (I just got it last Tuesday) so I'll get it upgraded and start using it. I was also noticing that I'm not casting Judgement / Crusader strike enough which would obviously give me considerably more Holy Power. I think on Average I'm using Judgement every ~5.5 seconds even though it has a ~4 second cooldown. I know this would help considerably but I'm also looking for ways to improve besides this. Beyond that, I know we've talked about changing up our strategy for shredders we just haven't attempted it.

 

Thanks again Fouton. I truly, truly appreciate it!

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this isn't directly referring to you, but give your ret those hit/haste bracers. Seeing that hit reforge hurts my eyes.

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Nah those bracers are BiS tongue.png check my armoury, you'll be even more sad tongue.png it's impossible for a 580+ prot paladin to get under hit cap if they're gearing right >.<

And yeah I hadn't done the math on your CS/J, so I didn't quite notice it. It would be a good gain to work on though, maybe 5% to SoTR

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not for ret especially if you are doing 50% haste/crit build, which anyone above 580 should be doing

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I meant prot, since it's a prot thread :P

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hence why I said not referring to her/him/possible animal (I don't judge) you know I can't resist looking at rets (I have a bad habit of looking at every single ret I notice and if I meet someone I go through their guild and find their most progressed ret :P because I like helping rets for the betterment of rets :D

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Watching just the first few minutes of the pull it seems like you're taking way too much fire damage. Try to avoid that if at all possible, it's extra damage the healers are having to heal. At one point I saw 4 stacks while just making the run back after killing the Shredder. 

 

Also, try to be a little more liberal with your Devo. There's a few times that spike damage gets the raid down below 20% and starts picking off players that may have the fire debuff. Devo will help tremendously in those circumstances.

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