Emsy

25H SoO Holy Pally - Help me not suck please?

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Hi guys.

 

I've recently (this is my 2nd week) started healing heroic SoO 25man with an experienced guild. I am copping huge flak from the RL for underperforming. I really want to improve, and I'm looking for some advice.

 

First of all - about me.

 

Am a cata baby, holy pally was my 1st toon and main. (My main alt is a spriest.) Have been healing ever since, but only raid healing since MoP. This is my first experience with heroic anything.

 

This is my toon http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/nagrand/Anykey/advanced

 

and here's logs from last night

http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/QwFB1Zgypm6NaqHv

 

Healing team makeup:

These guys have just put 2 13/14H 10man groups together. The other healers are:

 

2   580+ druids (not quite sure ilvl)

1   584 shaman

1   579 disc priest

1   575 druid

1   569 holy pally (me)

1   568 druid (my bf)

 

Some of these get rotated in and out but last week in a couple bosses we were playing with 7 healers.

 

Some of my questions:

 

Which CDs do you use on cooldown and which do you save for "oh shit" moments? Is there any way of macroing them to, say, judgement or something?

 

Is it even possible for me to do comparable healing with these guys at this stage?

 

I feel that between the overhealing druids and the disc priest with his zorbs I'm not getting heals in - is this how it works or am I just sucky and using it as an excuse? It seems to me that the more healers we have, the less heals I do. 

 

I've tried EF and with the 25man it just doesn't seem to do as much for me. Shuttle suggested to me on Twitter to try stacking mastery and go SH which I have been. Looking at maybe dropping a bit of spirit to get to 11050 haste or thereabouts. 

 

I know meters are not what you judge a pally by, but that's what the RL goes by. He used to raid with a HPal that went to join blood legion, so he expects awesomeness from me too.

 

So - how can I not suck, please? I very much appreciate any help!

 

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You can go as low as you possibly can on Selfless Healer and be okay, it's played by most at around 9-10k. It's a fairly rotational spec, but it really pushes the healing to a maximum with absorbs, the spec is kinda based around raid-wide mastery bubbles. The biggest issue I can see is that you seem to be using all your spells to generate holy power and pump out Light of Dawns, but you're hardly using Holy Radiance. You can often just rotate through the rotation of Judge > Holy Shock > Holy Radiance > Light of Dawn, or even hold onto LoD for a bit to pop double in a row when big stuff is coming (5 HP, LoD, HR, LoD).

(How I can see that: http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/QwFB1Zgypm6NaqHv#type=casts&source=15)

 

It also looks like you're being too conservative, your CDs aren't even popped in some of these fights. Fights like Spoils are very repetitive. You have two 3 minute rooms, so this means you can pop Wings and Divine Favor on each side, so using one with the first big mob, and one with the second, meaning you can do the same on the next side. That wil also leave GoAK to be a safety CD when you need it, though the later you pop it in 1 room means you have to wait that long to pop it on the next room. You've also got Holy Avenger, and this is where it becomes silly because you can see how theres infinite CDs at your disposal, so just picking mechanics that hit hard and assigning CDs to them personally is a good step to handling other, less straight forward fights. I personally like to hold onto GoAK, but that's mainly because I play a Prot Paladin main and it's my savior as Prot, so Geoda would be able to break down CDs better than I can.

 

Also, your Prot Paladin is TERRIBLE. He doesn't use Shield of the Righteous AT ALL. Seriously bring this up to your raid leader RIGHT AWAY. I dont want to turn this into an attack on him, but he doesn't use CS/HotR  compared to most other spells (most important spell in his rotation), he casts Eternal Flame spamming it (so it has 0 stacks of Bastion of Glory), and doesnt put up his active mitigation. You will not get far with this guy.

 

There's probably more to talk about in terms of your heals, but thats as much as I can see.

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Thanks for that, Fouton. More HR you reckon! So far most people have said I need to use my CDs more. I'll have to stop being afraid of wasting them and just use them. 

 

Re the prot pally... he's the top pally tank in our server and he hardly ever dies but he does heal sometimes more than me. In the fight you linked, SotR was his 2nd most used ability, how do you figure that's not good?

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I guess I'm looking at a 3rd tank, I mean Missnofun. What they're doing is... just no.

 

I guess they were a carry alt or something.

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Hey! This will be a quick little post before my drive to work.. but wanted to spark some discussion.

 

Based solely on your post and foutons reply (I haven't looked at logs yet), you may want to first understand the 'rotation' of SH. Like Fouton pointed out, you can kind of just use the same spells over and over and do fairly well. I suggest switching Holy Shock and Holy Radiance and use the 'rotation' of Judgment, Holy Radiance, Holy Shock, Light of Dawn, repeat. Switching HS and HR will allow your Daybreak proc to splash heal a few people to give some free heals.

 

On to CD's. This, in my opinion, is what really distinguishes the HPS and skill of a Holy Paladin. Since most of our spells are mediocore at best, we need a way to really ramp up our numbers. This is where our CD's come into play. We have probably one of the best CD's of all the healing classes. Increasing our mastery, haste and total heals by X% is a huge boost, and if used properly can leave the other healers in the dust! ;)

 

It's very hard to tell people when to use CD's since healing is a very reactionary position. But if you break down a progression fight to timers, it may open up your mind and ability to know when to use your CD's. Let's break down a made up boss to help take away any bias' towards certain CD rotations:

 

- Let's say a boss has an 8 min enrage timer and with all your progression pulls, you realize that the only way you're going to kill this guy is if you get lucky and kill him 1 sec before he enrages.

- That said, you have 8 minutes to play around with your CD's. Let's look at what CD's you have and how I feel they are best used:

  • Avenging Wrath: 3 Min CD = This is your all out best CD that increases your heals by 20%. Use this when there's heavy damage.
  • Holy Avenger: 2 min CD = This is your HP generating CD. Use this when you want to really get some strong bubbles on the raid. Use a rotation like.. Judgement, LoD, HS, LoD, HR, LoD, repeat
  • GotAK: 3 min CD = More or less your Holy Shit CD. But still, with a 3 min CD you can be relaxed with it and use it whenever you need some strong single target/stacked heals.
  • Divine Favor: 2 min CD (with 4 pc) = With a 4 pc, this is an amazing CD to use with Holy Avenger (And I say this as a person that hates stacking CD's). But if used properly you can really ramp up your HR casts and build up some bubbles on the raid.

Okay, so now looking at your CD's you can use them:

  • AW = 3 times total in an 8 min fight
  • HA = 4 times total in an 8 min fight
  • GotAK = 3 times total in an 8 min fight
  • DF = 4 times total in an 8 min fight

- Wow. You can use a total of 14 CD's within an 8 min fight?! That's amazing. Yup, yup it is. Now the tricky part is knowing when to use them. During a progression fight you start to see the same type of damage taken and damage spikes over the course of the fight. You may then start gauging when to use your CD's at what time. But knowing you always have a CD in your back pocket, maybe start to use them more frequently when you see high damage or know when damage is going to be going out. 

 

I can go into further detail on when I personally use my CD's if you'd like, or you can learn on your own. My signature has some old parses (I haven't raided in like 5 weeks and lost a lot of rankings ): ) but I feel I did a pretty good job with my CD rotations and knowing when to use them.

 

Welp, time to drive to work I'll be on the forums in like 45 min :D

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That cooldown breakdown was really helpful, now that my prot and ret sets are nearly complete I've been getting a lot of holy gear, once I've got a full set I wanna run through SoO normal as holy for fun. Already done it on my resto shammy alt so I know when the damage is high and the type of damage to anticipate, working out which cooldown is suitable for what is really useful.

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BTW: you are gemming for mastery. I would opt (and do myself) for gemming intellect to the max to increase your raw spell power, which in turns also boosts your mastery. This is true for both EF and SH build imo, since spirit is a non-issue in the latter, and pretty much also in the former (altho your 'cap' should probably be higher). One point of intellect is generally considered worth more than two points of mastery.

 

So all those artful's in red sockets should be pure int aso.

 

And two small things:

#1 a non-blue hybrid in a blue socket is just weird smile.png (as in, there's always one stat that you gem for, so if not getting a socket bonus, you should gem that stat purely and not hybrid). 

#2 unless trying to reach haste breakpoints (which you don't as you're at least currently built with SH), you should generally have the same type of hybrids, but you have one reckless and 13 artful orange gems for no apparent reason?

 

I know this was mostly about CDs, but couldn't help looking ...

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I tried to post this last night but mustn't have actually posted.

 

 

 

Geoda! Thank you man. Wish i had time to reply right now - but it's past midnight we've just finished raid and i've got work in the morning.

 

I felt that I'd improved tonight. http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/thXWB4gMDYQTVJKp#type=summary&fight=7

 

however the RL mustn't have agreed cos he swapped me out to my priest. sad.png

 

I will not give up the good fight! Holy Pallies forever! 

 

I will log on tomorrow and chat to you bout stuff still - just cos I'm out of that team doesn't mean i don't wanna learn! smile.png

 

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 I suggest switching Holy Shock and Holy Radiance and use the 'rotation' of Judgment, Holy Radiance, Holy Shock, Light of Dawn, repeat. Switching HS and HR will allow your Daybreak proc to splash heal a few people to give some free heals.

 

 

Yep, this is what i've been doing. Just feels like the most efficient way to use all the procs / buffs etc.

 

As for CDs... as I was learning how the fights worked I was figuring out the best time to use them. I also have Engi on that toon, extra 1k int on demand doesn't suck.

 

 

Guess I should have learned to unsuck faster. Still - as I said - I shan't give up! 

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BTW: you are gemming for mastery. I would opt (and do myself) for gemming intellect to the max to increase your raw spell power, which in turns also boosts your mastery. This is true for both EF and SH build imo, since spirit is a non-issue in the latter, and pretty much also in the former (altho your 'cap' should probably be higher). One point of intellect is generally considered worth more than two points of mastery.

 

So all those artful's in red sockets should be pure int aso.

 

 

I had pure int gems in most of my gear when I first went in, but soon found that nothing much was happening. With that healing team, the best I can do is try and chuck some shields and bubbles on people... so I went with the all mastery build.

 

Were it 10 man, i'd go with a lot more int and an EF build. That blue gem doe... idk man, must have escaped me :P Thank you for the feedback (and this is not just about CDs it's about improving in general, so everything helps and I'll take every little bit.)

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Hi Guys! It's me again...  You were so wonderfully helpful last time, thought I'd try again.

 

So everything was going fine until BRF, what the hell is happening to me I went from doing well to sucking again. My illuminated healing is 4th or 5th half the time, is it because of the PSW spam from disc priest, or because of 2nd stats, or? 

 

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/CjxPrck6YzKpnNF1#type=healing&fight=6&source=9

 

Hope someone sees this... Cheers guys <3

 

(I posted this in EJ but got no replies after at least a week so I deleted that post.)

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First of all - 13 min fight its omg. Our guild killed them at ~9.30min with lot of dead dps after 100 boss energy. Smth wrong with  your raid-dps.

Try to use AW more often, you start use it after ~6 min of fight. Shock on cd, i have a bit lower count, but fight was 3min less

 

Your mastery 0, its okay it's on 4-5th place. Probably against Kromog or grull it will be  2-3, but maidens do spike raid dmg, and when it hit next time, your shield from mastery fades, and absorb nothing. But again, mastery not good stat for hpal, your passive 10% is already good buff for heal, better stack crit/haste/multistrike.

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Thanks Elarion. I wasn't healing until a few min into the fight because nobody was taking damage, and since the previous attempts were so long I was aiming to conserve mana for the end of fight which is more intense, and the other guys are usually OOM by then because some of them will spam shit to pad meters even tho there's very little damage going out. (As an example, for Furnace we split in two, my side is me and the shaman, we heal maybe 12-13k each and everyone is on full health until p2. On the other side the druid and the priest are healing 40K each and people are on half health. Idk what that's about.)

Thanks for the reassurance re mastery. I have been trying to stack crit but the gear is what it is and I can't reforge sad.png

 

Do you have logs for your guild? I'm curious to see what sort of deeps you guys are doing compared to ours, to get a much faster kill. :)

Edited by Emsy

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https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/FjmVgyYDGt8kh3TL#fight=13&type=damage-done

Our guild have a higher itmlvl, but it's not shoud be 3 min difference. Also our adk,fire-mage and combat rogue played bad this fight, their dmg very low(bit higher than pally-tank). And even so, i think with this gear 50% of our raid dd coud do more(+5-7k dps).

 

Your damage dealers shoud read some guides(or check logs), couse they using wrong specs for this fight - mages, warriors. Elem-sham using wrong rotation, bdk seems don't know smth, couse our 680 did 40+ and he 24 with 679. And other stuff, i dont know about other clases, but probably they coud do better too.

 

Also i do not reccomend using HolyRadiance, its rly bad thing =) 7casts ~ 80к mana for 50k(+50*0.15 for beacon) heal kinda too high(holy light healing ~30+15+15 from beacons for 3k). I use it only with AW and HolyShock proc and when raid got hit hard, and even so, HolyLight will be better for most cases(couse with AW you got proc every shock, and shoc cast every 3 sec or even less).

Edited by Elarion
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      You can export selected features, share or receive profiles from other VuhDo users.
      To be able to receive a profile you have to go to 'Tools->Share->Receive Data' and tick 'Enable'.
      To share a profile you should click on a button 'Share' in the 'Send Profile' area. A new window will pop up: a dropdown menu with a line where you can type specific player's name and server. The dropdown menu will show your online guildies and people you are in group / raid with (disregarding of them having or not having VuhDo).

       
      Here's an example of my VuhDo profiles:
      I made a UI screenshot with opened talent tree and VuhDo HoT assignments.
      Key Layouts (how I assign spells to mouse): remember they are configured separately from the main setup and you have to import them separately too in Tools->Key Layouts->Import

      In 5-man HoT icons I track only my HoTs because obviously there are no other healers. Threat and personal CDs people may use are being tracked through Indicators (General->Advanced->Indicators). In this bouquet everyone should add his group specifics if you are aiming for Mythic+: I found a bit redundant to keep there damage mitigation abilities for all the classes.
      Regarding the Hot Keys you see on the screen - it may be a bit confusing because I don't really use all of them but:
      1,2,3 - dps abilities
      = - Tranq
      F1 - Barkskin
      F2 - Dash
      F4 - Inner
      F - Efflorescence
      G - shapeshift
      Q - Artifact spell
      D - Ironbark mouseover macro
      J - Cenarion Ward mouseover macro
      E,H - interrupts
      T - Flourish
       
      The raid setup:
      I'm raiding Mythic so my healing frames are tuned for 20-man.

      As you can see, HoT icon section changed - now I track what other healers are doing too so we wouldn't overlap with the healing and I'm be sure that assigned damage mitigation spells are used.
      The actual strings to import are in this separate thread because it's technically problematic to update them here in guide.
       
      I have to say that there are loads of options that I didn’t speak about here. But I tried to keep it short and basic.
      I always can answer any of your questions about VuhDo or you can continue to dig it by yourselves.
    • By Ohta
      The Odyssey [Alliance - Sargeras] is currently recruiting members for our roster update heading into mythic raiding in Nighthold! We are a heroic raiding guild (formed in MoP) that has always had the capacity and intent for mythic raiding, but due to not having 20 consistent raiders, never had the chance to. We currently raid Sunday from 5:00pm CST to 9:30 CST, and Monday from 8:000PM CST to 9:30 PM CST, using the time efficiently to down bosses and clear content. We keep a friendly atmosphere in the guild through an active discord channel and by running other content in WoW (mythic +'s/kharazan(nightbane)/emissaries/etc.). Raids are ran with a positive attitude and the intent of having a pleasant time, while focusing for boss encounters to efficiently clear content in a timely manner (We have always aimed to at least get AOTC for every raid tier). We expect players to come in prepared for raid time in order to make the best use of it; this means logging on 10-15 minutes before raid, having flasks,food,and pots ready, and knowing the fights and your class. We have a core group of 13 raiders that has been raiding together since WoD, and are looking for players for all roles to expand our team for eventual mythic progression in Nighthold. If you are interested please message me with your class/spec/ilvl and raiding experience, and any other questions you may have. We would prefer players with some experience and at least 865ilvl, but any promising and motivated players will be considered!
    • By Reikettsu
      Like A Boss - 7/7H & 3/3H Recruiting All Players for our raid group and for Mythics+.
       
      About us:
      Like A Boss was founded during WotLK by a small group of real life friends. We are formerly a 10-man Heroic raiding guild that raided throughout WotLK and went on a hiatus mid-Cataclysm. We are a semi-hardcore guild, and are looking for dedicated members who are able to make majority (if not all) of our scheduled raids or any players interested in joining our Mythics+. Our guild is mostly active at night, anywhere from 5pm PST till about 12am PST (varies). We have a casual-ish atmosphere with a serious desire for progression.
       
      What we are looking for:
      We currently have 15 raiders and we are looking to recruit more members to join our flexible raid roster so that we may progress into Mythic raids (requires 20). At this moment, we are open to all players; we are seeking out tanks, healers, and DPS (prefer ranged). We are open to both new and returning players. As mentioned above, we are also seeking players (any class/spec) that may be interested in joining our Mythics+. We run Mythics+ almost every night. While we prefer a geared player, we value a positive attitude over experience. Any players who are interested and active at the times mentioned above, please contact us. We are also open to players interested in a "filler" type role (can make some raid days but not all).
       
      Additional information and scheduled raids:
      Our raids are currently on Tues/Wed/Sun from 6:30pm PST till 8:30pm PST and we use Curse for our raids. RCLoot Council is a required add-on if you plan to raid with us. We typically try out new recruits for at least a week or two to ensure that it is a good fit for both the recruit as well as our guild. We encourage trials to join us in raids, dungeons, our VOIP, and/or even in other games. Raid spots are not guaranteed due to the flexible raid roster.
       
      Contact:
      If you are interested in our guild or want to know more, please message/add Shells-Bloodscalp or Ryozul#1598. For the horde!
    • By molodirazz
      All applications will be reviewed and considered however if you are playing a class/spec combination we need then your chances of joining will be higher.
      A little bit of info about us:
      We are a group of friends and serious raiders on EU Twisting Nether looking to recruit skilled like-minded players into our roster for Mythic Legion raids. We will offer a sociable and fun raiding environment while maintaining a strong desire for progression. Our Discord is very active and we encourage all members to chat and play together not only for raids.

      We currently raid Wednesday, Sunday and Tuesday 19:00-22:00 server time. We run social/alt raids during off days in which all ranks of the guild are welcome to come to. Our members also play other games outside raid times together where anyone is also welcome to join(LoL, Dota, HotS, Overwatch etc.).
      Our loot system for Mythic is RC Loot Council.
      What we expect from you:
      - We are a raiding guild with a 3 days a week schedule that you are expected to attend. However we understand things can come up but please let us know.
      - Be able to speak and understand the English language and not be afraid to communicate with other members during raids.
      - Actively doing dungeons and world quests to gear in preparation for raids. This includes improving your artifact weapon.
      - Have a strong understanding of the current raid tier and be able to play your class to it's potential.
      - Always come to raids prepared (i.e. bringing food and potions, etc).
      - Come fully gemmed and enchanted with the correct stats for your class and spec.
      - Access to Discord and a working microphone.
      - Have a computer that can handle 20 man raiding.
      - Exorsus Raid Tools and RC Loot Council addons installed. We may ask you to install others.
      ____________________________________________________
      To join into our current main raids
      - 865 ilvl
      - 25 traits at the very least.
      - Experience on 4 or more bosses in EN Mythic.
      You will receive a response within 3 days but probably within 1. The trial process will last 2 weeks, sometimes longer. During the trial period you will not have loot priority over raiders however you may of course still roll.
      If you have any further questions please contact us at battletags: Vims#21684  or go to our website http://asylum-tn.enjin.com/ .
      __________________________________________________________________________________
      We're currently looking for the classes below but may consider other classes as well.
      All applications will be reviewed and considered however if you are playing a class/spec combination we need then your chances of joining will be higher.
      A little bit of info about us:
      We are a group of friends and serious raiders on EU Twisting Nether looking to recruit skilled like-minded players into our roster for Mythic Legion raids. We will offer a sociable and fun raiding environment while maintaining a strong desire for progression. Our Discord is very active and we encourage all members to chat and play together not only for raids.

      We currently raid Wednesday, Sunday and Tuesday 19:00-22:00 server time. We run social/alt raids during off days in which all ranks of the guild are welcome to come to. Our members also play other games outside raid times together where anyone is also welcome to join(LoL, Dota, HotS, Overwatch etc.).
      Our loot system for Mythic is RC Loot Council.
      What we expect from you:
      - We are a raiding guild with a 3 days a week schedule that you are expected to attend. However we understand things can come up but please let us know.
      - Be able to speak and understand the English language and not be afraid to communicate with other members during raids.
      - Actively doing dungeons and world quests to gear in preparation for raids. This includes improving your artifact weapon.
      - Have a strong understanding of the current raid tier and be able to play your class to it's potential.
      - Always come to raids prepared (i.e. bringing food and potions, etc).
      - Come fully gemmed and enchanted with the correct stats for your class and spec.
      - Access to Discord and a working microphone.
      - Have a computer that can handle 20 man raiding.
      - Exorsus Raid Tools and RC Loot Council addons installed. We may ask you to install others.
      ____________________________________________________
      To join into our current main raids
      - 875 ilvl
      - 35 traits at least.
      - 5 or more Mythic boss kills.
      You will receive a response within 3 days but probably within 1. The trial process will last 2 weeks, sometimes longer. During the trial period you will not have loot priority over raiders however you may of course still roll.
      If you have any further questions please contact us at battletags: Vims#21684 or go to our website http://asylum-tn.enjin.com/ .
      __________________________________________________________________________________
      We're currently looking for the classes below but may consider other classes as well.
      Monk: Brewmaster.
      Druid: Balance and Guardian.
      Priest: Shadow
      Other dps will also be considered.
    • By Vandara
      Hi experts,
      I started with healing again in raids and mythics(+) and I followed the advice here to go for Int/haste first. it would be very nice if someone would tale the time to look at my equipment:
      http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/Area-52/Vandara/advanced
      and let me know if you have any hints for me if I should change my stats priority/enchantments etc. I think I could need a bigger Mana pool also.
      I just joined a hc raid group as a heal and I was not doing too bad, however I'd like to get better :-) Thank you so much for your help, it is really appreciated.
      Vandara